Conference Tourney or Bust

[3star_recruit]

5 minutes ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

I agree that on paper the incoming talent is great. I imagine Jimmerson will be similar to Wiley but hopefully healthy and thus more consistent. I imagine Perkins will be unique compared to this year's roster. Hargrove is another athlete with a slashers first mentality. Yuri is unique in that he's a true point guard. But I am concerned about his size. I am also concerned with JGood not having the ball in his hands because that seemed to hurt him earlier this year when Isabell was running the point. Im really hoping for a stretch four/high post kind of big.

I was also optimistic about the incoming class this year and didn't foresee any issues. I hope you are right and they impress next year. We cannot keep having high expectations with results that fall short of those expectations if we want to build the type of long-term success we desire. 

I understand your reservations about Yuri's size but Goodwin will get easier shots playing with Yuri and multiple shooters than he's getting now.

[SouthSide_Billiken]

Just now, 3star_recruit said:

I understand your reservations about Yuri's size but Goodwin will get easier shots playing with Yuri and multiple shooters than he's getting now.

Hope the coaching puts them in a position to succeed. That's what I am most skeptical about. As our talent has improved our ability to score has not.

[White Pelican]

2 hours ago, NextYearBill said:

road loss against a tough team, heart-breaker against another tough team

YEP SEASONS OVER - TIME TO QUIT

bunch of f-ing ninnys on this board. when life punches you in the face, go hide in your room. victim mentality  

im ready to go to war the rest of the season. i hope the team is too

 

I can't help but note your feelings on this versus the irony of your username.

I've been a fan for a LONG fuoking time and there have been more "next years" than I care to remember.

 

[Bonner89]

3 hours ago, slufan13 said:

It's part of his job. The St Louis media holds nobody accountable. Ramsey and Earl probably would have made excuses for him. It's not a huge deal but its weak and unprofessional to handle it the way he did

Bernie Miklasz is the only one that does.

I hope he rips Ford a new one on Monday. 

[almaman]

Two seasons in a row what Ford had assembled was  blown up by off court junk. What he's done both years cannot be assessed without acknowledging this. I think he's done a reasonable job of it considering how many players he's been deprived of using. Unless rules change dramatically a coach will never miss a free throw.

[AnkielBreakers]

Statistically, this thread makes sense. However, there is no reason to panic. We can still be on path for 4 losses in the conference, and an A10 championship. There are always surprises, no matter how much you try to plan things out.  It is common for one loss to follow another. The important thing is to beat Richmond and build from there. 

[gravilst]

Since Ford has came to SLU he has done a lot of things really well.  While I question his offense plan with the current talent, its hard to judge him really.  Last year he ran a pretty good offense with what he had (in spite of losing Bishop, Graves, and Henriquez).  We all complained about lack of depth and having to rely on Hines, and yet the offense was much better.   This year, who knows what could have been with Gordon, Santos, and Welmer going forward.    This isnt even taking into count all the injuries that have been going on.   Ford deserves credit and a chance, but the fan''s frustration with offense efficiency is warranted.   I'm remaining optimistic that the team is still working things out.  It shouldnt take this long, but the silly turnovers and miss communication with passing lanes "should" improve.   I still think SLU will come away with 22 wins this season.  While that may not be what some expected from this team, that certainly is better than what we have seen for quite some time.  I love this team"s "will to win".  This team is determined and while things are not going as planed, they are fighting for every win and appear to give max effort constantly.  Just remember what TI said a few days ago.  Hard to say that Ford isn't in someway partially responsible for this.    Also its great to see that following TI tweet, one of our great recruits for next year immediately retweeted saying this was exactly why he picked SLU.  Losses suck, especially when we had the chance to win in our hands 2x at the end.  S**t happens, move on and focus on next game.  #TEAMBLUE

 

[slufanskip]

12 hours ago, RiseAndGrind said:

3 star you are one of my favorites but i don’t see this roster ever getting any better with Ford. If he can’t  run through the a10 This season then be never will 

Really? It seems to me the difference between us and a tourney team is the ability to shoot. We have Javonte Perkins shooting 36% from the 3 plus Gibson Jimerson who is considered one of the best shooters in the country coming in. 

All this talk about this being Ford's fault … He expected to have a much different roster this year. By the time Sit 2 happened it was basically too late to add much to this years frosh class. However, he looks to be adding what we need for next year. We still need a big but I expect him to get it done. The issues that caused the players in Sit 2 or Santos to leave cannot be laid upon Ford's shoulders. Also with Gordon, which of us wouldn't have rolled the dice and taken him regardless of the problems? 

[Clock_Tower]

3 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Really? It seems to me the difference between us and a tourney team is the ability to shoot. We have Javonte Perkins shooting 36% from the 3 plus Gibson Jimerson who is considered one of the best shooters in the country coming in. 

All this talk about this being Ford's fault … He expected to have a much different roster this year. By the time Sit 2 happened it was basically too late to add much to this years frosh class. However, he looks to be adding what we need for next year. We still need a big but I expect him to get it done. The issues that caused the players in Sit 2 or Santos to leave cannot be laid upon Ford's shoulders. Also with Gordon, which of us wouldn't have rolled the dice and taken him regardless of the problems? 

Finally.  Some sanity in this thread.

If Coach Ford is fair game then so are some of the posters.

Venice.  If you (and others) think/thought that Welmer was a critical player for us this year, then you know little about basketball

Moytoy.  This season is not over.  We are not going to win the A10 and no one should have predicted the same.  This team cannot shoot and conference champs need to shoot. At the same time, this is our best season in quite awhile.  Enjoy it.

3 Star.   Where is all this great talent that Ford is not utilizing. Sorry, I just don't see it.  And no, more Grad Transfers are not the answer if they look like Isabell and Wiley.

Southside.  Follow the team a little more before making foolish comments like you don't see a plan with Coach Ford's recruiting.  Then again, maybe you do follow but just cannot see it so I will help.  Yes, we could sure use help this year at the guard position.  Outside shooting was a problem last year and this year.  The plan was Henriquez -- an experienced quality outside shooter who never played a minute because of Dr. Fred and the Title IX idiots.  He would be a Senior this year and help the defenses honest.  Ty  Graves would also help shoot 3 pointers and not allow Davidson to pack the lane.  We also would have a had help at the PG with Bishop and Graves.  After S2 caused us to lose 3 guards/outside shooting last Spring, Coach Ford brought in 2 Grad Transfers (Isabell and Wiley) and while both were advertised as immediate help and good outside shooters, both have not lived up to the high expectations of many.  Coach Ford also tried to find last minute outside shooting help overseas with Thor -- who had injuries and just wasn't ready/up to the task.  And our guards we do have, Goodwin and Fred Thatch were never brought in to be the team's sharpshooters.  Landing guys in the Spring (last minute) is tough to do.   The more reliable way is to land incoming Frosh -- and Coach Ford appears to have done that with Jimmerson, and Perkins (perimeter shooting) to go along with Yuri and Hargrove (also not sharpshooters).  And why do you imagine Jimmerson as being similar to Wiley?   I sure hope not.

[moytoy12]

10 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Finally.  Some sanity in this thread.

If Coach Ford is fair game then so are some of the posters.

Venice.  If you (and others) think/thought that Welmer was a critical player for us this year, then you know little about basketball

Moytoy.  This season is not over.  We are not going to win the A10 and no one should have predicted the same.  This team cannot shoot and conference champs need to shoot. At the same time, this is our best season in quite awhile.  Enjoy it.

3 Star.   Where is all this great talent that Ford is not utilizing. Sorry, I just don't see it.  And no, more Grad Transfers are not the answer if they look like Isabell and Wiley.

Southside.  Follow the team a little more before making foolish comments like you don't see a plan with Coach Ford's recruiting.  Then again, maybe you do follow but just cannot see it so I will help.  Yes, we could sure use help this year at the guard position.  Outside shooting was a problem last year and this year.  The plan was Henriquez -- an experienced quality outside shooter who never played a minute because of Dr. Fred and the Title IX idiots.  He would be a Senior this year and help the defenses honest.  Ty  Graves would also help shoot 3 pointers and not allow Davidson to pack the lane.  We also would have a had help at the PG with Bishop and Graves.  After S2 caused us to lose 3 guards/outside shooting last Spring, Coach Ford brought in 2 Grad Transfers (Isabell and Wiley) and while both were advertised as immediate help and good outside shooters, both have not lived up to the high expectations of many.  Coach Ford also tried to find last minute outside shooting help overseas with Thor -- who had injuries and just wasn't ready/up to the task.  And our guards we do have, Goodwin and Fred Thatch were never brought in to be the team's sharpshooters.  Landing guys in the Spring (last minute) is tough to do.   The more reliable way is to land incoming Frosh -- and Coach Ford appears to have done that with Jimmerson, and Perkins (perimeter shooting) to go along with Yuri and Hargrove (also not sharpshooters).  And why do you imagine Jimmerson as being similar to Wiley?   I sure hope not.

Never said the season was over, just pointed out that if the goal is the Big Dance, then our only option in my opinion is to win the A10 conference tourney.  

[SouthSide_Billiken]

17 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Southside.  Follow the team a little more before making foolish comments.

Clock. You have no clue who I am. You have no clue how much time I devote to SLU basketball. One's time on this board does not reflect how long one has followed the team. In fact you could argue long time posters calling relatively new posters foolish for stating a legitimate fear/opinion is why many great fans simply lurk on here without posting. 

I previously acknowledged that my hope is that this is just the long-term effects of the Title IX debacle. To say that it is not fair to question what is going on right now is the real foolish part of this thread. We all were pretty pumped about Tremaine, Wiley, and Gordon. Isabell has turned it over excessively. Wiley has been hurt. Before his departure Gordon merely showed flashes. Furthermore, you cannot deny that some blame falls on the coaches. The turnovers,  the lack of an offense,  the bad plays out of timeouts. The talent has drastically improved but the offensive results have not. You cannot go deep in March if you cannot score. Hopefully next years talent is put in a position to succeed and they thrive immediately. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

I really appreciate your help, though.

[billikenfan05]

31 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Never said the season was over, just pointed out that if the goal is the Big Dance, then our only option in my opinion is to win the A10 conference tourney.  

Riiiiiiiiiggghhhht

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

Clock. You have no clue who I am. You have no clue how much time I devote to SLU basketball. One's time on this board does not reflect how long one has followed the team. In fact you could argue long time posters calling relatively new posters foolish for stating a legitimate fear/opinion is why many great fans simply lurk on here without posting. 

I previously acknowledged that my hope is that this is just the long-term effects of the Title IX debacle. To say that it is not fair to question what is going on right now is the real foolish part of this thread. We all were pretty pumped about Tremaine, Wiley, and Gordon. Isabell has turned it over excessively. Wiley has been hurt. Before his departure Gordon merely showed flashes. Furthermore, you cannot deny that some blame falls on the coaches. The turnovers,  the lack of an offense,  the bad plays out of timeouts. The talent has drastically improved but the offensive results have not. You cannot go deep in March if you cannot score. Hopefully next years talent is put in a position to succeed and they thrive immediately. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

I really appreciate your help, though.

OK. I'll bite.  Who are you?  Tell us all.  If you prefer, tell us your category:   big donor, father of current player, AAU coach...

No offense but we have/have had current members of the Board of Trustees, former players, legendary high school coaches, AAU coaches, Post Dispatch beat writers... welcome aboard.  At the same time, you make posts immediately after a gut wrenching loss and criticize our head coach.  

18 hours ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

Hope the coaching puts them in a position to succeed. That's what I am most skeptical about. As our talent has improved our ability to score has not. 

Who is not being put in a position to succeed?

And your quote:

With regards to recruiting, I am starting to fear that he doesn't recruit with any sort of plan. Sure we have athletes and size. But the parts seemingly really don't fit together and they definitely don't fit a slow grind it out inefficient style of offense.

No plan?  Respond to my post about a definite plan - but short circuited by S2.   And if you agree about S2, then why reference to S2 when you take shots at Coach Ford?

And your quote:

I agree that on paper the incoming talent is great. I imagine Jimmerson will be similar to Wiley but hopefully healthy and thus more consistent.  

Why do you believe they will be similar?

 

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Posted 18 hours ago

19 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

What's done is done.  But look at the class he just signed and tell me how chemistry was overlooked.

And respond to 3 Star why the height of our new PG is an issue and why chemistry is not being addressed with next year's class.

[SouthSide_Billiken]

25 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

OK. I'll bite.  Who are you?  Tell us all.  If you prefer, tell us your category:   big donor, father of current player, AAU coach...

No offense but we have/have had current members of the Board of Trustees, former players, legendary high school coaches, AAU coaches, Post Dispatch beat writers... welcome aboard.  At the same time, you make posts immediately after a gut wrenching loss and criticize our head coach. 

To be clear, in order to earn the right to express opinions on an online message board in which you partake one must be a big donor, father of a current player, or AAU coach? GIve me a break and get off your high horse. We can continue to argue in a circular manner because you will continue to criticize those who see things differently than you. Your opinion has no more credence than anybody else on this board. Get over yourself.

The offense has not improved this season. Based on KenPom's metrics we are worse offensively this year than last year when we had a former walk-on playing significant minutes.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to draw a comparison between Wiley and Jimmerson. They are similar in size. They are both shooters first and foremost. Neither are particularly quick. It is bizarre that this comparison has offended you.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to have concern about the size of Yuri. He is listed at 5' 11" 175 pounds on VerbalCommits. It certainly isn't unreasonable to wonder if it will take some time before he is ready to play a major role on Day 1, especially given the physical style of defense he will be expected to play.

And we can speculate all we want as to whether the offense would be efficient with the guys that left. But that is merely speculation. Would we see a legitimate offensive scheme with those guys on the roster? Who knows. I guess we'll see next year.

[VeniceMenace]

21 hours ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

With regards to recruiting, I am starting to fear that he doesn't recruit with any sort of plan. Sure we have athletes and size. But the parts seemingly really don't fit together and they definitely don't fit a slow grind it out inefficient style of offense. French and Gordon and by all reports Santos all were very similar in style and court preferences. Jgood and isabell both need the ball. In comparison, Conklin complemented Loe in style. Mccall and Jett complemented each other stylistaclly. Chemistry matters. I fear that chemistry on the court is being overlooked on  the recruiting trail. 

I assure you that if all of Fords recruits, including Situation 3 and the 3 forwards were still here, nobody would be complaining about chemistry...

[Clock_Tower]

4 hours ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

To be clear, in order to earn the right to express opinions on an online message board in which you partake one must be a big donor, father of a current player, or AAU coach? GIve me a break and get off your high horse. We can continue to argue in a circular manner because you will continue to criticize those who see things differently than you. Your opinion has no more credence than anybody else on this board. Get over yourself.

The offense has not improved this season. Based on KenPom's metrics we are worse offensively this year than last year when we had a former walk-on playing significant minutes.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to draw a comparison between Wiley and Jimmerson. They are similar in size. They are both shooters first and foremost. Neither are particularly quick. It is bizarre that this comparison has offended you.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to have concern about the size of Yuri. He is listed at 5' 11" 175 pounds on VerbalCommits. It certainly isn't unreasonable to wonder if it will take some time before he is ready to play a major role on Day 1, especially given the physical style of defense he will be expected to play.

And we can speculate all we want as to whether the offense would be efficient with the guys that left. But that is merely speculation. Would we see a legitimate offensive scheme with those guys on the roster? Who knows. I guess we'll see next year.

Southside.

While we wait for you to develop thicker skin, take a refresher on reading comprehension.  Note the "..." after I listed just 4 categories.  Not once did I say that these are the only 4 categories or that someone must be in one to give an opinion.  Fine.  You gave your opinion.  Free country.  Then again, not all opinions are correct or carry the same weight.  And yours, IMO does not carry much weight.  

So once again, tell us all who you are.  You obviously have a high opinion of yourself and your importance.

 

 

[kmbilliken]

4 hours ago, SouthSide_Billiken said:

To be clear, in order to earn the right to express opinions on an online message board in which you partake one must be a big donor, father of a current player, or AAU coach? GIve me a break and get off your high horse. We can continue to argue in a circular manner because you will continue to criticize those who see things differently than you. Your opinion has no more credence than anybody else on this board. Get over yourself.

The offense has not improved this season. Based on KenPom's metrics we are worse offensively this year than last year when we had a former walk-on playing significant minutes.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to draw a comparison between Wiley and Jimmerson. They are similar in size. They are both shooters first and foremost. Neither are particularly quick. It is bizarre that this comparison has offended you.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to have concern about the size of Yuri. He is listed at 5' 11" 175 pounds on VerbalCommits. It certainly isn't unreasonable to wonder if it will take some time before he is ready to play a major role on Day 1, especially given the physical style of defense he will be expected to play.

And we can speculate all we want as to whether the offense would be efficient with the guys that left. But that is merely speculation. Would we see a legitimate offensive scheme with those guys on the roster? Who knows. I guess we'll see next year.

Is Collins 5' 11" 175? I was under the impression he was much smaller.

[thetorch]

I don't know why there is concern about Collins size.  He is pretty built.  He's shorter than 5'11 but he's not 5'8.  He's big enough right now to finish drives.

[BillifromPhilly]

This thread is getting tough to read....let the season play out....and hope for the NIT and a good recruiting class performance for next year

 

[ACE]

On 1/27/2019 at 7:00 PM, kmbilliken said:

Is Collins 5' 11" 175? I was under the impression he was much smaller.

Kwamain Mitchell was listed at 5-10 175. I think people tend to get too hung up on the size of guards. I'm more concerned if guards can handle the ball, pass, shoot, play D and make good decisions. And I'd rather they be quick than tall. If they can do all those things and are big, that's just a bonus, but not really a key in what I look for in guards.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

20 minutes ago, ACE said:

Kwamain Mitchell was listed at 5-10 175. I think people tend to get too hung up on the size of guards. I'm more concerned if guards can handle the ball, pass, shoot, play D and make good decisions. And I'd rather they be quick than tall.

Don't forget... if they can bank in 30' three pointers to tie games when time is expiring!

[billikenfan05]

6 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

Don't forget... if they can bank in 30' three pointers to tie games when time is expiring!

He really did that too often to not be trying to. (Memphis)

[NextYearBill]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

He really did that too often to not be trying to. (Memphis)

the memphis shot is my #1 excitement level.... Dion Wiley nearly hit that peak last Saturday too 

[courtside]

On 1/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, slufanskip said:

Really? It seems to me the difference between us and a tourney team is the ability to shoot. We have Javonte Perkins shooting 36% from the 3 plus Gibson Jimerson who is considered one of the best shooters in the country coming in. 

All this talk about this being Ford's fault … He expected to have a much different roster this year. By the time Sit 2 happened it was basically too late to add much to this years frosh class. However, he looks to be adding what we need for next year. We still need a big but I expect him to get it done. The issues that caused the players in Sit 2 or Santos to leave cannot be laid upon Ford's shoulders. Also with Gordon, which of us wouldn't have rolled the dice and taken him regardless of the problems? 

+1

Perimeter shooting, Free Throw shooting, all kinds of shooting.  Need to hav beetrr handles and stronger on the ball too. 

[WVBilliken]

On 1/26/2019 at 4:23 PM, moytoy12 said:

That's where we're at this year.  A good, but not great team.  Lots of hustle, but poor execution.  Poor FT shooting.  Great D. We are what we are this year and that's an NIT-level team but good enough to win the conference tourney.  

To be honest, it's a little freeing as the rest of the regular season doesn't matter all that much in terms of the Big Dance (unless you think we're going to win out, which is unrealistic at best). 

Disagree that execution is poor,.  This team is well coached and overall has good execution, especially on D.  The bulk of the problem is shooting and sometimes turnovers.  But the shooting, , , ,WOW.