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The official our offensive problems start with Isabell thread


ARon

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3 hours ago, Littlebill said:

Which one of our PGs are you describing....? 

But Isabell’s the problem right?

I don't recall people complaining about Goodwin at the point last year. Seemed like he was doing a good job in his first year. I don't think the same can be said for Isabell this year.

And whether it was NBA or another pro league, I don't think he's first eight games at PG are helping his cause.

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2 minutes ago, RamJAMTIME said:

I don't recall people complaining about Goodwin at the point last year. Seemed like he was doing a good job in his first year. I don't think the same can be said for Isabell this year.

And whether it was NBA or another pro league, I don't think he's first eight games at PG are helping his cause.

I wonder how many people here would love to have Hines back running the point 

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17 minutes ago, RamJAMTIME said:

I don't recall people complaining about Goodwin at the point last year. Seemed like he was doing a good job in his first year. I don't think the same can be said for Isabell this year.

And whether it was NBA or another pro league, I don't think he's first eight games at PG are helping his cause.

I'm not talking about last year? I'm sure we would love to get either player's year last year. We aren't getting either thus far. 

 

EDIT - I love JGood and he's undoubtedly the #1 building block of our program for the next 2.5 years, but he isn't without blame here.

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I'm not ready to write off our offensive woes as system problems.  All college teams need to have the threat of three pointers to win.  I believe that the system we have is to work the ball inside out, meaning get the ball to French or Gordon and then make the defense decide who to guard.  If they don't double team our big, then our big makes a move and gets a basket maybe like 70% of the time.  If they double, then the big's job is to kick it out to the open man for a three or an open drive through the lane.  At the least, hitting the open man out of a double team inside throws the defense out of balance and should create easy points from smart positioning and passing after that first pass from the big.

In this system, you can't take away all three aspects that working inside out creates.  (1) If you don't double the big, the big get his chance to make a move and score.  (2) if you double the big, and guard shooters outside, then you leave the lane open for a cutter to get a pass from the big and an easy basket.  (3) if you double the big and crowd the lane to take away passes for easy layups, you leave the three point line open.  SIU-C chose, appropriately, to double the big and crowd the lane.  It's the smart move when a team can't hit their threes.  Until we start hitting our shots, we are going to continue to have this problem.

Again, no college team can have any sort of successful offensive scheme if it cannot hit outside shots.  When we ran this offense last year and the beginning of this year and it worked, everyone loved it.  Now that teams are figuring out that their best bet defensively is to make us hit outside shots, it's not working as well.  It's not because the scheme is wrong.  It's because our guys aren't hitting shots.   Once we do, if we do, it will the open up the other aspects of this offense back up and we will be scoring in the 70s and 80s.

It's very lazy to suggest that we should just fast break.  Every fan who's team is not scoring says the same thing, "we should run more." It's not that simple.  A team may only give a 3-5 real opportunities a game to fast break into points.  Could we do a better job on the break out, yes.  Can we get more points per game simply by saying "fast break more," no.

I think that the problem with our offense is guys not positioning themselves properly once the ball goes inside.  That is something that the coaches can help them with, but I also think the guys are coached what to do and then not doing it.  I think our shots are going to start falling, especially if they get in the right position to get a clear square shot at the basket.  That's what our offensive system calls for.  It's just not happening yet.

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8 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

I'm not ready to write off our offensive woes as system problems.  All college teams need to have the threat of three pointers to win.  I believe that the system we have is to work the ball inside out, meaning get the ball to French or Gordon and then make the defense decide who to guard.  If they don't double team our big, then our big makes a move and gets a basket maybe like 70% of the time.  If they double, then the big's job is to kick it out to the open man for a three or an open drive through the lane.  At the least, hitting the open man out of a double team inside throws the defense out of balance and should create easy points from smart positioning and passing after that first pass from the big.

In this system, you can't take away all three aspects that working inside out creates.  (1) If you don't double the big, the big get his chance to make a move and score.  (2) if you double the big, and guard shooters outside, then you leave the lane open for a cutter to get a pass from the big and an easy basket.  (3) if you double the big and crowd the lane to take away passes for easy layups, you leave the three point line open.  SIU-C chose, appropriately, to double the big and crowd the lane.  It's the smart move when a team can't hit their threes.  Until we start hitting our shots, we are going to continue to have this problem.

Again, no college team can have any sort of successful offensive scheme if it cannot hit outside shots.  When we ran this offense last year and the beginning of this year and it worked, everyone loved it.  Now that teams are figuring out that their best bet defensively is to make us hit outside shots, it's not working as well.  It's not because the scheme is wrong.  It's because our guys aren't hitting shots.   Once we do, if we do, it will the open up the other aspects of this offense back up and we will be scoring in the 70s and 80s.

It's very lazy to suggest that we should just fast break.  Every fan who's team is not scoring says the same thing, "we should run more." It's not that simple.  A team may only give a 3-5 real opportunities a game to fast break into points.  Could we do a better job on the break out, yes.  Can we get more points per game simply by saying "fast break more," no.

I think that the problem with our offense is guys not positioning themselves properly once the ball goes inside.  That is something that the coaches can help them with, but I also think the guys are coached what to do and then not doing it.  I think our shots are going to start falling, especially if they get in the right position to get a clear square shot at the basket.  That's what our offensive system calls for.  It's just not happening yet.

sunday watch how often everyone stands while the guy with the ball stands there with the ball over his head or on his hip.   nobody moves.    way too much standing.  

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3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

sunday watch how often everyone stands while the guy with the ball stands there with the ball over his head or on his hip.   nobody moves.    way too much standing.  

Especially when we get the ball inside and the big gets double teamed.  If the players position themselves properly at that point, you will get an open shot.  Our guys are not putting themselves in the proper place when the double team comes.  That's either because their not being coached where to go or they're not going to the spot that they are being coached to go to.  Based on the frustration I see on Ford's face when we botch the setup, I'm thinking the players aren't going where they are being coached to go.

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1 hour ago, ACE said:

                             Min        PPG RPG    APG   SPG  FG%  FT%  3P%  TOV  A/TO

Isabell 2017        34.4     15.2  7.5      3.4     1.2    47%   76%   34%   2.9    1.2

Isabell 2018         29.5     12.1  4.0      2.5     1.4   39%    72%   31%  2.9    0.9

Edited stats

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3 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

A = Isabell; B = Goodwin.

(Not sure why you've got the snapshot twice.)

Ok, so then why give Isabell time over Goodwin when Goodwin has 2.5 more seasons to develop and Isabell will be gone come March.  For Isabell to play the 1 over Goodwin I’d hope he can clearly outperform.  

Otherwise he needs to be a clearly better outside shooter than the alternative (true vs Thatch but not so sure about Jacobs or a healthy Wiley) or a better defender than the alternative (certainly not true vs Thatch).

It is still fairly early, but I imagine Thatch and Jacobs will earn more minutes as we get into conference play and I doubt they’ll be taking them away from Goodwin.

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39 minutes ago, brianstl said:

We need Goodwin and Isabell on the floor playing together for a significant amount of time for this team to be is good as it should be.  Ford needs to make it work.  All the dumping on Isabell is getting old.

I agree 100 percent Brian.  The offense is a mess and there is plenty of blame to go around with coaching and players.  The turnovers is just maddening as is the standing around and the fast breaks.

The problems really stick out even more with two significant outside threats injured.

My problem with Isabell is that I expect better ball handling by a senior guard and he has to hit wide open 3 point shots.  I like Isabell having the scorers mentality by not being bothered by missing shots.  Wiley has the same mentality he missed four shot in a row kept shooting and started hitting shots.

Does anyone know the status of Bess and Wiley for Oregon State?

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10 minutes ago, CBFan said:

I agree 100 percent Brian.  The offense is a mess and there is plenty of blame to go around with coaching and players.  The turnovers is just maddening as is the standing around and the fast breaks.

The problems really stick out even more with two significant outside threats injured.

My problem with Isabell is that I expect better ball handling by a senior guard and he has to hit wide open 3 point shots.  I like Isabell having the scorers mentality by not being bothered by missing shots.  Wiley has the same mentality he missed four shot in a row kept shooting and started hitting shots.

Does anyone know the status of Bess and Wiley for Oregon State?

Wiley isn't coming back anytime soon per Ford. Bess is good to go for tomorrow. 

The Wiley situation hurts. Need Demarius to step up. 

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16 minutes ago, slu72 said:

One observation on Foreman, it seems almost every time he gets the ball he tries to put a move on his man and drive to the hoop where he runs into a log jam? He rarely looks to pass or kick it back out to an open man. 

I thought DJ had one of the worst games he has played as a Billiken Wed night.  Multiple TOs, poor decision making on moves to the basket, walked on his one good basket.

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Just now, Billikenbooster said:

I thought DJ had one of the worst games he has played as a Billiken Wed night.  Multiple TOs, poor decision making on moves to the basket, walked on his one good basket.

Agreed.  Definitely a tough night for DJ. Good thing is, I’m not worried about his ability to bounce back. 

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1 hour ago, Billikenbooster said:

I thought DJ had one of the worst games he has played as a Billiken Wed night.  Multiple TOs, poor decision making on moves to the basket, walked on his one good basket.

Yep, agreed. The guy behind me at SIU Arena kept saying how we needed to get French out and put Foreman in????????

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9 minutes ago, gobillsgo said:

Well today proved this thread wrong. Offensive problems, and Goodwin’s off year, are definitely not all down to Isabell. 

The offense was better until the 12 min mark in the second half.  

Isabell certainly isn’t to blame for the sheer number of our unforced errors, which continued today.  

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8 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Goodwin did a very good job running the point today.  Less standing around, less indecision, better ball movement than in any other game. There is more to PG than A/TO, which were 2/3 for Goodwin today.

We need Isabell to score,

Coach said he really likes today's lineup. He said we will see a lot more of it. Really liked what Goodwin did at the point despite a couple of bad plays.

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