Signed Recruit Thread 2018-19

[3star_recruit]

2 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

I agree that guards who go on to be mid-major all conference players usually play more than 10 mins/game as freshman.  However, to say that it doesn't happen is simply not true.  I'd also argue that the 20ish minutes/game that Thatch got is typical for talented freshmen guards at consistently good mid-major programs.  Recent examples of an A10 all conference guards who played ~20/game as freshmen are Shavar Newkirk and Ronald Roberts at St Joes, Jack Gibbs at Davidson, Marquise Moore at George Mason, Tu Holloway and Mark Lyons at Xavier and Juan Fernandez at Temple.  Scoochie Smith at Dayton, Melvin Johnson and Treveon Graham at VCU, and Tyler Kalinoski at Davidson played ~17/game as  freshmen.  JeQuan Lewis at VCU played 16/game.  Shawndre' Jones at Richmond and Ramone Moore at Temple played less than 14/game.  Darient Brothers at Richmond played less than 5 min/game as a freshman.  Khalif Wyatt at Temple only played in 10 games and got less than 2 min/game as a freshmen and then 20/game as a soph.  I admit there are just as many or more examples of all conference guards who did play 25/30 minutes as freshman (Kwamain & Jordair would be our examples), but I think my list above shows that it isn't "rare" for it to be the other way.

I'd also argue that the reason it doesn't happen more often is that mid-majors have trouble stacking talented classes, so you typically have a talented guard who gets big minutes his freshman year because there are no other options.  Then that team has trouble recruiting talented guards because they have no playing time to offer.  It has less to do with young guards needing to get big minutes early to develop into better players and everything to do with those guards choosing a place where they will be able to play right away.

You don't see regular conference bottom feeders like Fordham on the list above.  Teams that pop up to the top of the conference once in awhile (Duquesne, GW, us) but aren't consistently near the top don't show up much on the list either.  If SLU wants to be consistently good, talented freshmen guards will typically get 15 - 20 mins/game and wait their turn behind more experienced upperclassmen who are better at that time.  The key is getting & keeping those talented freshmen guards when you can't offer 30+ minutes per game.

Further, the grad transfer thing is relatively new.  It hasn't really born itself out yet whether adding grad transfers so you don't have to rely on big minutes from freshmen guards is a good or bad strategy long term.

You're actually agreeing with me. You provided one example of a freshman playing 10 minutes a game going on to become all-conference. 

If you bring in a grad transfer guard to start, you've got that guy, Goodwin and Thatch at the 1 and 2.  Both Yuri and Jimerson play 10 min or less in that scenario. It's just math.

[ACE]

22 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

There's lots of sophomore shooting guards languishing at the end of P6 benches who will be transferring down this spring. Some of them will become the grad transfer hotshots everyone's fighting over two years from now. Pick one. We'll get two years of production instead of one.

You are concerned about a GT taking away playing time from the young guards. What you're proposing would only make it worse. Under your scenario, the young guards get a bunch of experience next year, but then the following year they have to battle a "hot shot" transfer for the two years after that.

What I'm advocating with a GT is that the freshmen get a little less playing time for one year, and then after gaining experience are ready to step into bigger roles as sophomores. 

[ACE]

26 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Has Jacobs transferred? That makes 5. Perkins and Hargrove are more like wings/PFs and add Hankton to that group. Bell and French for bigs. I see a need at both the 4 and 5 positions. That's 12. Maybe add another wing. 

Agree, I also see a need at 4 & 5 and so it makes sense to devote 2 of the 3 scholarships to address it. We'll have a bunch of options at the 3 and Fred can do just fine there at times in 3-guard lineups. So, I think it makes the most sense to devote that last scholarship for just one year to a GT guard. JG, FT and YC are sure bets to get significant minutes. GJ and DJ... not so certain. Throw a GT combo or 2-guard in the mix who can shoot a little and have him battle it out with GJ and DJ for one year for minutes.

[slu72]

2 minutes ago, ACE said:

Agree, I also see a need at 4 & 5 and so it makes sense to devote 2 of the 3 scholarships to address it. We'll have a bunch of options at the 3 and Fred can do just fine there at times in 3-guard lineups. So, I think it makes the most sense to devote that last scholarship for just one year to a GT guard. JG, FT and YC are sure bets to get significant minutes. GJ and DJ... not so certain. Throw a GT combo or 2-guard in the mix who can shoot a little and have him battle it out with GJ and DJ for one year for minutes.

Man, I hope you're wrong about Jimmerson. We are crying and begging for a sniper. This kid's been called the 5th best prep 3 pt shooter in the country. We need one of them. Two would be mana from Heaven. I don't know about you but when I see a sniper playing us who gets hot it just sucks all the Oxygen out of the room. 

[ACE]

1 minute ago, slu72 said:

Man, I hope you're wrong about Jimmerson. We are crying and begging for a sniper. This kid's been called the 5th best prep 3 pt shooter in the country. We need one of them. Two would be mana from Heaven. I don't know about you but when I see a sniper playing us who gets hot it just sucks all the Oxygen out of the room. 

I didn't say GJ couldn't be a big contributor, I just said I was "not so certain." If he really is that good, then he'll get his minutes. I'm an advocate of creating competition for playing time. What if heading into this year the staff had decided they were set at guard with Jacobs and Thor and decided we didn't need to go after a grad transfer? We would have really been screwed.

[Billiken Rich]

51 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Has Jacobs transferred? 

Just no.  Enough speculation on this.  Enough MBM Slu-mors

[3star_recruit]

59 minutes ago, ACE said:

You are concerned about a GT taking away playing time from the young guards. What you're proposing would only make it worse. Under your scenario, the young guards get a bunch of experience next year, but then the following year they have to battle a "hot shot" transfer for the two years after that.

What I'm advocating with a GT is that the freshmen get a little less playing time for one year, and then after gaining experience are ready to step into bigger roles as sophomores. 

No, I'm saying if you're going to look at grad transfers every year anyway, why half ass it? 

With the current transfer environment, you're always going to have at least one freshman guard and an open scholarship . That means the same rationale will exist for getting a grad transfer next year.  Just get a two year transfer and get it over with.

[Quality Is Job 1]

13 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

Just no.  Enough speculation on this.  Enough MBM Slu-mors

He asked the question rhetorically, with the point being that he hasn't.

[Billiken Rich]

5 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

He asked the question rhetorically, with the point being that he hasn't.

I did not read it that way especially with the "that makes 5" at the end...... 

[RUBillsFan]

56 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

You're actually agreeing with me. You provided one example of a freshman playing 10 minutes a game going on to become all-conference. 

If you bring in a grad transfer guard to start, you've got that guy, Goodwin and Thatch at the 1 and 2.  Both Yuri and Jimerson play 10 min or less in that scenario. It's just math.

Okay, I thought you were saying that freshman guards always need to play big minutes to develop into all conference players.  I gave a bunch of examples of those who didn't necessarily and a couple (Brothers & Wyatt) who were < 10/game.  Also I'm only use a sample of players who made all conference teams and I don't expect all of SLU's guards even ones who are big contributors to make all conference, so this whole analysis is sort of flawed.  

I think you can have 4 guards who average more than 10 mins/game.  SLU has that this year with Goodwin, Isabell, Thatch, & Wiley.  Heck, I'd classify Bess as a guard and say that SLU regularly plays 3 guards and sometimes 4 which is becoming more of a norm in college basketball.  I know that expands our "guard" pool to include Hargrove and Perkins as well, but IMO there are plenty of minutes for a GT guard if we can get a good enough one. 

Bottom line: Get the best players you can and let them battle it out for playing time.  Don't just hand it to freshmen guards because you think they need minutes to develop.  If they're good enough to develop into all conference players, they'll earn the minutes anyway.

[ACE]

2 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

No, I'm saying if you're going to look at grad transfers every year anyway, why half ass it? 

With the current transfer environment, you're always going to have at least one freshmen guard and an open scholarship . That means the same rationale will exist for getting a grad transfer next year.  Just get a two year transfer and get it over with.

Who is saying we'll have grad transfers every year ? And I don't consider getting a grad transfer half-assing it. 

I'm saying next year in particular, it makes sense to go for two again, considering we have no senior class as it stands. Get a 5th freshman and 2 GTs with these three open scholarships. Then IF one of our players transfers out, then we try to fill it with our own sit-one transfer.

[Quality Is Job 1]

12 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I did not read it that way especially with the "that makes 5" at the end...... 

Ace named four guards, so by adding in Jacobs 72 was saying, "that makes 5."

[Billiken Rich]

34 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Ace named four guards, so by adding in Jacobs 72 was saying, "that makes 5."

thought he was saying 5 scholarships ......

 

 

[Quality Is Job 1]

24 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

thought he was saying 5 scholarships ......

 

 

He was counting players on the team.  His second-to-last sentence was "That's 12," including two frontcourt players to-be-named.

Besides, how would he get from the three openings SLU has now to five?

[Sheltiedave]

Wasn’t Thatch POY for Missouri, and Gordon was a real 4star. Pearson was one of the top 3 players in KY.

Ford got them, but Pearson backed out and Gordan washed out. Thatch will be a starter as a soph, and is a solid 20 minute man as a fresh.

The most important position to stack is PG, and SLU has been very poor at snagging em. We need two every three year period.

It is now a baby step to secure the commits, as Ford can beat the drum about playing in the big dance.

[Billiken Rich]

7 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

He was counting players on the team.  His second-to-last sentence was "That's 12," including two frontcourt players to-be-named.

Besides, how would he get from the three openings SLU has now to five?

I admit I did not read his post as closely as I could have.  Are you happy now?  If i used your name and murder in an unclear sentence, do you think you might be prone to jumping to conclusions?  What if there was uninformed speculation that it might be the case?  

[3star_recruit]

55 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

Wasn’t Thatch POY for Missouri, and Gordon was a real 4star. Pearson was one of the top 3 players in KY.

Ford got them, but Pearson backed out and Gordan washed out. Thatch will be a starter as a soph, and is a solid 20 minute man as a fresh.

The most important position to stack is PG, and SLU has been very poor at snagging em. We need two every three year period.

Agreed. Yuri is a great start. It's hard to stack point guards locally because it's usually either a top 50 guy or a top 300 guy with nothing in between.  The best point guard in the state after Yuri graduates is the Brookshire kid in Springfield. He's in the 2021 class. 

[Quality Is Job 1]

41 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I admit I did not read his post as closely as I could have.  Are you happy now?  If i used your name and murder in an unclear sentence, do you think you might be prone to jumping to conclusions?  What if there was uninformed speculation that it might be the case?  

Rich, this is not something I want to go to war about, or anything; I'm not trying to jump down your throat.  I just was clarifying.  72 was not propagating a rumor about a departure; you see that now, so we can move on.

[Billiken Rich]

13 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Rich, this is not something I want to go to war about, or anything; I'm not trying to jump down your throat.  I just was clarifying.  72 was not propagating a rumor about a departure; you see that now, so we can move on.

Got it.

[slu72]

My concern with adding a GT guard is that he'll likely take minutes from Yuri, Jacobs, and, possibly, Jimmerson. I am all for putting the best on the floor, but I'm more for building a foundation with the FR to make them the best. If they're not you recruit over them. That they'll understand a whole lot more than brining in a GT every year who the FR can't beat out due to experience. The whole GT thing has really made coaching a maddening job, as if it wasn't maddening enough to begin with. 

[Clock_Tower]

Yes.  But my point appears to be similar to that expressed by Ace.  GT's are an option for every coach every year - but some years they make more sense than others.  And not every GT will get the playing time that Isabell and Wiley got this year.  And Coach Ford has already said he prefers now to build with Freshmen.  To me, the reason to possibly get another GT guard for next year is to help balance the classes -- we will no Seniors next year - so a GT guard allows us to offer another good Freshman/4 year player this Fall to the local 2021 class while providing additional competition and depth in case our incoming Freshmen aren't quite ready.  Another Freshman or a 2/3 year transfer would not balance the classes and would not allow us to offer players this Fall in the local 2021 class. If an extra just gets in the way, then maybe we just pocket the scholarship.

But again, Coach Ford really only likes to play 8 to 9 players, we seem quite full at the 3 with Goodwin, Thatch, Jimerson, Perkins and Hargrove, and if French is going to play 30 plus minutes the next 2 years at the 4/5, and if Perkins/Hargrove will get some minutes at the 4, if we think it is good to get Sophomores like Jacobs some minutes then I guess we need to get minutes for Hankton, we just signed Bell to play the 5 and I assume we need to get him minutes too, then getting 3 more guys to fight for the opportunity to play alongside French seems a lot too -- in fact more competition than with the guards. 

[slu72]

I'm not sure where Hankton fits in next year unless he bulks up and can contribute at the 4. He could however be a stretch 4 since he seems to like the 3 ball. Not discounting him, but am not sure he cuts into Hargrove or Perkin's minutes. 

[Sheltiedave]

Ford and his crew of assistants are very talented at selling the team to recruits. This means every year he will be recruiting over a previous year starter at some position, if not two.

Ford likes to play guys who(as noted in today’s Post article) can bench 300 pounds, are really mean and really tough, and can rebound. These traits have been an earmark of his teams every place he has been.

[CBFan]

11 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes.  But my point appears to be similar to that expressed by Ace.  GT's are an option for every coach every year - but some years they make more sense than others.  And not every GT will get the playing time that Isabell and Wiley got this year.  And Coach Ford has already said he prefers now to build with Freshmen.  To me, the reason to possibly get another GT guard for next year is to help balance the classes -- we will no Seniors next year - so a GT guard allows us to offer another good Freshman/4 year player this Fall to the local 2021 class while providing additional competition and depth in case our incoming Freshmen aren't quite ready.  Another Freshman or a 2/3 year transfer would not balance the classes and would not allow us to offer players this Fall in the local 2021 class. If an extra just gets in the way, then maybe we just pocket the scholarship.

 

These 2020 offers is the reason we need seniors for next season, Davion Bradford - C, 6-11, 240 - St. Louis, MO (Mehlville), Cam'Ron Fletcher - SF, 6-7, 190 - St. Louis, MO (Vashon), Luke Kasubke - SF, 6-6, 180 - St. Louis, MO (Chaminade), Caleb Love - G, 6-3, 180 - St. Louis, MO (CBC) and others.

I do not like if we have too many committed and I never want to count on someone leaving lets balance the class and score a couple local kids for 2020.

[billiken_roy]

14 minutes ago, CBFan said:

These 2020 offers is the reason we need seniors for next season, Davion Bradford - C, 6-11, 240 - St. Louis, MO (Mehlville), Cam'Ron Fletcher - SF, 6-7, 190 - St. Louis, MO (Vashon), Luke Kasubke - SF, 6-6, 180 - St. Louis, MO (Chaminade), Caleb Love - G, 6-3, 180 - St. Louis, MO (CBC) and others.

I do not like if we have too many committed and I never want to count on someone leaving lets balance the class and score a couple local kids for 2020.

i agree the above names is the reason we either get a couple of grad transfers or basically leave two spots open imo.   bradford would really look nice in blue!  and kasubke appears to me to be quite the shooter which we need more of.   i think the ship has sailed on love and fletcher.  both have big time stars in their eyes.