MLS 4 the Lou

[Brighton]

Leave it to St. Louisans to invent different ways to ***** about a good thing.

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, Littlebill said:

And the PL and La Liga is at 20, and Bundesliga is at 18. MLS isn’t apples to apples with American sports. If they decide to expand past thirty, IMO it would be for some sort of pro/rel

And why do we have to model ourself after Europe leagues?  Just because?  I agree with the dilution of talent as you expand, but that won't change (much) if there are 28 or 30 teams. 

Pro/rel will not work in the US.  It won't work in MLS just as it won't work in MLB or NHL.  Do you think that the St Louis Cardinals playing in the Pacific Coast League would draw 3 million?  How much $$ would the DeWitt's pump into a minor league team?  Do you think Arthur Banks is willing to see his Atlanta play in the USL?  Kavanaugh and Taylor aren't going into the projected half a billion dollar effort to play minor league. 

[billikenfan05]

11 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

And why do we have to model ourself after Europe leagues?  Just because?  I agree with the dilution of talent as you expand, but that won't change (much) if there are 28 or 30 teams. 

Pro/rel will not work in the US.  It won't work in MLS just as it won't work in MLB or NHL.  Do you think that the St Louis Cardinals playing in the Pacific Coast League would draw 3 million?  How much $$ would the DeWitt's pump into a minor league team?  Do you think Arthur Banks is willing to see his Atlanta play in the USL?  Kavanaugh and Taylor aren't going into the projected half a billion dollar effort to play minor league. 

Because Pro/Rel breeds competition. If these owners don’t want to see their teams play in the USL, then win. Using the Pacific Coast league as a comparison is a joke. A lot of questions in your post and not a lot of solid arguments.

[HoosierPal]

50 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Because Pro/Rel breeds competition. If these owners don’t want to see their teams play in the USL, then win. Using the Pacific Coast league as a comparison is a joke. A lot of questions in your post and not a lot of solid arguments.

Ah so there is no competition in the MLB, NFL or NHL. Sorry try again. Your answer follows along with the “Just because theme”. 

So you want the Marlins and KC to go where? International league?  Do the Kings and Suns get put into the G League?

[billikenfan05]

28 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Ah so there is no competition in the MLB, NFL or NHL. Sorry try again. Your answer follows along with the “Just because theme”. 

So you want the Marlins and KC to go where? International league?  Do the Kings and Suns get put into the G League?

You are using absurd examples in the form of questions. Again you’re not actually providing an argument. To answer your stupid questions in which you for a second time suggest than  an MLB team would go right to the lowest of the low leagues. MLB and the 3 others would have to eliminate profit sharing, eliminate the draft, delink all minor League affiliations in AAA-A probably get rid of the AL and NL affiliations, play a one table league. Then yes relegation between all leagues including MLB all the way down to the independent leagues would be possible. The four major sports currently in this country wouldn’t do it but they should. If an ownership group is not committed to putting a top tier professional team on the field year in and year out they should suffer the consequences by having to work their way back to the top tier league. 

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

23 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Ah so there is no competition in the MLB, NFL or NHL. Sorry try again. Your answer follows along with the “Just because theme”. 

So you want the Marlins and KC to go where? International league?  Do the Kings and Suns get put into the G League?

I'd say tanking is one of the biggest problems with professional sports in America today. You have teams purposefully losing games.... You wouldn't have that issue if relegation was used. Creating an atmosphere where you have to win to keep your spot breeds competition. It's most certainly not a perfect plan but you can't deny that it would create a more competitive atmosphere.

[wgstl]

12 minutes ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

I'd say tanking is one of the biggest problems with professional sports in America today. You have teams purposefully losing games.... You wouldn't have that issue if relegation was used. Creating an atmosphere where you have to win to keep your spot breeds competition. It's most certainly not a perfect plan but you can't deny that it would create a more competitive atmosphere.

That. And look at crowd support for teams facing relegation and teams ranked 30ish in American pro sports. One is jammed packed bc fans are trying to help stay up, the other is "ehh frick it, always next year" mentality

[cgeldmacher]

I agree that Europe's relegation systems helps with keeping the product competitive, but it only works with teams and a system that has been around for a very, very long time.  Teams and cities buying into the MLS are not going to be okay with being relegated to the minor leagues if they have paid big expansion fees and invested a lot of money into stadiums.  I just don't think it works with a new league.

[Pistol]

Competition = good. Tanking = bad. It's probably too late in the four major leagues barring something drastic happening, but soccer can still do this. MLS and USL are still forming. Instead of the second-rate Euro cosplay team names (Sporting KC, Real Salt Lake, etc.) and league names (going forward, they're using the English league names for USL on down), they should actually use what works about those leagues.

It's still a challenge. The biggest hurdle, of course, is that ownership groups will expect the same antitrust exemptions granted to the owners of other top-level pro US sports leagues. I don't see them going "Yeah, you know what? Fair is fair!" anytime soon, even if it's something that everyone else wants.

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

And why do we have to model ourself after Europe leagues?  Just because?  I agree with the dilution of talent as you expand, but that won't change (much) if there are 28 or 30 teams. 

Pro/rel will not work in the US.  It won't work in MLS just as it won't work in MLB or NHL.  Do you think that the St Louis Cardinals playing in the Pacific Coast League would draw 3 million?  How much $$ would the DeWitt's pump into a minor league team?  Do you think Arthur Banks is willing to see his Atlanta play in the USL?  Kavanaugh and Taylor aren't going into the projected half a billion dollar effort to play minor league. 

It could work in the US for the MLS.  The MLS needs to find way to differentiate itself from the other sports leagues and give people outside of where MLS teams are presently located a reason to care about their sport.  A set up with different levels with teams moving up and down every year would provide that.

I understand the the protecting the investment argument, interestingly Tilky always makes the same argument.  I would argue, the potential payoff is worth the risk of relegation for for a period of time.  You say the owners don't want to take the risk.  Maybe, but owners of US teams in others leagues like Kroenke, Kahn, Werner, Blitzer, Harris and the Glazers have all been willing to take a much higher dollar risk in buying EPL teams.

[brianstl]

If the MLS and LigaMX were to merge, you would have to go a relegation/promotion system.  You can't have a league with almost 50 teams.  

[Littlebill]

1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

Ah so there is no competition in the MLB, NFL or NHL. Sorry try again. Your answer follows along with the “Just because theme”. 

So you want the Marlins and KC to go where? International league?  Do the Kings and Suns get put into the G League?

HP - I personally liked the first version of the "I'm smart, everyone else is dumb" shtick, Metz, a lot better than the sequel 

The US is behind Europe in so many facets of the game. Tactics, organization, talent, the list goes on.

The dollars and history associated with other American sports make sure that those leagues are the premier ones in their sports. MLS doesn't have that advantage. It has it versus many south american leagues, where younger players from SA are coming to the US to get PT and a paycheck before moving on to Europe.

The parity in the other sports work because the best players HAVE to come to MLB, NFL or NBA to play with the best and get paid like the best. 

I think the pro/rel argument is more big picture - how do we keep our best talents at home while also maximizing the potential of our national team? I think it also adds a huge fan aspect to the whole thing

 

And FWIW,  the Do THey GEt ReleGATed to THe G LeAgUE? argument is wildly lazy as no one is saying the rest of the US leagues should adopt it, because their product is working since it is the only option for top-level players

[Littlebill]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

You are using absurd examples in the form of questions. Again you’re not actually providing an argument. To answer your stupid questions in which you for a second time suggest than  an MLB team would go right to the lowest of the low leagues. 

For being so anti-tilky in obsessively keeping track of his bad reactions, HP really does argue in the exact same manner.

[billikenfan05]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

Competition = good. Tanking = bad. It's probably too late in the four major leagues barring something drastic happening, but soccer can still do this. MLS and USL are still forming. Instead of the second-rate Euro cosplay team names (Sporting KC, Real Salt Lake, etc.) and league names (going forward, they're using the English league names for USL on down), they should actually use what works about those leagues.

It's still a challenge. The biggest hurdle, of course, is that ownership groups will expect the same antitrust exemptions granted to the owners of other top-level pro US sports leagues. I don't see them going "Yeah, you know what? Fair is fair!" anytime soon, even if it's something that everyone else wants.

I could see the United Soccer Leagues running with pro/rel and actually becoming more popular, more competitive than the MLS.

[kappy96]

Saw this was reported earlier...could be interesting development as Austin was thought to be out of the expansion mix since the Crew were being relocated.

___

Haslam Family To Buy Crew, Keep MLS Club In Columbus

By Ian Thomas

A group that includes Browns Owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam has come to an agreement with MLS to acquire the Crew and keep the club in Columbus, according to sources. Current Crew Owner Anthony Precourt has been in discussions to move the team to Austin. It is expected that Precourt will receive the rights to operate a club in that city, according to a source. 

[davidnark]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

I could see the United Soccer Leagues running with pro/rel and actually becoming more popular, more competitive than the MLS.

Huh?

[davidnark]

2 hours ago, brianstl said:

If the MLS and LigaMX were to merge, you would have to go a relegation/promotion system.  You can't have a league with almost 50 teams.  

My guess is that the "merger" may be more akin to aligning the leagues regular season schedules and then combing the leagues' playoffs to determine the North American champion, kind of like NL and AL were in baseball for decades before inter-league play. 

[billikenfan05]

4 minutes ago, davidnark said:

Huh?

The USL has rebranded it's as I'm sure you're aware. I think the long term plan is adopt pro-rel for these 3 leagues. I think this could lead to the leagues to become more competitive and more popular than the MLS. I have no basis for this other than it raises the stakes of the leagues.

[Clock_Tower]

Never thought we would take a page from socialistic Europe regarding free market competition but I favor relegation rather than league sponsored “parity” of reverse order/lottery draft choices, luxury tax and penalties, equal revenue sharing, restrictive competition and non enforcement of anti-trust laws

[davidnark]

1 minute ago, billikenfan05 said:

The USL has rebranded it's as I'm sure you're aware. I think the long term plan is adopt pro-rel for these 3 leagues. I think this could lead to the leagues to become more competitive and more popular than the MLS.

Promotion and relegation is the most overrated concept in all of sports, and I closely follow at least 4 European leagues that use it. It basically completely disheartens the fan bases of 3 or 4 teams every season, and drives false excitement across the fan bases of 3 or 4 new teams because they get to become the annual whipping boys of the big clubs. You know what would be much better? A little parity across the league, and a meaningful post-season playoff system that rewards the top quarter or third of the league. It is foolish to think two minor soccer leagues in the US will overtake the major league--despite not having the best players, stadiums, and media coverage--simply because some of the teams are at risk of getting dropped down every year. 

MLS has a very calculated business plan focused on building soccer-specific facilities in urban cores across most major markets in order to develop critical awareness and scale. They also require billionaire owners who can weather the early growth. However, at some point in the next 5-10 years, when that foundation is fully established across the critical mass, the league is going to eliminate or massively expand the salary cap to allow the billionaire owners to compete to buy the top players in the world. When that happens, everything will change, and no one will debate many of the topics in this thread. I just hope that St. Louis is part of the league when it happens.

[HoosierPal]

23 minutes ago, davidnark said:

Promotion and relegation is the most overrated concept in all of sports, and I closely follow at least 4 European leagues that use it. It basically completely disheartens the fan bases of 3 or 4 teams every season, and drives false excitement across the fan bases of 3 or 4 new teams because they get to become the annual whipping boys of the big clubs. You know what would be much better? A little parity across the league, and a meaningful post-season playoff system that rewards the top quarter or third of the league. It is foolish to think two minor soccer leagues in the US will overtake the major league--despite not having the best players, stadiums, and media coverage--simply because some of the teams are at risk of getting dropped down every year. 

MLS has a very calculated business plan focused on building soccer-specific facilities in urban cores across most major markets in order to develop critical awareness and scale. They also require billionaire owners who can weather the early growth. However, at some point in the next 5-10 years, when that foundation is fully established across the critical mass, the league is going to eliminate or massively expand the salary cap to allow the billionaire owners to compete to buy the top players in the world. When that happens, everything will change, and no one will debate many of the topics in this thread. I just hope that St. Louis is part of the league when it happens.

The playoffs in America excite the fan base and keep national attention on the sport.  Who wasn't excited about the Cardinals possibility of getting into the playoffs, with a chance to play for the World Series, up until the last week.  If relegation was the only thing we had, St. Louis baseball would have been over in August.  We would have been stuck in mid pack, with nothing much to look forward to.  I don't think too many people locally or nationally would have tuned in at the end of the year to see if Miami was relegated to the Cuban League.  Nor would that possibility have increased Miami attendance. 

Today the MLS has 16 teams still in the running for a playoff spot.  That's 16 cities with perhaps a reason to pay attention to their games.  If all that was left was relegation, then you might have 4 or 6 teams that are making local headlines.  Most of the country wouldn't care.  The Fire v Earthquake match...whoopie.  The majority of the teams would be done, jockeying for 10 place instead of 11th or 7th instead of 8th in the last two matches.  Not a whole lot to get excited about there for the majority of the league.

In the past 10 seasons, there have been only 4 EPL franchises raise the Cup.  In the Bundesliga, only 3 champions.  In the MLS, 7 have hoisted the MLS Cup in the past 10 seasons.  For me, the excitement of winning the league trophy far exceeds watching the bottom dwellers fight for scraps. I don't think the monopoly of a handful to teams is what we want in this country.

[brianstl]

9 minutes ago, davidnark said:

Promotion and relegation is the most overrated concept in all of sports, and I closely follow at least 4 European leagues that use it. It basically completely disheartens the fan bases of 3 or 4 teams every season, and drives false excitement across the fan bases of 3 or 4 new teams because they get to become the annual whipping boys of the big clubs. You know what would be much better? A little parity across the league, and a meaningful post-season playoff system that rewards the top quarter or third of the league. It is foolish to think two minor soccer leagues in the US will overtake the major league--despite not having the best players, stadiums, and media coverage--simply because some of the teams are at risk of getting dropped down every year. 

MLS has a very calculated business plan focused on building soccer-specific facilities in urban cores across most major markets in order to develop critical awareness and scale. They also require billionaire owners who can weather the early growth. However, at some point in the next 5-10 years, when that foundation is fully established across the critical mass, the league is going to eliminate or massively expand the salary cap to allow the billionaire owners to compete to buy the top players in the world. When that happens, everything will change, and no one will debate many of the topics in this thread. I just hope that St. Louis is part of the league when it happens.

MLS has had a calculated business plan for a quarter of a century.  Thinking a critical mass of teams will some how make things different for them is pretty foolish.  More people in the US watch a foreign league on TV with no teams in this country than watch the MLS.

I want the MLS to succeed, but I don't think more time, teams and money lost alone is going to make that happen.

[brianstl]

2 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

The playoffs in America excite the fan base and keep national attention on the sport.  Who wasn't excited about the Cardinals possibility of getting into the playoffs, with a chance to play for the World Series, up until the last week.  If relegation was the only thing we had, St. Louis baseball would have been over in August.  We would have been stuck in mid pack, with nothing much to look forward to.  I don't think too many people locally or nationally would have tuned in at the end of the year to see if Miami was relegated to the Cuban League.  Nor would that possibility have increased Miami attendance. 

Today the MLS has 16 teams still in the running for a playoff spot.  That's 16 cities with perhaps a reason to pay attention to their games.  If all that was left was relegation, then you might have 4 or 6 teams that are making local headlines.  Most of the country wouldn't care.  The Fire v Earthquake match...whoopie.  The majority of the teams would be done, jockeying for 10 place instead of 11th or 7th instead of 8th in the last two matches.  Not a whole lot to get excited about there for the majority of the league.

In the past 10 seasons, there have been only 4 EPL franchises raise the Cup.  In the Bundesliga, only 3 champions.  In the MLS, 7 have hoisted the MLS Cup in the past 10 seasons.  For me, the excitement of winning the league trophy far exceeds watching the bottom dwellers fight for scraps. I don't think the monopoly of a handful to teams is what we want in this country.

EPL have more than relegation and the league championship to play for.  You have the Champions League, Europa League and FA Cup.

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, kappy96 said:

Saw this was reported earlier...could be interesting development as Austin was thought to be out of the expansion mix since the Crew were being relocated.

___

Haslam Family To Buy Crew, Keep MLS Club In Columbus

By Ian Thomas

A group that includes Browns Owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam has come to an agreement with MLS to acquire the Crew and keep the club in Columbus, according to sources. Current Crew Owner Anthony Precourt has been in discussions to move the team to Austin. It is expected that Precourt will receive the rights to operate a club in that city, according to a source. 

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/10/12/cleveland-browns-owners-emerge-potential-buyers-columbus-crew-sc

This article pretty much says Austin will play in the MLS in 2021 or sooner. 

[wgstl]

51 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

The USL has rebranded it's as I'm sure you're aware. I think the long term plan is adopt pro-rel for these 3 leagues. I think this could lead to the leagues to become more competitive and more popular than the MLS. I have no basis for this other than it raises the stakes of the leagues.

I wish I could find the article.  But a few months back I read something about the USL taking the right steps to become a big time league.  This is before signing the new contract with ESPN+ like they just did.  I could totally see them being big enough to be the relegation league with MLS, and being very profitable.