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The rumor that won't die: NBA in STL ?


Brighton

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6 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

While not entirely true, I mostly agree with the bold part of your post. Hopefully the Municipal Courts project will change this. The building itself is being redeveloped into a hotel but there is a phase 2 component for the parking lot behind the building that sits directly across from Enterprise Arena. The plan was to build a parking garage on the lot with first floor commercial (including restaurant(s) and bars). There are over 200+ days a year where Enterprise or Stifel Theatre is hosting an event so the demand is certainly there.

And in case anyone is heading to Stifel Theatre or the Enterprise Center soon, these two restaurants just opened in the Park Pacific, which is just a couple of blocks away:

https://www.vayathenote.com/ 

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24 minutes ago, brianstl said:

 

There are 10,000 less people working in downtown St. Louis today than there were in 1999.  It is great that more people are living downtown, but a downtown's main function is to serve as a central business district.  We wasted a couple decades wasting too many of too few resources trying to get people to live downtown, while over 10% of it's workforce disappeared.  

The current crime problem downtown is overstated and has been overstated for decades.  Almost two thirds of all violent crime in St Louis City occurs in a triangle of neighborhoods in north St. Louis miles away from downtown.  I would argue too many of the city's policing resources get wasted in Downtown St. Louis and other safe neighborhoods. They should be used  instead in the city's most violent neighborhoods.  It doesn't matter if no one gets shot in downtown for a decade if 2,000 people are getting killed in north city neighborhoods miles away.  People hear St. Louis City and will automatically think downtown is a unsafe place to work or live.  You want to fix downtown long term, you got to lower the violent crime rate in the city's most dangerous neighborhoods.  Perception is reality. 

Agreed, but how? That's the question. You can't just saturate the violent neighborhoods with police, the violence will move to a spot or neighborhood with less resistance, which has been proven in the past.

Also, just because you don't read about it, or see a number for it in the stats, violent crimes downtown are greater than you are stating. Numbers reported are always inaccurate for total crime. For instance, i would put my money on that there are multiple unreported rolling gun battles, shootings DAILY Downtown.

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

Agreed, but how? That's the question. You can't just saturate the violent neighborhoods with police, the violence will move to a spot or neighborhood with less resistance, which has been proven in the past.

 

Actually, the area where this has been occurring has been persistent for a decade plus.  Most violent criminals tend to commit most of their crimes in the communities in which they live. You need to remove those people from the streets.

2 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

 For instance, i would put my money on that there are multiple unreported rolling gun battles, shootings DAILY Downtown.

You are joking here, right?

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28 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

Agreed, but how? That's the question. You can't just saturate the violent neighborhoods with police, the violence will move to a spot or neighborhood with less resistance, which has been proven in the past.

Also, just because you don't read about it, or see a number for it in the stats, violent crimes downtown are greater than you are stating. Numbers reported are always inaccurate for total crime. For instance, i would put my money on that there are multiple unreported rolling gun battles, shootings DAILY Downtown.

I agree, numbers are higher than reported, but still not to the point of" I never want to go downtown"

 

And pretty sure the last part maybe a wee bit too much

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46 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

Agreed, but how? That's the question. You can't just saturate the violent neighborhoods with police, the violence will move to a spot or neighborhood with less resistance, which has been proven in the past.

Source? I would be interested to read reporting and/or studies on this topic. Even if you accept this premise, this is odd logic imo. Don't allocate resources to violent neighborhoods because violence will pop up elsewhere? What's the point of police, if not to try to solve/prevent crimes?

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I would really encourage everyone to simply go downtown and walk around on like a Friday for several hours. Its far busier than you think and there are lot of lawyers/accountants/finance/residents just walking around.  I would love to hear a report from people who actually go do this.

This thread is filled with some unbelievably stupid people.

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26 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

Source? I would be interested to read reporting and/or studies on this topic. Even if you accept this premise, this is odd logic imo. Don't allocate resources to violent neighborhoods because violence will pop up elsewhere? What's the point of police, if not to try to solve/prevent crimes?

I'm not saying don't allocate sources in violent neighborhoods. The problem is lack of personnel that the city has. There aren't enough police employed by the city to cover the entire city adequately. So, if you just move more officers from one area to another, the criminal activity will just resurface in an area of less resistance. The answer is hiring 100's of more officers in the city, but that has proven to be easier said than done. There are less recruits applying and more officers leaving the city than there were 10-20 years ago.

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7 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

I'm not saying don't allocate sources in violent neighborhoods. The problem is lack of personnel that the city has. There aren't enough police employed by the city to cover the entire city adequately. So, if you just move more officers from one area to another, the criminal activity will just resurface in an area of less resistance. The answer is hiring 100's of more officers in the city, but that has proven to be easier said than done. There are less recruits applying and more officers leaving the city than there were 10-20 years ago.

Gotcha. Makes sense

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anyone who lives or works in the city knows it's pretty safe and knows where it's safe and where it isn't.  I've been working on Lindell in mid-town for over twenty years, sometimes till  late and I've never been accosted.  I work at a retail establishment that's never been robbed.  We've had some characters asked to leave  by the police but they've never been been shooty or stabby.  

I guess I've just been lucky or maybe I don't have a $5000 watch or I don't drive a flashy car.  

 

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52 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

When I think of "downtown St. Louis" I think of generally the area bordered by MLK Dr, 40, Jefferson, and the river. I have never felt unsafe downtown in any area really at any time of day. 

It seems that some people think downtown=bad neighborhoods. 

It's actually quite amusing what most of my county friends consider "downtown". I had one friend who would always tell me to meet him downtown at Brennan's Wine Bar 😃

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6 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

It's actually quite amusing what most of my county friends consider "downtown". I had one friend who would always tell me to meet him downtown at Brennan's Wine Bar 😃

well if everything in that corridor keeps expanding like it has, it very well may be considered downtown soon, ha.

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35 minutes ago, wgstl said:

well if everything in that corridor keeps expanding like it has, it very well may be considered downtown soon, ha.

It will be interesting to see what kind of the impact an MLS stadium and the new NGA facility will have on the western side of downtown and the eastern side of midtown/Grand Center.

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7 hours ago, RiseAndGrind said:

The murder rate is not acceptable but your second comment is not accurate

This

Having lived in the city for the past 10 years, I’ve seen so much physical change that I can’t even remember what things were like when I first moved here. The City has been booming in so many ways and our trajectory has never been better. County folks don’t even seem to realize much less acknowledge this reality...

And regarding shootings, I always found it funny when my family members would tell me they were afraid to go anywhere near downtown because they were “going to get shot.” I always laughed and had to try to explain to them that statistically, almost all of the shootings that happen in the city are personal/domestic disputes. It’s almost never some random person getting mugged and gunned down, but a lot of St Louisans love to sensationalize those things when they do occur maybe once or twice a year... Right now there’s a major perception problem for a lot of people living outside the city, especially in places like St Charles, and we collectively need to do a better job of trying to improve that.

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19 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

I always laughed and had to try to explain to them that statistically, almost all of the shootings that happen in the city are personal/domestic disputes.

Well......when your personal dispute involves spraying bullets that hit bystanders and kids in neighboring homes, I guess you are right.  I guess it also matters if you are shot while being robbed or just wander into the line of fire.  I largely agree with your points but this sentence is ridiculous...... 

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34 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

Well......when your personal dispute involves spraying bullets that hit bystanders and kids in neighboring homes, I guess you are right.  I guess it also matters if you are shot while being robbed or just wander into the line of fire.  I largely agree with your points but this sentence is ridiculous...... 

yep... bullets just spraying everywhere. that's what happens downtown. 

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3 hours ago, Billiken Rich said:

Well......when your personal dispute involves spraying bullets that hit bystanders and kids in neighboring homes, I guess you are right.  I guess it also matters if you are shot while being robbed or just wander into the line of fire.  I largely agree with your points but this sentence is ridiculous...... 

My point was that the main driver behind gun violence in the city, statistically, is personal feuds, and that if you're not from the city, it is unlikely that you will be randomly targeted, mugged, and shot to death (like so many people living in fear out in the county think). I know people who won't even let their teenage children go anywhere near the city, as if it's some sort of war zone...

Also, I never implied that gun injuries/deaths in STL don't occur as a result of stray bullets. Most people visiting the city aren't going to be driving through the neighborhoods in North City.... In fact, most of those people hit by stray bullets are family members or neighbors of individuals being targeted in personal/domestic disputes. So I fail to see how that sentence was "ridiculous"?

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On 10/8/2018 at 10:56 AM, Duff Man said:

What billionaire is out there who is going to drop $1B+ on the Pelicans (or whomever) AND buy into the Blues/Enterprise Center partnership (which I imagine struggles to break even) and pay whatever relocation fee the NBA wants?

I know the Chaifetz family has money...but do they (or anyone with local ties) really have THAT kind of $$$ to invest in a market that has no real track record when it comes to supporting professional basketball?

Gosh how quickly people forget.

Dr. Chaifetz has already been involved in more that one effort to buy a NBA franchise.  He was in on the bidding for the Hawks just a few years back.  Years ago I heard from Rick Majerus directly that Chaifetz owning a NBA team was a case of when and not if.  He not only has the money but the connections needed to make it a reality.

The real question is whether or not he cares if the team is in Chicago, STL, or just wherever he could get it.  STL would need him to want to be here enough that he’ll push the league to let him have the team here when it wouldn’t be the league’s first choice.  His additional gifts to SLU and the connection he and Ross are making with the STL startup community give me hope that he may want to build his little empire here.  

Still a long shot for many reasons.  But not as impossible as some would say or as dependent on the Taylors.

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5 hours ago, Spoon-Balls said:

This

Having lived in the city for the past 10 years, I’ve seen so much physical change that I can’t even remember what things were like when I first moved here. The City has been booming in so many ways and our trajectory has never been better. County folks don’t even seem to realize much less acknowledge this reality...

And regarding shootings, I always found it funny when my family members would tell me they were afraid to go anywhere near downtown because they were “going to get shot.” I always laughed and had to try to explain to them that statistically, almost all of the shootings that happen in the city are personal/domestic disputes. It’s almost never some random person getting mugged and gunned down, but a lot of St Louisans love to sensationalize those things when they do occur maybe once or twice a year... Right now there’s a major perception problem for a lot of people living outside the city, especially in places like St Charles, and we collectively need to do a better job of trying to improve that.

I go into the city roughly every other day for work and typically patronize at least one city establishment every week.

I love the city. I live as close as possible to the city as I can while still being in the county for public schools.

Downtown for all the progress that's been made since 2000 or whatever still has a long way to go and there's many parts of downtown that are not really open for business after dark.

I have been held up at gun point walking to my car after a ball game (in 2009). It's real. It happens. That doesn't stop me from going into the city.

Jim Kavanaugh and the Taylors are doing a great thing by reviving the MLS bid and I hope it all works out.

The NBA Is a completely different animal though. For this market to truly have the demographics to support an NBA franchise (on top of MLB, NHL, MLS and obvi our Billikens) would require a sea change. It's not as simple as the Taylors bringing a team here - which even if it were as simple as that, would be a long shot.

 

 

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