The rumor that won't die: NBA in STL ?

[rgbilliken]

Just now, Box and Won said:

Milwaukee has Marquette and the Bucks.  I don't think either suffers because of the presence of the other.

Agree with this. 

I'm from Omaha and I don't think having an NBA team would hurt Creighton attendance much for a few reasons:

1) Omaha is an extremely Catholic town and those games are a very social event - like a class reunion for Creighton Prep/Marian High and Creighton U kids every week.

2) Creighton has had a sustained period of moderate success.

3) The demographics of Creighton fans and NBA fans are very different. (i.e. the Creighton crowd is much older and whiter and Catholic-er). 

*If* SLU games can become more like a social event the way Creighton games are, and *if* we can sustain some success, I don't think it would make much of a difference to SLU attendance whether STL has an NBA team or not.

[Duff Man]

3 hours ago, brianstl said:

I think if the Chaifetz family and the Taylor family decided to put their money together they can do as they please.  Blues/Enterprise partnership becomes much more profitable when you add NBA dates to the building's schedule.  It dramatically increases the demand and value of the buildings suites.  

Plus you get the leverage of having both an NBA and NHL team when it comes to dealing with local media rights.  You can start your own regional network with those two properties if a Fox Sports or Comcast won't pony up the bucks.

Until there's a prominent member of the Taylor family expressing a desire to bring an NBA team to STL, it's wishful thinking to think they're going to focus on the NBA.

Also, are we living in a reality where Enterprise Center is a viable long term NBA arena or where there's any prospect for a new publicly funded arena? 

 

[davidnark]

As a big fan of both MLS and the NBA, I would love both! In addition to being the only two truly global team sports, these are also the preferred sports of the under 25 demographic. Having franchises in both leagues will help the city for generations to come.

[Spoon-Balls]

5 hours ago, rgbilliken said:

Agree with this. 

I'm from Omaha and I don't think having an NBA team would hurt Creighton attendance much for a few reasons:

1) Omaha is an extremely Catholic town and those games are a very social event - like a class reunion for Creighton Prep/Marian High and Creighton U kids every week.

2) Creighton has had a sustained period of moderate success.

3) The demographics of Creighton fans and NBA fans are very different. (i.e. the Creighton crowd is much older and whiter and Catholic-er). 

*If* SLU games can become more like a social event the way Creighton games are, and *if* we can sustain some success, I don't think it would make much of a difference to SLU attendance whether STL has an NBA team or not.

I have family from Omaha and these points are all spot on.  

[Brighton]

Like others have said, Marquette isn't hurt by the Bucks' presence. It can be done and this city needs all the help it can get.

[Duff Man]

The region needs to solve its crime problem and get over its political fiefdoms and re-invent itself as a cultural hotbed of innovation where young people want to relocate to and then maybe it can get an NBA team...that's how it works, not the other way around.

[Compton]

6 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

The region needs to solve its crime problem and get over its political fiefdoms and re-invent itself as a cultural hotbed of innovation where young people want to relocate to and then maybe it can get an NBA team...that's how it works, not the other way around.

Somehow Sacramento, San Antonio, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and Detroit seem to work as NBA host cities without having those prerequisites apply to them. 

[Brighton]

Yeah, and from what I'm hearing, the Cortex complex is quickly growing as an innovation hub there.

It's so easy to complain.

 

[Duff Man]

Well OKC stole the Sonics with Oil and Natural Gas Money so they're kind of an exception but they along with Memphis only have 1 pro team and it's the NBA. 

San Antonio has 5 NBA titles in the last 20 years, but the Spurs were rumored to be looking at STL in the 80s (that ship has long sailed though obviously).

Detroit has NBA 3 titles in the last 30 years and has supported an NBA team for 6 decades, and are the 13th largest media market in the US.

Sacramento should have lost their team, but they are actually 1 spot above STL on the media market ranking, and have 30+ years of tradition in that market.

Cleveland is also above STL in terms of media market and have a relatively healthy basketball tradition between the late 80s early 90s and the 2 LeBron eras.

Milwaukee has 50 years of tradition and have been compelling at some point in every decade but the 90s.

Of those cities, only Detroit has both NBA and NHL.

Also, aside from Detroit and perhaps Cleveland - none of those cities have faced the negative public perception from outside that St Louis currently has going.

[Duff Man]

7 minutes ago, Brighton said:

Yeah, and from what I'm hearing, the Cortex complex is quickly growing as an innovation hub there.

It's so easy to complain.

 

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

[almaman]

9 hours ago, wgstl said:

I must have a weird group of friends but my friends in stl either hate college and love the NBA, or the opposite.  I dont know anyone who likes both, myself included.  Ive always felt this too, but its always seemed like college football and NFL go together much better than college basketball and the NBA from a fan of both leagues POV

Well said

[almaman]

1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

If the bullets don’t get you the carjackings will. Glad I drive a stick

[Brighton]

Typical county hysteria. Same as it ever was.

[davidnark]

10 hours ago, Duff Man said:

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

This statement couldn't be any further from the truth. Have you been downtown lately? 10-15 years ago the majority of the buildings in the core between 18th and 6th and Washington and Olive were abandoned. Today, nearly every single building is rehabbed or under development. When I am downtown on weeknights, I am amazed to see people walking dogs and families out and about. Yes, May Company and AT&T have left some big office vacancies, but the residential has skyrocketed and the office market has at least stabilized. 

[NextYearBill]

7 minutes ago, davidnark said:

This statement couldn't be any further from the truth. Have you been downtown lately? 10-15 years ago the majority of the buildings in the core between 18th and 6th and Washington and Olive were abandoned. Today, nearly every single building is rehabbed or under development. When I am downtown on weeknights, I am amazed to see people walking dogs and families out and about. Yes, May Company and AT&T have left some big office vacancies, but the residential has skyrocketed and the office market has at least stabilized. 

Good post. I've lived downtown for the last 4 years... 15th and Locust... Downtown West is about to be the next cool thing 

[wgstl]

10 hours ago, Duff Man said:

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

as someone who follows the real estate world rather closely, Downtown has done more in the last 2 years than it had the 15 years prior.

[RiseAndGrind]

10 hours ago, Duff Man said:

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

The murder rate is not acceptable but your second comment is not accurate

[Pistol]

I'd be thrilled to have an NBA team in St. Louis (and MLS, too) for many reasons stated above. It could peacefully coexist with SLU basketball without being a threat. If SLU can have a consistently winning program, the rest takes care of itself. The common denominator among many of the peer examples above is that the programs are good - Creighton in Omaha, Marquette in Milwaukee, Xavier (and UC) in Cincinnati, etc. - whether or not there's other competition in town for sports entertainment dollars, all of these programs have sustained success. It's really that simple.

[wgstl]

3 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I'd be thrilled to have an NBA team in St. Louis (and MLS, too) for many reasons stated above. It could peacefully coexist with SLU basketball without being a threat. If SLU can have a consistently winning program, the rest takes care of itself. The common denominator among many of the peer examples above is that the programs are good - Creighton in Omaha, Marquette in Milwaukee, Xavier (and UC) in Cincinnati, etc. - whether or not there's other competition in town for sports entertainment dollars, all of these programs have sustained success. It's really that simple.

I guess my biggest wonder would be this type of scenario.  Say SLU has a few dark years, or lets say we had an NBA team during the crews years.  I could see the attendance being half of the already poor attendance.  And then when we started playing better with Ford, I could see the attendance increasing at a much slower pace due to maybe the focus that was shifted over to the NBA during that period of time.

[Duff Man]

2 hours ago, Brighton said:

Typical county hysteria. Same as it ever was.

No. It's not - I'm basing much of this on what I hear from people who live in the "nice parts" of the city...and the "nothing to see here" attitude of denial (prevalent under the previous mayor) is part of the problem.

Instead of recognizing that there's several degrees of dysfunction within law enforcement (which may be an at an all time high considering the crap going on between the circuit attorney and the city police) and demanding a regional strategy on crime from our leaders in both the city and county, we're day dreaming about getting an NBA team.

There have been over 350 murders in the city in 2017-2018 and per the Metro Police's own data, motive is unknown in 212 of them. Either there aren't resources to handle it or those resources aren't being deployed properly or some combination of the two. It's a black eye for the region to have such a high murder rate year after year and don't think that doesn't come into play when STL is competing with other cities for events/teams.

As alaman said, the carjackings might actually be the bigger problem as it's more likely to deter people coming into the city to spend money.

re: Downtown

I'm glad things are looking better in certain sections. I don't get downtown as much as I did before I had kids. I do know the last time I saw a show at the Opera House/Stifel Theatre there was seemingly nowhere to go within walking distance after the show.

[Box and Won]

The loss of May and the emptying of the AT&T building have left massive, massive voids in downtown St. Louis.  That's two million square feet of space that was once fully occupied by office workers.  The decrease in daytime activity is noticeable and downtown retail has suffered as a result.  Still, it in no way feels unsafe to me.  Just less lively than it used to be.

If the Railway Exchange building - the former May HQ - ever gets redeveloped, that will help, but a mixed-use building won't have the same impact as a full office building.  I'm not terribly optimistic about the AT&T building.  

On the plus side, new hotels and apartments are under construction on either side of the Railway Exchange.  They'll help things a little.  Hopefully the Chemical Building and Jefferson Arms will finally get redeveloped as well.  

We desperately need more office tenants down here though.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

13 hours ago, Duff Man said:

Nobody is complaining just living in reality where the murder rate is out of control and downtown is a shell of even 10 years ago.

Aside from pointing out what has been obvious for many, many years (crime in STL is horrible), you don't seem to know what you're talking about. 

Downtown and downtown west have dramatically changed since 2000. $5 billion + has been invested into the existing infrastructure since then. Downtown's total housing units/ population went from practically nonexistent to over 7,443 units/9,609 residents. Downtown's population (excluding downtown West) in 2000 was 800 people. In 2010 it was over 3,700. That's a 350+% increase in population. In 2018, that number is over 4,800. This does not include Downtown West's population of 4,700. Both areas saw population growth again this past year. 

Downtown St. Louis went from having 0 grocery stores in 2000 to having 2 in 2018. Again, may not seem like a big deal to you but for a downtown that is supposedly "a shell of itself", that seems kind of odd to add two grocery stores. New construction, class A office space (the first of its kind in downtown STL in 30 years) is currently being built. 

Dozens of national developers have poured into downtown St. Louis to invest in redevelopment projects over the past 15 years. Most well-established national developers don't enter markets that are a shell of their former self, and you certainly don't enter a market without doing your due diligence. Their due diligence would have turned up a 92% + occupancy rate downtown, including 91% in the rental market and 99% in the condo market. All healthy numbers.

I've been incredibly lucky through my work to watch this transformation firsthand. Obviously things could be a lot better downtown. Downtown still seems to be more of a 9-5 spot (but so is Clayton) with the occasional bump in nightlife on days with Blues and Cards games. The commercial market could also be a lot better as well. But to suggest that downtown is a shell of itself from where it was 10-15 years ago is laughably false.

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

39 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

I don't get downtown as much as I did before I had kids. 

Lol you don't say.

[brianstl]

23 minutes ago, davidnark said:

This statement couldn't be any further from the truth. Have you been downtown lately? 10-15 years ago the majority of the buildings in the core between 18th and 6th and Washington and Olive were abandoned. Today, nearly every single building is rehabbed or under development. When I am downtown on weeknights, I am amazed to see people walking dogs and families out and about. Yes, May Company and AT&T have left some big office vacancies, but the residential has skyrocketed and the office market has at least stabilized. 

 

12 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

The loss of May and the emptying of the AT&T building have left massive, massive voids in downtown St. Louis.  That's two million square feet of space that was once fully occupied by office workers.  The decrease in daytime activity is noticeable and downtown retail has suffered as a result.  Still, it in no way feels unsafe to me.  Just less lively than it used to be.

If the Railway Exchange building - the former May HQ - ever gets redeveloped, that will help, but a mixed-use building won't have the same impact as a full office building.  I'm not terribly optimistic about the AT&T building.  

On the plus side, new hotels and apartments are under construction on either side of the Railway Exchange.  They'll help things a little.  Hopefully the Chemical Building and Jefferson Arms will finally get redeveloped as well.  

We desperately need more office tenants down here though.

There are 10,000 less people working in downtown St. Louis today than there were in 1999.  It is great that more people are living downtown, but a downtown's main function is to serve as a central business district.  We wasted a couple decades wasting too many of too few resources trying to get people to live downtown, while over 10% of it's workforce disappeared.  

The current crime problem downtown is overstated and has been overstated for decades.  Almost two thirds of all violent crime in St Louis City occurs in a triangle of neighborhoods in north St. Louis miles away from downtown.  I would argue too many of the city's policing resources get wasted in Downtown St. Louis and other safe neighborhoods. They should be used  instead in the city's most violent neighborhoods.  It doesn't matter if no one gets shot in downtown for a decade if 2,000 people are getting killed in north city neighborhoods miles away.  People hear St. Louis City and will automatically think downtown is a unsafe place to work or live.  You want to fix downtown long term, you got to lower the violent crime rate in the city's most dangerous neighborhoods.  Perception is reality. 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

No. It's not - I'm basing much of this on what I hear from people who live in the "nice parts" of the city...and the "nothing to see here" attitude of denial (prevalent under the previous mayor) is part of the problem.

Instead of recognizing that there's several degrees of dysfunction within law enforcement (which may be an at an all time high considering the crap going on between the circuit attorney and the city police) and demanding a regional strategy on crime from our leaders in both the city and county, we're day dreaming about getting an NBA team.

There have been over 350 murders in the city in 2017-2018 and per the Metro Police's own data, motive is unknown in 212 of them. Either there aren't resources to handle it or those resources aren't being deployed properly or some combination of the two. It's a black eye for the region to have such a high murder rate year after year and don't think that doesn't come into play when STL is competing with other cities for events/teams.

As alaman said, the carjackings might actually be the bigger problem as it's more likely to deter people coming into the city to spend money.

re: Downtown

I'm glad things are looking better in certain sections. I don't get downtown as much as I did before I had kids. I do know the last time I saw a show at the Opera House/Stifel Theatre there was seemingly nowhere to go within walking distance after the show.

While not entirely true, I mostly agree with the bold part of your post. Hopefully the Municipal Courts project will change this. The building itself is being redeveloped into a hotel but there is a phase 2 component for the parking lot behind the building that sits directly across from Enterprise Arena. The plan was to build a parking garage on the lot with first floor commercial (including restaurant(s) and bars). There are over 200+ days a year where Enterprise or Stifel Theatre is hosting an event so the demand is certainly there.