OT Cards fire Matheny

[Cowboy]

-who is the best baseball manager in the present day? could they win with that roster?

[brianstl]

2 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-who is the best baseball manager in the present day? could they win with that roster?

It depends on what your definition of win is.  It is a playoff roster.  It isn't a world championship roster.

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, Matty Light said:

Cardinals should give consideration to Terry Pendleton.  Long time Cardinal, long time Brave's coach and pupil of Bobby Cox.  He probably would get along great with Mike Maddux (who isn't going anywhere).  He played with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and helped mentor a young Chipper Jones to take over his own 3B position.  He is a former MVP, Gold Glover and Batting Champion.  He is highly thought of and would probably do very well with the players.

Here is Derrick Goold's response to that question in his chat yesterday.

GOOLD:  I asked around about this Sunday because he's been mentioned before as a rising manager candidate. One thing I was told was how Pendleton has been looking for a situation where he could, in part, pick a coaching staff as well. Not sure that's going to be the case entirely with the Cardinals. They'll have Shildt there and Maddux of course, and several other coaches are valued by the organization like Oquendo with his two-year deal and McGee, of course. So, is that the situation Pendleton wants? He may not have the choice if he wants to be manager -- or he may only want to be manager if he has the choice.

[billiken_roy]

21 minutes ago, brianstl said:

It depends on what your definition of win is.  It is a playoff roster.  It isn't a world championship roster.

considering the strength of the cubs and brewers and the up and coming rosters of the braves and phillies not to mention washington and the level of strength pretty much up and down the division out west, i dont see how this cardinal team is even a wild card team.   major changes need to be made to this roster imo.  id tear it down completely and start over.   

[brianstl]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

considering the strength of the cubs and brewers and the up and coming rosters of the braves and phillies not to mention washington and the level of strength pretty much up and down the division out west, i dont see how this cardinal team is even a wild card team.   major changes need to be made to this roster imo.  id tear it down completely and start over.   

Well, if you think Ozuna is a below 90 OPS+ guy and that Pham is a below 100 OPS+ guy than this is not a playoff team.  If you think that they are closer to their career averages they are a playoff team.

Tearing up the roster completely is foolish.  What the team does need is the one superstar player that could anchor their batting order.  That is what the team has been missing since Pujols left, but the Giants and the Cubs have shown that you don't even really need that.

[2010andBeyond]

7 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Well, if you think Ozuna is a below 90 OPS+ guy and that Pham is a below 100 OPS+ guy than this is not a playoff team.  If you think that they are closer to their career averages they are a playoff team.

Tearing up the roster completely is foolish.  What the team does need is the one superstar player that could anchor their batting order.  That is what the team has been missing since Pujols left, but the Giants and the Cubs have shown that you don't even really need that.

The Cubs have MVP winner Kris Bryant anchoring their lineup

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

It depends on what your definition of win is.  It is a playoff roster.  It isn't a world championship roster.

-I respectfully disagree that the roster is playoff caliber, but it is okay that we have different OPINIONS

[Pistol]

I can't believe we ever hired this person in the first place:

You think a guy who displays that judgment with his wardrobe selections can be trusted to manage a bullpen?

Good riddance.

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, 2010andBeyond said:

The Cubs have MVP winner Kris Bryant anchoring their lineup

I meant the giants

[Box and Won]

13 hours ago, brianstl said:

I want to see how Schildt does.  I would like to see how the guy Kissell saw as his heir in the organization does. 

I feel strangely optimistic that he will prove himself worthy of the position. He seems to have the ability to connect with his players as well as the media, and he’s believer in analytics. That automatically puts him ahead of his predecessor.

Former Cardinal Kyle McClellan tweeted a very nice note that Schildt left for him when KM was trying to make his way back to the majors with the Rangers’ AA club and Schildt was managing the Cards’ AA club. If it’s any indication of how thoughtful Schildt is in relating to all his players, he’ll have no trouble winning over the clubhouse.

[dlarry]

On 7/17/2018 at 11:49 AM, HoosierPal said:

Here is Derrick Goold's response to that question in his chat yesterday.

GOOLD:  I asked around about this Sunday because he's been mentioned before as a rising manager candidate. One thing I was told was how Pendleton has been looking for a situation where he could, in part, pick a coaching staff as well. Not sure that's going to be the case entirely with the Cardinals. They'll have Shildt there and Maddux of course, and several other coaches are valued by the organization like Oquendo with his two-year deal and McGee, of course. So, is that the situation Pendleton wants? He may not have the choice if he wants to be manager -- or he may only want to be manager if he has the choice.

Well he played with Mcgee and Oquendo so he probably has a good feel for those two.

[Clock_Tower]

On 7/16/2018 at 3:38 PM, HenryB said:

So many ways that comparing Matheny to Crews is so unfair.  Let me just list a few.

1.  You say Matheny inherited a stocked team put together by a hall of fame manager. Tony LaRussa had the benefit of a full season of Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter, and Lance Berkman.  Matheny did not.  You don't think those 3 made a huge difference?  Even with them the Cardinals barely squeaked into a wild card berth.  That isn't at all like the situation Crews inherited... Crews did have a great, great team..

2.  Jim Crews was directly responsible for acquiring talent for future teams and he failed miserably.  Mike Matheny did not have that role.  He managed the players Mo acquired.  And increasingly Mozeliak made horrible acquisitions. 

3.  Under Jim Crews our basketball program became an embarrassment....one of the worst teams in Billikens history.  Matheny was in the playoffs 4 times and went to the last week of the season in 2 other years before being eliminated.  In his worst year, the Cardinals had a winning record.

4. Jim Crews gave every indication that he was just there to collect a paycheck.  Matheny, on the other hand, worked his ass off.  He always gave his very best effort.  I sure never felt that way about Crews.

I personally think managers are highly overrated.  I can show you countless examples of managers, including those in the hall of fame, who had horrible seasons because their team sucked and some stiffs who won championships because of the overwhelming talent level (see Jim Crews).   If you are happy Matheny is gone....great.  Comparing him to Jim Crews and how he destroyed Billikens basketball, however, is over the top.  Way, way over the top.

Henry.  Are you serious?  Is that your best argument?  Do facts matter?  If so, here's a few facts:

1.  Yes, La Russa had the use of Chris Carpenter in 2011. Yes, he had been one of our best Cardinal pitchers; however, he was at the end of his career in 2011 when he went 11-9 before having a great post-season but 11-9 in the regular season did not remind anyone of his prior Cy Young worthy years.  And BTW, players come and go and while Carpenter played great for LaRussa, prior to 2011 and during the 2011 post-season,  Mattheny did have a new face in Carlos Martinez along with Adam Wainwright another top Cardinal pitcher - who missed all of 2011 - and yet LaRussa and the Cardinals won the World Series that year. .

2.  Yes. Lance Berkman had an unexpected and incredible year in 2011 - Comeback Player of the Year, great Post Season... but he essentially was a Cardinal for only 1 year.  HOF LaRussa coached him only 1 year and Berkman was not reason I had said the Cardinals were stacked.  LaRussa was a great manager for us, for many years, and all but 1 of them were without Berkman.

3. Yes.  Pujols was definitely a big loss.  Then again, I'll take his years prior to 2012 rather than 2012 to the present.  And, as mentioned, Matheny did have Holiday, Molina, M Carpenter etc. still in the lineup. Nonetheless, Matheny was not fired b/c Pujols left the Cardinals 7 years ago.

Could Mozelak have done better?  Should he have done better?  Sure.  But current players didn't all like to play for Mattheny.  Heyward didn't want to stay.  Others didn't want to come.  Playing for the manger should be a selling point for the general manger -- not a disadvantage. McGuire, Izzy, Eckersley?  Can you name any players who came to player for Matheny  even though Jockety and Mo were responsible for obtaining the players?  I don't. I can name quite a few players who did not want to play for Crews.  And now that Crews is goen, just seems like there is great interest to come to SLU and play for Ford whereas there was almost no interest under Crews.

And how do explain away the poor coaching?  The bad game day tactical decisions.  The horrible use of the bull pen?  Inability to take advantage of a double switch or sacrifice.  Poor fundamentals. I am reminded of another bad tactician - Jim Crews who also used questionable lineups, who also did not get along with players, who refused to call a timeout or practice inbound or set plays (as opposed to bullpen use or double switches) who presided over poor fundamental play, etc.

Funny you mention Crews simply cashing a paycheck.  I agree as to Crews and suggest that Matheny is closer than one might think.  How much efforts did Matheny expend in refusing to speak to one of his top players in Dexter Fowler for 3 months?  In sending veteran pitchers to be narks on the bullpen pitchers?  In looking he other way when veterans bully younger players "to toughen them up"?  Seems more like a lazy, out of touch guy looking to simply cash a paycheck to me.

And while we are comparing Crews and Matheny, I never understood Crews's loyalty to Jim Platt and I likewise do not understand they loyalty Matheny had with John Mabry.  Oh well -- I don't have to anymore -- for both teams!!

Henry. Believe you are overselling efforts of Matheny.  And BTW, don't just look at the record of Mathey.  Yes, even HOF mangers can have an off year, etc but look at the direction of the program under Matheny --- steady downward trend.  The Billikens deserved better and so do the Cardinals..  

[HenryB]

7 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Henry.  Are you serious?  Is that your best argument?  Do facts matter?  If so, here's a few facts:

1.  Yes, La Russa had the use of Chris Carpenter in 2011. Yes, he had been one of our best Cardinal pitchers; however, he was at the end of his career in 2011 when he went 11-9 before having a great post-season but 11-9 in the regular season did not remind anyone of his prior Cy Young worthy years.  And BTW, players come and go and while Carpenter played great for LaRussa, prior to 2011 and during the 2011 post-season,  Mattheny did have a new face in Carlos Martinez along with Adam Wainwright another top Cardinal pitcher - who missed all of 2011 - and yet LaRussa and the Cardinals won the World Series that year. .

2.  Yes. Lance Berkman had an unexpected and incredible year in 2011 - Comeback Player of the Year, great Post Season... but he essentially was a Cardinal for only 1 year.  HOF LaRussa coached him only 1 year and Berkman was not reason I had said the Cardinals were stacked.  LaRussa was a great manager for us, for many years, and all but 1 of them were without Berkman.

3. Yes.  Pujols was definitely a big loss.  Then again, I'll take his years prior to 2012 rather than 2012 to the present.  And, as mentioned, Matheny did have Holiday, Molina, M Carpenter etc. still in the lineup. Nonetheless, Matheny was not fired b/c Pujols left the Cardinals 7 years ago.

Could Mozelak have done better?  Should he have done better?  Sure.  But current players didn't all like to play for Mattheny.  Heyward didn't want to stay.  Others didn't want to come.  Playing for the manger should be a selling point for the general manger -- not a disadvantage. McGuire, Izzy, Eckersley?  Can you name any players who came to player for Matheny  even though Jockety and Mo were responsible for obtaining the players?  I don't. I can name quite a few players who did not want to play for Crews.  And now that Crews is goen, just seems like there is great interest to come to SLU and play for Ford whereas there was almost no interest under Crews.

And how do explain away the poor coaching?  The bad game day tactical decisions.  The horrible use of the bull pen?  Inability to take advantage of a double switch or sacrifice.  Poor fundamentals. I am reminded of another bad tactician - Jim Crews who also used questionable lineups, who also did not get along with players, who refused to call a timeout or practice inbound or set plays (as opposed to bullpen use or double switches) who presided over poor fundamental play, etc.

Funny you mention Crews simply cashing a paycheck.  I agree as to Crews and suggest that Matheny is closer than one might think.  How much efforts did Matheny expend in refusing to speak to one of his top players in Dexter Fowler for 3 months?  In sending veteran pitchers to be narks on the bullpen pitchers?  In looking he other way when veterans bully younger players "to toughen them up"?  Seems more like a lazy, out of touch guy looking to simply cash a paycheck to me.

And while we are comparing Crews and Matheny, I never understood Crews's loyalty to Jim Platt and I likewise do not understand they loyalty Matheny had with John Mabry.  Oh well -- I don't have to anymore -- for both teams!!

Henry. Believe you are overselling efforts of Matheny.  And BTW, don't just look at the record of Mathey.  Yes, even HOF mangers can have an off year, etc but look at the direction of the program under Matheny --- steady downward trend.  The Billikens deserved better and so do the Cardinals..  

Take a deep breath.  Now count to ten. Answer to your question is  yes...I am serious. Comparing Matheny to the man referred by many as "dead" is not fair.  I am not telling you to agree with me.  Feel free to wallow in the muck of the Bernie haters if you choose to.  How did you like the game last night? I thought since Matheny was gone all the crap baseball would be ending. You know...3 errors, getting picked off first, not knowing when to pull the starter,  and horrendous relief pitching. I guess you loved that Schildt plans to stick with Fowler.  What a great game he had last night.

I have said many times that managers are way overrated...it takes players...we don't have them. But if it makes you feel better to blame all problems on Matheny,  go for it.  You will have a lot of company.  Now to quote Bernie after he writes an attack column, thanks for reading!

[billiken_roy]

i guess carpenter heard i was kinda downplaying him in this thread.   guess he showed me today.  

[slufanskip]

14 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i guess carpenter heard i was kinda downplaying him in this thread.   guess he showed me today.  

He's been showing you the last almost 3 months. Today has been crazy good though. Good of you to finally notice.

[majerus mojo]

3 bases shy of the all-time record. Oof.

Also Norwood only gave up 1 of the 15 (and counting) runs, in 2 innings of work, so I think he’s an all-star now?

[brianstl]

Roy, start talking sh!t about Holland.

[RamJAMTIME]

Carp has 8 homers in the last 5 days. His last 12 hits are for extra bases. He's on another level right now.  Roy, keep up the good work!

[billiken_roy]

in self defense, i did say that carpenter was the best player on the team.   i just didnt think the league leaders would be interested in him playing on their teams.   undoubtedly as of late, carpenter has opened everyone's eyes hitting on another level.  

[slufanskip]

9 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

in self defense, i did say that carpenter was the best player on the team.   i just didnt think the league leaders would be interested in him playing on their teams.   undoubtedly as of late, carpenter has opened everyone's eyes hitting on another level.  

He has been going crazy. However, even before the last 6 days he'd have been the starting 1st or 3rd baseman for the Yanks. 

[slufan13]

Carpenter needs to be able to produce like this batting 3rd or 4th instead of leadoff

[slufanskip]

32 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

Carpenter needs to be able to produce like this batting 3rd or 4th instead of leadoff

It'd be nice if he could but for whatever crazy reason he seems to hit better leading off. I'll still take it. 

[willie]

4 hours ago, slufan13 said:

Carpenter needs to be able to produce like this batting 3rd or 4th instead of leadoff

Just leave him alone. The old saying applies. If it ain’t broke.