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OT Cards fire Matheny


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They should have fired Mo too he built the team.

Dewitt thinks this is a playoff team, I disagree.

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1 hour ago, CBFan said:

They should have fired Mo too he built the team.

Dewitt thinks this is a playoff team, I disagree.

while i am not a matheny fan, imo there is very little talent on this team.   the cardinals best player, carpenter, couldnt start for the yankees.   i am not sure if he would play on the brewers or the braves even.   when your player talent is that bad, while the manager might not be doing a good job, it screams that the general manager is doing even worse.

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Mo is not getting fired yet at least.  He just got promoted to head of baseball operations last year - the position that Dewitt's son had.  Yes Mo built this team but the problem is Matheny did not handle the players well so you do not know if the problem is the players are not good or are they just full up of Matheny's nonsense.  Time will tell.  Shied got the nod since he was #2 - don't want another Crews situation.  Who ever is the manager now is not probably going to be the manager next year.  Everybody thought the Reds did not have any real talent either but after Riggleman took over they have gone 21-9.  So a change in the manager can make a difference.  The Reds put 3 position players on the All Star Team - who would have thought that in April.

Carpenter could start for a lot of teams - is he a jewel in the crown, no but he is not dog turds either.  This team has shown an ability to have players come here and simply go down the tubes.  I am sorry that is a manager problem.  Matheny insisted on keeping Mabry and it probably was part of his down fall - not all of it but emblematic of his weaknesses. Mo has next year to retool the roster and then with a manager of his choice he will either succeed or go down in flames.

Matheny has no player evaluation skills.  He insisted on signing Holland and DeWitt told Mo to do so - Mo did not want Holland.  Holland has been a bust and part of the reason Matheny is home now.  This team is boring to watch and attendance will not reach 3 million this year.  Just like with the Bills - when the seats are empty then the changes are a coming.  Look at what happened at SLU - fire Crews, bring in Ford, Ford brings in a couple of players and his first year while not stellar was much improved from Crews.  They played with energy and were for the most part competitive.  This can easily happen for the Cards - as I said time will tell.

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

while i am not a matheny fan, imo there is very little talent on this team.   the cardinals best player, carpenter, couldnt start for the yankees.   i am not sure if he would play on the brewers or the braves even.   when your player talent is that bad, while the manager might not be doing a good job, it screams that the general manager is doing even worse.

Carpenter, if he could hit in the 5 or 6 position could start on other teams however as a lead off man only the Cardinals would do that.  I always felt if that is the only position carpenter can hit in then there is a problem.

The Cardinals need a 5th position hitter behind Ozuna.

The decline of this team this season has been disturbing, Fowler cannot hit his wieght, Wong finally got over 200, the fielding of this team is really bad, Holland is a total bust.

Matheny’s team reflected his dull personality.

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Joe Girardi will he hired sooner rather than later. I’m not sure I love it, but that is where this is heading.

The team’s leadership made a disastrous decision to hire someone with zero managerial experience 6 years ago and ultimately cost the franchise another World Championship. The next wave of scrutiny needs to be pointed at the top.

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

while i am not a matheny fan, imo there is very little talent on this team.   the cardinals best player, carpenter, couldnt start for the yankees.  .

This is just a silly statement. He's 20th in mlb in OPS slashing 372/522/894. He had a slow start but he also was hitting into a lot of bad luck with one of the worst BABIP in baseball early on.  He's also 21st in WAR. He's turned himself into a capable defensive 3rd baseman despite the bad arm and an average to slightly above average defensive 1bman. He'd be the Yankees 2nd best hitter this year using OPS as a guideline and that's by a considerable margin. It's also probable he'd be an even better hitter hitting in Yankee stadium. To boot, he'd probably start at 3b for the Yanks. He's a better hitter and fielder there than Andujar.

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Matheny's decision making seemed to get a little worse each year. I honestly believe all the concussions played a role in this. 

This year the guy just straight lost his marbles. I think the CTE is taking over. 

They needed to move on and I'm glad they did it now.

That said this team sucks.  

No manager could win with 2 capable position players and a craptastic bullpen.

The good news is that with the rotation they have lined up for next year it can be a quick fix. 

And Carps bat plays on any team. A nearly 900 OPS and 19 HRs at the break is great.  No team has the depth to sit those numbers. Especially when he can play 1st 2nd or 3rd

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Matheny is/has been a terrible tactician. He should never have been hired.  Despite being a catcher by trade, he showed a disconnect his pitching staff.  Each year, he ruined the bullpen and even many of our starters have struggled under him.  Initially, he appeared to be a young, fresh face/voice with the players which could possibly offset his lack of experience and tactical skills (maybe he would grow into the job).  Molina also hid many deficiencies by himself mentoring the the pitching staff.  But when a coach/manager does not command respect, then current players shut down or under perform and free agents leave/don't want to join the club.  Had this been like the college (4 years of eligibility), then the Cardinals would have tanked even sooner and more precipitously. Just like Jim Crews, Matheny inherited a fully stocked team which had been put together by a hall of fame coach.  All of us could have done equal to what Mattheny and Crews did in their first (Crews) and early (Matheny) years.  Once Matheny had a chance to put his stamp on this team, the horrible choice of selecting him as manager 6.5 years ago became apparent.

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28 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Mo needs to go. The organization has been in a slow and steady downward spiral ever since Jeff Lunhow and the rest of the 2011 Cardinals brain trust took their talents to Houston.

Mo is a joke and I was wondering what is Cardinals ownership doing when they promoted him to GM.  This is the same feeling I had when Matheny was hired, why would they do that?  I am not sure what hiring a different manager will accomplish with Mo in charge.

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3 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

 Just like Jim Crews, Matheny inherited a fully stocked team which had been put together by a hall of fame coach.  All of us could have done equal to what Mattheny and Crews did in their first (Crews) and early (Matheny) years.  Once Matheny had a chance to put his stamp on this team, the horrible choice of selecting him as manager 6.5 years ago became apparent.

So many ways that comparing Matheny to Crews is so unfair.  Let me just list a few.

1.  You say Matheny inherited a stocked team put together by a hall of fame manager. Tony LaRussa had the benefit of a full season of Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter, and Lance Berkman.  Matheny did not.  You don't think those 3 made a huge difference?  Even with them the Cardinals barely squeaked into a wild card berth.  That isn't at all like the situation Crews inherited... Crews did have a great, great team..

2.  Jim Crews was directly responsible for acquiring talent for future teams and he failed miserably.  Mike Matheny did not have that role.  He managed the players Mo acquired.  And increasingly Mozeliak made horrible acquisitions. 

3.  Under Jim Crews our basketball program became an embarrassment....one of the worst teams in Billikens history.  Matheny was in the playoffs 4 times and went to the last week of the season in 2 other years before being eliminated.  In his worst year, the Cardinals had a winning record.

4. Jim Crews gave every indication that he was just there to collect a paycheck.  Matheny, on the other hand, worked his ass off.  He always gave his very best effort.  I sure never felt that way about Crews.

I personally think managers are highly overrated.  I can show you countless examples of managers, including those in the hall of fame, who had horrible seasons because their team sucked and some stiffs who won championships because of the overwhelming talent level (see Jim Crews).   If you are happy Matheny is gone....great.  Comparing him to Jim Crews and how he destroyed Billikens basketball, however, is over the top.  Way, way over the top.

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7 minutes ago, HenryB said:

So many ways that comparing Matheny to Crews is so unfair.  Let me just list a few.

1.  You say Matheny inherited a stocked team put together by a hall of fame manager. Tony LaRussa had the benefit of a full season of Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter, and Lance Berkman.  Matheny did not.  You don't think those 3 made a huge difference?  Even with them the Cardinals barely squeaked into a wild card berth.  That isn't at all like the situation Crews inherited... Crews did have a great, great team..

2.  Jim Crews was directly responsible for acquiring talent for future teams and he failed miserably.  Mike Matheny did not have that role.  He managed the players Mo acquired.  And increasingly Mozeliak made horrible acquisitions. 

3.  Under Jim Crews our basketball program became an embarrassment....one of the worst teams in Billikens history.  Matheny was in the playoffs 4 times and went to the last week of the season in 2 other years before being eliminated.  In his worst year, the Cardinals had a winning record.

4. Jim Crews gave every indication that he was just there to collect a paycheck.  Matheny, on the other hand, worked his ass off.  He always gave his very best effort.  I sure never felt that way about Crews.

I personally think managers are highly overrated.  I can show you countless examples of managers, including those in the hall of fame, who had horrible seasons because their team sucked and some stiffs who won championships because of the overwhelming talent level (see Jim Crews).   If you are happy Matheny is gone....great.  Comparing, him, to Jim Crews and how he destroyed Billikens basketball, however, is over the top.  Way, way over the top.

Matheny's NL Championship team had a preinjury Craig, Matt Carpenter, Matt Holliday, Beltran, and Molina.

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5 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Matheny's NL Championship team had a preinjury Craig, Matt Carpenter, Matt Holliday, Beltran, and Molina.

I didn't say they didn't have any good players.  I pointed out that he lost the second best player in team history and arguably one of the 5 best pitchers in team history.

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why not let this schildt guy finish the season and see how he does.   at season end if he isnt the guy there will be a heck of a lot more options to fill the spot then there is now.

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4 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

why not let this schildt guy finish the season and see how he does.   at season end if he isnt the guy there will be a heck of a lot more options to fill the spot then there is now.

I want to see how Schildt does.  I would like to see how the guy Kissell saw as his heir in the organization does. 

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Cardinals should give consideration to Terry Pendleton.  Long time Cardinal, long time Brave's coach and pupil of Bobby Cox.  He probably would get along great with Mike Maddux (who isn't going anywhere).  He played with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and helped mentor a young Chipper Jones to take over his own 3B position.  He is a former MVP, Gold Glover and Batting Champion.  He is highly thought of and would probably do very well with the players.

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On 7/15/2018 at 8:00 AM, ChangeOfPace said:

Joe Girardi will he hired sooner rather than later. I’m not sure I love it, but that is where this is heading.

The team’s leadership made a disastrous decision to hire someone with zero managerial experience 6 years ago and ultimately cost the franchise another World Championship. The next wave of scrutiny needs to be pointed at the top.

Mo and DeWitt have both said that Schildt will be manager for the rest of the season.  So your 'sooner' won't be sooner than October.

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47 minutes ago, Matty Light said:

Cardinals should give consideration to Terry Pendleton.  Long time Cardinal, long time Brave's coach and pupil of Bobby Cox.  He probably would get along great with Mike Maddux (who isn't going anywhere).  He played with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and helped mentor a young Chipper Jones to take over his own 3B position.  He is a former MVP, Gold Glover and Batting Champion.  He is highly thought of and would probably do very well with the players.

I like this idea and it's the first I've heard his name mentioned....Good call.

As of now I'd be just as happy with Schildt or Stubby as some retread. 

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