AGB91 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 I would not want to be the player that mocks French if he shoots free throws underhanded. That could get messy for the mocker. almaman likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 I'm squarely in the camp that French should try shooting underhanded. However, it is also important to note that, as @billiken_roy alludes to, shooting underhanded is not some kind of magical thing that will make French a 90% FT shooter. @Bills_06 mentioned Wilt Chamberlain who is a great example. For his career, Wilt shot 51% on FTs, during that 61-62 season he shot 61%. If you exclude 61-62 from Wilt's career total, he shot just under 50% on FTs. Chinanu Onuaku is another example, he shot 47% as a freshman at Louisville, then shot 59% as a sophomore using the underhanded method. Roy said Barry would have shot 90% with any method. I don't think that is right. Barry probably would have been a good FT shooter (like ~80%) using the traditional method, but was historically great shooting underhanded. That is the type of improvement you can hope for, French is currently shooting less than 35% on FTs for his career. If he were to get his % up above 50% shooting underhanded, IMO that would be worth it. However, I'd imagine it would add to the embarrassment to shoot underhanded and still be below average. Another thing to consider is that, French might not be able to make the switch in season. You likely can't just flip a switch and shoot underhanded. It is going to take a lot of practice. However, we've been French working on his overhand FT shooting which IMO might be a lost cause. Therefore, he might as well work on shooting underhanded during that time and break it out in games when he feels comfortable / can hit them at a better rate than shooting overhand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 French would be better off trying to bank everything in or taking a jump shot. He looks completely unnatural right now and I think he has as many airballs as made free throws this year. He is too good to have to take off the court so we need to try something new instead of trying to fix an unfixable form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said: I'm squarely in the camp that French should try shooting underhanded. However, it is also important to note that, as @billiken_roy alludes to, shooting underhanded is not some kind of magical thing that will make French a 90% FT shooter. @Bills_06 mentioned Wilt Chamberlain who is a great example. For his career, Wilt shot 51% on FTs, during that 61-62 season he shot 61%. If you exclude 61-62 from Wilt's career total, he shot just under 50% on FTs. Chinanu Onuaku is another example, he shot 47% as a freshman at Louisville, then shot 59% as a sophomore using the underhanded method. Roy said Barry would have shot 90% with any method. I don't think that is right. Barry probably would have been a good FT shooter (like ~80%) using the traditional method, but was historically great shooting underhanded. That is the type of improvement you can hope for, French is currently shooting less than 35% on FTs for his career. If he were to get his % up above 50% shooting underhanded, IMO that would be worth it. However, I'd imagine it would add to the embarrassment to shoot underhanded and still be below average. Another thing to consider is that, French might not be able to make the switch in season. You likely can't just flip a switch and shoot underhanded. It is going to take a lot of practice. However, we've been French working on his overhand FT shooting which IMO might be a lost cause. Therefore, he might as well work on shooting underhanded during that time and break it out in games when he feels comfortable / can hit them at a better rate than shooting overhand. That extra 11% that season got Wilt almost 2 more ppg that season. BlueAndWhite likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Box and Won said: It was an interesting podcast. I recommend it. I will say that the first two or three FTs that French missed actually looked pretty good. The first one was in and out. I agree...one difference was he had a bigger arc to the FT...They not only went in but were swishes....which is the whole point of underhanded shooting....Big men tend to have less arc ...making the FT more difficult. By shooting underhanded you naturally increase the arc. If he can replicate the arc overhand his numbers will improve ...while his overall FT numbers are still dismal...he is improving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 -HF season to date on ft's make att semo 0 0 troy 0 4 n ala 1 3 s hall 0 1 pitt 1 3 c ark 3 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 For those that are interested here is the science and math of arc shooting..... https://winninghoops.com/article/building-the-perfect-arc/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills_06 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 28 minutes ago, The Wiz said: I agree...one difference was he had a bigger arc to the FT...They not only went in but were swishes....which is the whole point of underhanded shooting....Big men tend to have less arc ...making the FT more difficult. By shooting underhanded you naturally increase the arc. If he can replicate the arc overhand his numbers will improve ...while his overall FT numbers are still dismal...he is improving. I agree with this but I would also think you can be much more consistent shooting underhanded. It is a more natural position with your arms hanging lower compared to having your arms above your body. Plus when you are tired, it is easy to keep the same form when your arms are just hanging as that is a more relaxed position. Can also have a softer shot too which can allow for more margin for error. BlueAndWhite likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_w Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 As suggested, shoot off the square, maybe a two hand set shot. i taught a few guys and we hand them shoot in one motion, not stop and lose rhythm. french gets tied up with his lack of rhythm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 1 hour ago, brianstl said: That extra 11% that season got Wilt almost 2 more ppg that season. That's why it is worth it even with a small increase. Some people might see that Wilt "only" shot 61% underhanded or "only" improved 10% and wonder if it is worth it. An extra 2 points per game might have given us a win against Pitt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Well, if shooting underhanded is good for French, why not the rest of the team too. Bess is hitting a very nice 85% (no changes needed), but Gordon, Goodwin, Wiley and Thatch are all below 60%, and Foreman is at 67%. Isabell at 70% could use some help also. If shooting underhanded boosts the average by 10%, I say go for it. billiken_roy likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Cowboy said: -HF season to date on ft's make att semo 0 0 troy 0 4 n ala 1 3 s hall 0 1 pitt 1 3 c ark 3 8 This really doesn't show the full negative impact of French's poor FT shooting because it does not show the lost opportunities when he missed the front end of 1 and 1s. He missed at least 2 of those against Pitt that I can recall and probably several others as well. If French is shooting less than 35%, there is really no reason not to just foul him every time down the court when he is in the game when we're in the bonus. Teams should throw walk-ons against us and just have them foul out hacking French every time he touches the ball in those situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Cowboy said: -HF season to date on ft's make att semo 0 0 troy 0 4 n ala 1 3 s hall 0 1 pitt 1 3 c ark 3 8 26% ...yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: Well, if shooting underhanded is good for French, why not the rest of the team too. Bess is hitting a very nice 85% (no changes needed), but Gordon, Goodwin, Wiley and Thatch are all below 60%, and Foreman is at 67%. Isabell at 70% could use some help also. If shooting underhanded boosts the average by 10%, I say go for it. I fully expect goodwin, thatch and isabell's to go up quite a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: Well, if shooting underhanded is good for French, why not the rest of the team too. Bess is hitting a very nice 85% (no changes needed), but Gordon, Goodwin, Wiley and Thatch are all below 60%, and Foreman is at 67%. Isabell at 70% could use some help also. If shooting underhanded boosts the average by 10%, I say go for it. The problem is that there is not enough evidence to really say that anyone can have a 10% increase in FT shooting. We basically have a handful of guys who over the last 60 years have shown an increase in efficiency when shooting underhanded in a pretty small sample. Not enough for any kind of scientific proof, but enough to say that someone who is shooting less than 35% for his career overhand (French) should try it. There could also be some other unintended consequences such as messing up a shooter's touch in other areas by messing with their FT method or messing with their confidence. For French, it is a no brainier because of how poor his FT shooting is. For others, it is more of a question about whether trying it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Call in the old-timer in the background. Spoon-Balls likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, Box and Won said: Call in the old-timer in the background. Sign the Old Guy up to shoot HF's FTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Cowboy said: -HF season to date on ft's make att semo 0 0 troy 0 4 n ala 1 3 s hall 0 1 pitt 1 3 c ark 3 8 While it is a very small sample size....it does show he is improving....first 4 games ...12.5%....last 2 games ...36%..(when he put some arc on)...last 2 games projected to make 1 free throw ...possibly 2...he makes 4....Hopefully the trend continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlarry Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 On 11/25/2018 at 9:40 PM, Bills_06 said: Have people here listened to the Malcolm Gladwell podcast on shooting underhand? It is a good one. Even Shaq said he would rather shoot 0% then shoot underhand for the season. Rick Barry is right, it is more embarrassing missing then shooting underhand. On 11/26/2018 at 8:34 AM, Box and Won said: It was an interesting podcast. I recommend it. I will say that the first two or three FTs that French missed actually looked pretty good. The first one was in and out. Thanks for the recommendation I listened to it today, vert entertaining. On a side note, Rick Barry is insanely intense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Pitt leads @ Iowa at half by 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, wgstl said: Pitt leads @ Iowa at half by 6 Maybe Pitt ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said: Maybe Pitt ok? Neeeeed pitt to be ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 The Pitt loss won’t be a bad loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, moytoy12 said: The Pitt loss won’t be a bad loss. It could be. Especially was the same pitt team like last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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