Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[NextYearBill]

3 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Unbelievable.  Someone must have cursed me early in my life.  Whatever the situation is, I might get close to my breakthrough, but then something comes to manifest disaster.  Nothing I dream about comes to fruition in a positive manner.

story of my f-ing life as well

[Old guy]

43 minutes ago, HoosierBilliken said:

 But, what if they (the females) were hooking (yes, I hate to break the news, but some females do this) and the guys did not pay?  What if the guys said something to piss them off, and they (the females) were like, "oh yeah, watch this, I'm going to piss you off too and go to the police."  More breaking news: some females have done this before.  What if their idea of sexual assault was not actually sexual assault as defined by law? 

 

 

 

I may be naive in this regard but I have never heard of hookers going to the police because they are pissed off with their Johns. As I mentioned before, sexual assault as defined by law and defined by University rules may be two different things.

[kmbilliken]

This is not going to turn out to be a simple consent case(although those can also be complicated). Think of it, three women consenting to have sex with four men. There are seven different minds working here, each with their own perception of what is going on. If at some point one decides I don't want this, but six still do, do we have a conspiracy in which two of the women should also be charged? This is a legal mess. No prosecutor is going to pursue a sexual assault case in which the claimed victim agreed to engage in group sex, then changed their mind because they don't like it in the midst of the activities. Will a Catholic University allow alcohol and group sex go unpunished? Doubtful. What parent is going to want their daughter go to a school that condones what may perceived as a drunken orgy? 

I am assuming most or all had been drinking and it was group sex. The first because it is a weekend night and these are college students. The second because it is 4 on 3 and I can't imagine a scenario where three different women went into three separate rooms with three different men and all were sexually assaulted. I'm also not sure where man 4 comes into play in that scenario.

[slufan13]

I don't want to take sides since I have no clue what exactly happened, but I would be fine with suspending the accused athletes for some amount of time for pure stupidity regardless of if innocent/guilty. Before every home game, we watch that "it's on us" campaign video with the student athletes yet they still put themselves in a situation that never had a chance to end well. 

[Old guy]

4 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Unbelievable.  Someone must have cursed me early in my life.  Whatever the situation is, I might get close to my breakthrough, but then something comes to manifest disaster.  Nothing I dream about comes to fruition in a positive manner.

Congratulations Quality is Job 1, you are going through the process of living through disappointments and broken dreams that forms a significant part of what getting old is all about. I have a little understood secret for you: Everybody suffers the same kind of curse, the actual events are or may be different from one person to the other but everybody goes through this process. One way to cheer up about this is to call it "wisdom" and pretend to become "sadder but wiser now." 

[majerus mojo]

19 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Congratulations Quality is Job 1, you are going through the process of living through disappointments and broken dreams that forms a significant part of what getting old is all about. I have a little understood secret for you: Everybody suffers the same kind of curse, the actual events are or may be different from one person to the other but everybody goes through this process. One way to cheer up about this is to call it "wisdom" and pretend to become "sadder but wiser now." 

 

[RiseAndGrind]

39 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Congratulations Quality is Job 1, you are going through the process of living through disappointments and broken dreams that forms a significant part of what getting old is all about. I have a little understood secret for you: Everybody suffers the same kind of curse, the actual events are or may be different from one person to the other but everybody goes through this process. One way to cheer up about this is to call it "wisdom" and pretend to become "sadder but wiser now." 

Just a thought: we are fans of a basketball team. There are actual people involved in this bad situation. Our lives will move forward without issue. Let's not make this about us.

[ARon]

30 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Just a thought: we are fans of a basketball team. There are actual people involved in this bad situation. Our lives will move forward without issue. Let's not make this about us.

+1000

[JohnnyJumpUp]

1 hour ago, kmbilliken said:

I'm also not sure where man 4 comes into play in that scenario.

[Spoon-Balls]

Is there any way this situation resolves without any year long suspensions? I don't believe they would permanently kick the players out of the program if criminal charges are not even being filed, but who knows. Pestello might do that just to appease any people who would likely say that the University is otherwise condoning sexual assault... 

[brianstl]

9 hours ago, hsmith19 said:

I am saying that in general, colleges do (and should) believe female students who claim they were sexually assaulted. Obviously if there is convincing evidence the women are lying, the accused should not be punished. As I've said multiple times, I would love for such evidence to come out. But I'm more comfortable presuming outside of criminal court that a group of multiple women are telling the truth than presuming they are all lying or wildly exaggerating.

This all is in conflict with the latest guidelines released by the DoE on Title IX sexual assault cases.  School decision makers must approach all of these cases with objectivity and impartiality.  Institutional interests can not allow investigators to have any conflict of interest or bias against any party.  The standard of evidence used by the school must be consistent with the standard of evidence used in any other student misconduct case.

[615Billiken]

Didn't Devos recently rescind many of the guidelines that were previously in place regarding how to handle this? I was listening to a segment on NPR about this just yesterday. 

It was interesting...they had a feminist Harvard professor come on air and essentially say that Devos' move was a good thing, especially since she was going to allow public comment in the formation of the new guidelines. The professor criticized the old guidelines pointing to three cases were sexual assault had been defined quite losely, including the following three examples:

1) Someone being touched on a crowded dance floor

2) A boyfriend kissing his girlfriend's back while she was sleeping was deemed 'non consensual'

3) public urination

 

 

[BillsCPA]

I remember in 2010 the police report became public. Is that typical in these types of cases? 

[Quanzo]

17 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

[cgeldmacher]

After sleeping on this, I have woken up to some realities that I'm not happy about.  There are three young women accusing the players.  This is not a Kobe situation or the first SLU Situation or Duke lacrosse.  I believe that those incidents all involved one accuser.  Three different girls are telling this story, whatever it is.  What are the chances that all three of these young ladies are lying about this?  What would be their motivation?  We don't have any sure NBA players on our roster such that we could say that they are trying to cash in.  Going to the hospital and reporting something like this to the police is a big deal.  Girls aren't going to go through all that unless something happened.  They're not going to go through everything they will have to endure simply because they regretted their own actions after the fact.  I would guess that more often than not, young women don't report this sort of stuff.  The fact that these female students reported this is not an if there's smoke there's fire deal.  It's more of a "hey, I see something on fire over there."  We have to stop letting our fandom get in the way of our sense of what is right.

Let's stop pretending that this could blow over.  It won't.  As much as it pains me that this will harm the program I love, I want any A-holes that would do this to young college girls off the damn team.  Good bye.  Good riddance.  I would rather have a bad Billiken team than a good team with rapists on it.

[JMM28]

30 minutes ago, BillsCPA said:

I remember in 2010 the police report became public. Is that typical in these types of cases? 

Every police report is FOIA-able, so I would assume at some point a reporter from somewhere will request it. 

 

[billikenfan05]

https://twitter.com/studurando/status/913047291237404675 https://twitter.com/studurando/status/913047291237404675

 

[Billiken Rich]

39 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

After sleeping on this, I have woken up to some realities that I'm not happy about.  There are three young women accusing the players.  This is not a Kobe situation or the first SLU Situation or Duke lacrosse.  I believe that those incidents all involved one accuser.  Three different girls are telling this story, whatever it is.  What are the chances that all three of these young ladies are lying about this?  What would be their motivation?  We don't have any sure NBA players on our roster such that we could say that they are trying to cash in.  Going to the hospital and reporting something like this to the police is a big deal.  Girls aren't going to go through all that unless something happened.  They're not going to go through everything they will have to endure simply because they regretted their own actions after the fact.  I would guess that more often than not, young women don't report this sort of stuff.  The fact that these female students reported this is not an if there's smoke there's fire deal.  It's more of a "hey, I see something on fire over there."  We have to stop letting our fandom get in the way of our sense of what is right.

Let's stop pretending that this could blow over.  It won't.  As much as it pains me that this will harm the program I love, I want any A-holes that would do this to young college girls off the damn team.  Good bye.  Good riddance.  I would rather have a bad Billiken team than a good team with rapists on it.

No offense but the numbers aren't as relevant as you think.  People stick together, peer pressure can be a defining issue, collective shame can lead to collective accusation.  I have no information pointing in any direction but I'm still not ready to just throw out the babies with the bathwater 

[rgbilliken]

1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

After sleeping on this, I have woken up to some realities that I'm not happy about.  There are three young women accusing the players.  This is not a Kobe situation or the first SLU Situation or Duke lacrosse.  I believe that those incidents all involved one accuser.  Three different girls are telling this story, whatever it is.  What are the chances that all three of these young ladies are lying about this?  What would be their motivation?  We don't have any sure NBA players on our roster such that we could say that they are trying to cash in.  Going to the hospital and reporting something like this to the police is a big deal.  Girls aren't going to go through all that unless something happened.  They're not going to go through everything they will have to endure simply because they regretted their own actions after the fact.  I would guess that more often than not, young women don't report this sort of stuff.  The fact that these female students reported this is not an if there's smoke there's fire deal.  It's more of a "hey, I see something on fire over there."  We have to stop letting our fandom get in the way of our sense of what is right.

Let's stop pretending that this could blow over.  It won't.  As much as it pains me that this will harm the program I love, I want any A-holes that would do this to young college girls off the damn team.  Good bye.  Good riddance.  I would rather have a bad Billiken team than a good team with rapists on it.

As a woman who graduated from SLU about 5 years ago, I agree with this. I'm not saying it's impossible that they could have made it up. But most of the gray area type sexual assault does go unreported. Nearly all of my friends and I have all had the experience of consent being foggy: you're drunk and he's not; you're drunk and he's less drunk; you consent to sexual contact but not sex and he assumes you consent to sex by making out; you consent to sex but he does something you didn't consent to such as taking the condom off without telling you (actually happened to me!); the list goes on. The point is, hardly anyone reports it because it's A) impossible to prove, B )  inevitable that your character will be dragged through the mud, and C) unclear whether it's an assault even to the person to whom it happened. Of course people shouldn't be punished by the justice system if they aren't found guilty in a fair trial, and people who falsely accuse should face consequences.  But I'm inclined to believe that there's probably something here if three women are coming forward, based on what I know goes reported/unreported and what I know happens when women do report it. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by rgbilliken
Edited because B ) without a space turns into an emoji with sunglasses on

[cgeldmacher]

50 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

No offense but the numbers aren't as relevant as you think.  People stick together, peer pressure can be a defining issue, collective shame can lead to collective accusation.  I have no information pointing in any direction but I'm still not ready to just throw out the babies with the bathwater 

I believe in innocent until proven guilty.  I also believe that there is a process in place that has to play out.  However, three girls making the same accusation is daunting.  I just cannot see three young girls all saying something happened that didn't happen.  This wasn't one young lady in a room behind a closed door and the other two girls backing her story.  Two of the girls went to the hospital.

[RUBillsFan]

I have none of the details about this particular situation that others are alluding to.  If someone wants to PM them to me, that's fine, but I'm sure they'll come out eventually anyways.

That being said, I think there can absolutely be a scenario where a woman or even multiple women believe 100% they have been sexually assaulted and a guy or group of guys believe 100% that they performed a consensual act / acts.  If you were able to explain the scenario in detail to a group of people some would agree with either side.  Likely inherent biases would effect how these outsiders viewed the scenario.  The women aren't leveling false accusations - they believe they were assaulted and aren't making anything up when describing what happened.  The men aren't likely guilty in a criminal sense and any form of punishment is going to seem to lenient for those who believe an assault took place and too harsh for those who didn't..

I might be in the minority here, but this is kind of how I view what happened in our Situation 1.0 (especially for KM and WR if I'm remembering details correctly as reported by RFT).  No criminal charges, uncertain situation, punishment that could never have really satisfied anyone.

That being said, I do wonder if there was some precedent set with the punishments in Situation 1.0.  Therefore, if it is a similarly murky situation with no criminal charges files, I'm sort of expecting the same punishment will be / should be handed out.

[RUBillsFan]

Since we read wayyyy to much into tweets by recruits all the time, anyone care to speculate on this one:

 

[almaman]

8 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

As a woman who graduated from SLU about 5 years ago, I agree with this. I'm not saying it's impossible that they could have made it up. But most of the gray area type sexual assault does go unreported. Nearly all of my friends and I have all had the experience of consent being foggy: you're drunk and he's not; you're drunk and he's less drunk; you consent to sexual contact but not sex and he assumes you consent to sex by making out; you consent to sex but he does something you didn't consent to such as taking the condom off without telling you (actually happened to me!); the list goes on. The point is, hardly anyone reports it because it's A) impossible to prove, B )  inevitable that your character will be dragged through the mud, and C) unclear whether it's an assault even to the person to whom it happened. Of course people shouldn't be punished by the justice system if they aren't found guilty in a fair trial, and people who falsely accuse should face consequences.  But I'm inclined to believe that there's probably something here if three women are coming forward, based on what I know goes reported/unreported and what I know happens when women do report it. 

Well said

[Littlebill]

6 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Since we read wayyyy to much into tweets by recruits all the time, anyone care to speculate on this one:

 

These are Future lyrics

[slufan13]

Just now, Littlebill said:

These are Future lyrics

Very poorly timed