Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[brianstl]

26 minutes ago, TFord and TRavs said:

Just a reminder, at a private school, being completely innocent does not mean you won’t be punished. Flawed but don’t expect nothing to happen. Slu doesn’t want student antifists protesting and yelling rapist at the basketball games. 

If SLU punishes the players for a crime a large group of people don't think they committed, the prosecutors have decided to drop the case because there is something that in their opinion clears the player of any criminal charges, add in the fact the accused are young black kids, throw in that the accusers might be rich white kids...........

That seems to be the sure fire way to keep away the protesters.  That will work out great.

[STL Hoops Insider]

1 hour ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

 

 

There wasn't a trial in the Duke lacrosse case, so they couldn't be found "not guilty". It was determined before they got to a trial that the accused players were innocent. Therefore, my previous comment still applies.

Yep. The truth is almost never known in sexual assault cases. Rarely witnesses outside the parties involved, hard to prove intent/consent.

[hsmith19]

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

If SLU punishes the players for a crime a large group of people don't think they committed, the prosecutors have decided to drop the case because there is something that in their opinion clears the player of any criminal charges, add in the fact the accused are young black kids, throw in that the accusers might be rich white kids...........

That seems to be the sure fire way to keep away the protesters.  That will work out great.

Ignoring allegations by female students against male D1 athletes who enjoy another type of "privilege" generally doesn't work out very well politically either, regardless of whether they could prove their allegations in a court of law. I would be shocked if the players accused are allowed to play this season without some kind of consequence, even assuming there is nothing filed criminally.

[WestCoastBilliken]

6 minutes ago, brianstl said:

If SLU punishes the players for a crime a large group of people don't think they committed, the prosecutors have decided to drop the case because there is something that in their opinion clears the player of any criminal charges, add in the fact the accused are young black kids, throw in that the accusers might be rich white kids...........

That seems to be the sure fire way to keep away the protesters.  That will work out great.

LOL.  Man, no way to win with some activists out there...  If the Dr does not do anything then the activists will see him as allowing sexual assault to take place and/or blaming/not believing the victim... 

if he does anything, then the same activists will say he is targeting just a couple black youths without any evidence because the 'victims were rich white kids' (even though we have no clue who the victims are - black white green yellow brown purple, rich poor, living in the slums). 

[mrjoelabs]

I do not mean to break the thought process here, but it is obvious some among you know more details, names etc.. Why don't you post that and lets have a real discussion of value. I for one am very worried as we finally were to turn a corner....

[brianstl]

Just now, hsmith19 said:

Ignoring allegations by female students against male D1 athletes who enjoy another type of "privilege" generally doesn't work out very well politically either, regardless of whether they could prove their allegations in a court of law. I would be shocked if the players accused are allowed to play this season without some kind of consequence, even assuming there is nothing filed criminally.

Is a poor black male D1 athlete really more privileged than a rich white kid connected to heavy donor to the school?  Who gets placed where on your privilege scale?  Does everyone follow the same privilege scale?  Do the facts of the case matter to anyone before they decide to show their outrage to the world?

[WestCoastBilliken]

2 minutes ago, mrjoelabs said:

I do not mean to break the thought process here, but it is obvious some among you know more details, names etc.. Why don't you post that and lets have a real discussion of value. I for one am very worried as we finally were to turn a corner....

Because would you want people throwing out your name if it is not true?  We should not be putting the names out there if they have the slightest chance of being wrong.  

 

We will find out soon enough im sure.... from an official source.

[ARon]

2 minutes ago, WestCoastBilliken said:

Because would you want people throwing out your name if it is not true?  We should not be putting the names out there if they have the slightest chance of being wrong.  

 

We will find out soon enough im sure.... from an official source.

Exactly.  Let's also try and be human enough to say this situation is not somehow better if the accused are walk-ons and not stars.

[mrjoelabs]

3 minutes ago, WestCoastBilliken said:

Because would you want people throwing out your name if it is not true?  We should not be putting the names out there if they have the slightest chance of being wrong.  

 

We will find out soon enough im sure.... from an official source.

Sure as long as I could be exonerated because I didn't do anything. I would love a courtesy PM if possible.

 

 

[mrjoelabs]

Just now, ARon said:

Exactly.  Let's also try and be human enough to say this situation is not somehow better if the accused are walk-ons and not stars.

I do agree with this. Either way it is ugly for us

[hsmith19]

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

Is a poor black male D1 athlete really more privileged than a rich white kid connected to heavy donor to the school?  Who gets placed where on your privilege scale?  Does everyone follow the same privilege scale?  Do the facts of the case matter to anyone before they decide to show their outrage to the world?

The only fact that generally matters in cases like this is what the victims claim happened. There may be cases where college women totally make up false accusations of rape, but to allow the accused to just go on like nothing happened because the accusers mighy be bald-faced liars would just not be a tenable position for any administration to take. The victims' race and wealth won't (and shouldn't) matter. And in this case, if there is really not just one but multiple accusers who would have to make up lies about being sexually assaulted, it would be even more untenable than it was for SLU in 2010.

[WestCoastBilliken]

5 minutes ago, mrjoelabs said:

Sure as long as I could be exonerated because I didn't do anything. I would love a courtesy PM if possible.

 

 

A couple people have PM'd me about it already so I guess I will just say the same thing here that I told them... I heard that it was 4 student athletes involved, but I wont give out their names because I have no way of confirming the 4 names I heard were true or not.  No reason to ruin someones name based on nothing more then rumors. We can all wait until something official comes out. I hope the allegations are not true. 

[almaman]

do we know the sport?

 

[brianstl]

6 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

The only fact that generally matters in cases like this is what the victims claim happened. There may be cases where college women totally make up false accusations of rape, but to allow the accused to just go on like nothing happened because the accusers mighy be bald-faced liars would just not be a tenable position for any administration to take. The victims' race and wealth won't (and shouldn't) matter. And in this case, if there is really not just one but multiple accusers who would have to make up lies about being sexually assaulted, it would be even more untenable than it was for SLU in 2010.

why are you assuming there is nothing out there that might clear the players? That not only makes the case hard to prosecute, but actually proves the claims false?

 

[SluSignGuy]

I have hidden most of the posts from the white privilege debate.  Don't encourage me to take further action.

[hsmith19]

8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

why are you assuming there is nothing out there that might clear the players? That not only makes the case hard to prosecute, but actually proves the claims false?

 

I'm going off what I've heard from current students involved in the student government and current faculty. If it's not accurate, great. I really hope it's not.

[3star_recruit]

28 minutes ago, brianstl said:

why are you assuming there is nothing out there that might clear the players? That not only makes the case hard to prosecute, but actually proves the claims false?

 

If the players are found guilty, you throw the book at them.  If the players are not found guilty, the consensus on this board appears to be you still throw the book at them.  Scary environment in which to be a college athlete.

Edited September 27, 2017 by 3star_recruit
Missing a "not"

[brianstl]

1 minute ago, hsmith19 said:

I'm going off what I've heard from current students involved in the student government and current faculty. If it's not accurate, great. I really hope it's not.

I am sure the allegations that they have relayed to you match the ones actually leveled.  I don't think any student government members or faculty members are privy to the details of any police investigation right now.  They know as much about the actual facts of the case as us sitting at home right now.

[hsmith19]

3 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

If the players are found guilty, you throw the book at them.  If the players are found guilty, the consensus on this board appears to be you still throw the book at them.  Scary environment in which to be a college athlete.

Alcohol and sex with people you don't know very well creates all sorts of scary environments in college. Not just for athletes. I don't know what evidence that would exonerate the players accused would look like exactly. I would like to believe some will magically appear somehow and all these girls really are making this all up or at least wildly exaggerating for some reason. But color me pessimistic for the moment.

[Aquinas]

I can't believe we are dealing with this again.   I was so excited for the coachs and the team.  It's hard to see this just going away.  I wish young men and women  would just stop and think about situations and ask themselves: "What is the worse thing that could happen?"   And embrace the idea that nothing good happens after 1 AM.

[brianstl]

4 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

If the players are found guilty, you throw the book at them.  If the players are found guilty, the consensus on this board appears to be you still throw the book at them.  Scary environment in which to be a college athlete.

But they enjoy a type of privilege.

Look, if they are guilty lock them up for many years.  

It is just a shame that some of the people that rail on about social justice and claim that Black Lives matter all of sudden don't want to grant some young black men the presumption of innocence.  If the justice system decides there is no case here, they are already planning how they can extract their pound of flesh from these guys.

[3star_recruit]

2 minutes ago, brianstl said:

But they enjoy a type of privilege.

Look, if they are guilty lock them up for many years.  

It is just a shame that some of the people that rail on about social justice and claim that Black Lives matter all of sudden don't want to grant some young black men the presumption of innocence.  If the justice system decides there is no case here, they are already planning how they can extract their pound of flesh from these guys.

As men, we are hardwired to protect women from men.  We are not hardwired to protect men from women.  Even if it's occasionally necessary.  I have no idea how to change that.

[hsmith19]

23 minutes ago, brianstl said:

But they enjoy a type of privilege.

Look, if they are guilty lock them up for many years.  

It is just a shame that some of the people that rail on about social justice and claim that Black Lives matter all of sudden don't want to grant some young black men the presumption of innocence.  If the justice system decides there is no case here, they are already planning how they can extract their pound of flesh from these guys.

First, I defy anyone to claim D1 athletes receive no special advantages and have always been treated exactly like every other student. Second, and this goes back to Desmet's point, the presumption of innocence applies to criminal courts only. Trying to apply the presumptions, burdens, and standard of proof from criminal litigation to a private school's disciplinary procedures is just as silly and irrelevant as it would be to cry "free speech" and "censorship" when Steve deletes posts on here. It really amazes me how SLU people who lived through 2010 can still be confused on this.

And by the way, I'm not saying I'm always cool with the way some of these kangaroo courts on college campuses operate either. But the idea that Pestello could just let kids accused of stuff like this go on as if nothing happened and that be tenable politically and ethically is just not realistic. Whether criminal charges are filed is totally irrelevant to what happens to the kids as SLU students.

[billikenfan05]

Friendly reminder that mrjoelabs is a known troll. Do not give him any information.

[HoosierBilliken]

At this point, the genie is out of the bottle.  The accusations, a trip to the hospital, athletes involved, police investigation, Title IX, SLU's investigation, media, parents, students, etc.  The damage is already done.  Everyone is in CYA mode and lawyers need to be paid to review everything.  This could go on for years I'm afraid.