Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[slufan13]

8 minutes ago, HoosierBilliken said:

SLU hired Pestello to be professional.  He is going to follow the law.  Despite the unbelievable mud that has been thrown at him by people who don't have a clue about the process, he will continue to act professionally in the best interests of SLU.  He didn't ask for this situation, nor did he create it.  

The federal government has everything to do with the situation.  They created the law.  If there are lawsuits, they will probably be filed in the federal court.  Pestello is fully aware that any false move on his part can result in repercussions far worse than a few whining about him not making a decision to satisfy their own selfish wishes.

Sometimes, this is the way the cookie crumbles.  Their may not be a happy ending to this.  But to blame Pestello is a reach.  Quite frankly, blame the administrators at the US Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights, who shoved these Title IX guidelines down the throats of Universities in the past.  Everyone is scared of lawsuits and making wrong steps.  Pestello has done a fine job so far.  

Thanks Obama 

[DeSmetBilliken]

58 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

So then who does the Title Ix office answer to? 

On some things, probably Pestello or one of his subordinates. On other things, whichever part of the federal government oversees implementation of Title IX.

I have admittedly criticized SLU’s handling of this situation a number of times on this board. While I don’t believe that the powers that be at SLU have been completely in the dark with regard to knowledge of any developments, if Title IX requires that certain procedures be followed, they need to be followed, regardless of whether we want updates.

[billiken_roy]

23 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

On some things, probably Pestello or one of his subordinates. On other things, whichever part of the federal government oversees implementation of Title IX.

I have admittedly criticized SLU’s handling of this situation a number of times on this board. While I don’t believe that the powers that be at SLU have been completely in the dark with regard to knowledge of any developments, if Title IX requires that certain procedures be followed, they need to be followed, regardless of whether we want updates.

i dont give a dam about updates, i just think it is long past time to make a decision.   most of us patiently waited the 60 days as people generally respect the rules.  but when that day came and went 30 days ago, it was time to make a decision.  

 

make a decision.  

[DeSmetBilliken]

5 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i dont give a dam about updates, i just think it is long past time to make a decision.   most of us patiently waited the 60 days as people generally respect the rules.  but when that day came and went 30 days ago, it was time to make a decision.  

 

make a decision.  

I agree that this seems to have taken too long. I’m very curious what specifically made this such a complex situation requiring the longer investigation. Unfortunately, I have no expectation that we will ever receive such an explanation.

[moytoy12]

7 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i dont give a dam about updates, i just think it is long past time to make a decision.   most of us patiently waited the 60 days as people generally respect the rules.  but when that day came and went 30 days ago, it was time to make a decision.  

 

make a decision.  

This.  I highly doubt it’s as complicated as folks are making it out to be.  80% of the investigation was likely completed in the first 2-3 weeks.  Near final drafts of reports were completed in weeks 3-5.  Weeks 6-8 were used for loose ends, other bits of investigation and finalizing the report.  By the end of week 3-4, and certainly by the end of week 8, most decision makers had already personally adjudicated the matter.  The rest is fluff and over-billing by a national law firm that knows they can overbill since they are the recognized leading expert in these investigations. I’d also suggest that Rosenblum is likely not as persuasive as his reputation would lead the masses to believe.  

[SLU_Lax]

56 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

On some things, probably Pestello or one of his subordinates. On other things, whichever part of the federal government oversees implementation of Title IX.

I have admittedly criticized SLU’s handling of this situation a number of times on this board. While I don’t believe that the powers that be at SLU have been completely in the dark with regard to knowledge of any developments, if Title IX requires that certain procedures be followed, they need to be followed, regardless of whether we want updates.

Title IX doesn’t limit SLU to the goofball process we are following. Title IX is not a list of Operating Policies and Procedures. It’s a series of guidelines and values. 

The process is what random law firms and schools are interpreting as ways to stay in compliance with Title IX. There is NO precedent elsewhere for what SLU is doing  and that is why none of the apologists cannot site anything at all like this. It is unbelievably unfair to both the men and women. It in no way delivers justice and it exposes the University to more risk. 

Or maybe I am wrong and title IX says when faced with groups who may have committed sex crimes that we need to make sure to keep them on campus for 90+ days and in classes by having a hopelessly slow process that includes prolonged breaks, we should keep them on their athletic team and keep paying for their travel, but should ban them from games to ensure that if they are innocent that their names are forever dragged through the mud anyway.  If they are found guilty, it is unfair to the women and the school harbored people found guilty of sex crimes. If they are found innocent, they will never ever recover their reputations.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, kshoe said:

Seriously???? When one person is the jury, it definitely makes sense to understand the background of that single juror. Slufan13 was obviously painting a picture of the worst possible jurist we could expect.

and WGSTL was clearly joking about the players voluntarily choosing not to play. 

When you typecast people without any data you show prejudice. Seriously????

[kshoe]

28 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

When you typecast people without any data you show prejudice. Seriously????

You live in a fantasy land if you don't believe ones sexual orientation, race and background could lead to different conclusions in a situation like this.

Please never show up on my legal team during jury selection if I ever get in trouble!

[brianstl]

3 hours ago, moytoy12 said:

The following 2 things could be true:

1.  The SLU Title IX office handed down the interim suspensions; and

2.  Fred P. had no involvement/influence on #1 other than to say "Title IX, it's your call. I'm not playing any role in this." 

I'm not saying this is the correct way it should have happened only that it's possible (maybe probable?). 

You really think anyone in SLU’s Title IX office would come up with an interim measure that no one has used before?  Whoever came up with that decision wanted to limit the damage to the basketball program without having to take the heat for actually letting the guys play.  That isn’t Kratky’s office.  They are proud of themselves even after learning they expelled an innocent student.  They don’t care about limiting damage to the basketball program and don’t care about taking heat for the decisions they have made.

[cheeseman]

1 hour ago, kshoe said:

You live in a fantasy land if you don't believe ones sexual orientation, race and background could lead to different conclusions in a situation like this.

Please never show up on my legal team during jury selection if I ever get in trouble!

No worries.  I am sorry you don’t understand that claiming a person to not be able to do their job fairly without any specific data to the contrary about that person is not fair.  Now if you have specific proof that this person is bias then please share   

[shempie]

There is a scenario where it makes a little sense to practice but not play. This is all hypothetical so please don’t shoot me. 

In reading through some of the other Title IX cases it appears accommodations are made for the accusers. Class schedules can be changed and every measure is taken to keep the parties separated during the process. Who would be in attendance at games but not when the team practices? And while the accused players travel, are they in the arena on game day when maybe those others hypothetically are in attendance? That scenario fits with other things I have heard. Which could all be BS. None of us knows but there is a rationale to practice but not play. I don’t like it if true but I don’t think we will ever know. 

[moytoy12]

3 hours ago, brianstl said:

You really think anyone in SLU’s Title IX office would come up with an interim measure that no one has used before?  Whoever came up with that decision wanted to limit the damage to the basketball program without having to take the heat for actually letting the guys play.  That isn’t Kratky’s office.  They are proud of themselves even after learning they expelled an innocent student.  They don’t care about limiting damage to the basketball program and don’t care about taking heat for the decisions they have made.

Actually, yes, I can see them coming up with something not based on relevant precedent. I’m not saying I agree with it, just saying that I could see Kratky’s office coming up with an irrational interim punishment. 

[dlarry]

Make a decision 

[slufanskip]

13 hours ago, HoosierBilliken said:

SLU hired Pestello to be professional.  He is going to follow the law.  Despite the unbelievable mud that has been thrown at him by people who don't have a clue about the process, he will continue to act professionally in the best interests of SLU.  He didn't ask for this situation, nor did he create it.  

The federal government has everything to do with the situation.  They created the law.  If there are lawsuits, they will probably be filed in the federal court.  Pestello is fully aware that any false move on his part can result in repercussions far worse than a few whining about him not making a decision to satisfy their own selfish wishes.

Sometimes, this is the way the cookie crumbles.  Their may not be a happy ending to this.  But to blame Pestello is a reach.  Quite frankly, blame the administrators at the US Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights, who shoved these Title IX guidelines down the throats of Universities in the past.  Everyone is scared of lawsuits and making wrong steps.  Pestello has done a fine job so far.  

And still no one who defends Pestello can or will say who's decision it was to suspend the players. The suspension absolutely makes their names public and brands them as sexual predators without any hint of due process. So ... who's decision to suspend? For all you defending Pestello and claiming he's done a good job answer the question. It's a fairly simple one. 

[Bobby Metzinger]

31 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

And still no one who defends Pestello can or will say who's decision it was to suspend the players. The suspension absolutely makes their names public and brands them as sexual predators without any hint of due process. So ... who's decision to suspend? For all you defending Pestello and claiming he's done a good job answer the question. It's a fairly simple one. 

This can't get enough likes. This Title IX seems to just be a death sentence for men. Your statement "without any hint of due process" is absolutely spot-on, unfortunately. They already went into this process guilty in the eyes of Kranratty or whatever her name is. 

[LindellWest]

41 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

And still no one who defends Pestello can or will say who's decision it was to suspend the players. The suspension absolutely makes their names public and brands them as sexual predators without any hint of due process. So ... who's decision to suspend? For all you defending Pestello and claiming he's done a good job answer the question. It's a fairly simple one. 

I can't grasp, how to a select few, nothing this president does is ever his fault. He is the head of the University, it is all on him. This isn't his first day at SLU, he has been here long enough that his actions (inactions) speak for themselves. His decisions, the people in place underneath him, the actions they take - all on Fred.

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

And still no one who defends Pestello can or will say who's decision it was to suspend the players. The suspension absolutely makes their names public and brands them as sexual predators without any hint of due process. So ... who's decision to suspend? For all you defending Pestello and claiming he's done a good job answer the question. It's a fairly simple one. 

This will now turn up anytime people do a basic internet background check on these guys. It has permanently hurt the future job prospects and earnings potential.  That seems to me to be an extreme for punishment for three young men who haven’t even been charged with a crime.

[Billy Ken]

On 9/26/2017 at 3:50 PM, gobillsgo said:

Bad feeling about this.  If true, really disturbing and probably more devastating for the program than the Situation 1.0. 

I'll wait for some real facts to come out rather than twitter rumors. 

I agree with this 100%. 

[RiseAndGrind]

So I ask a basic question and it can’t be answered. Par for the course in this situation. 

[Billy Ken]

7 minutes ago, brianstl said:

This will now turn up anytime people do a basic internet background check on these guys. It has permanently hurt the future job prospects and earnings potential.  That seems to me to be an extreme for punishment for three young men who haven’t even been charged with a crime.

I can't imagine going through these past few months IF I didn't do anything. You are so right no matter what these guys are tarnished for life. 

[3star_recruit]

The federal enforcement arm of Title IX is on the verge of collapse.  If there was ever a time for SLU's administration to treat its male students fairly without using fear of government action as a shield, this was the time:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/06/06/advocates-warn-cuts-office-civil-rights-would-further-slow-resolution-title-ix-cases

Laura Dunn, the executive director of SurvJustice, said the organization was already waiting an average of four years for the resolution of complaints it filed under the Obama administration. And that was an administration that made addressing the issue of campus assaults a priority, she said.

Dunn said students and advocates could expect to wait even longer for the department to act on complaints if staffing at OCR is reduced further.

"I think that is a known outcome from the department's perspective," she said. "They know that they can't complete these investigations with such a lean budget and inadequate staffing."

As of last year, the backlog of federal Title IX investigations into mishandling of sexual assault or harassment allegations by colleges and universities exceeded 300 cases. By the time of Trump's election, 216 open investigations remained of sexual assault cases alone.

 

[slufan13]

I thought federal title ix guidelines also state that you have to protect the identity of both parties throughout the entire investigation. This definitely hasn't happened here even though I know SLU's response to that would be "We never said they were suspended for the sexual assault allegations."

Even though I think Pestello deserves his fair share of criticism and blame in this situation, I also think the Pestello disciples are taking things too literally when people blame Pestello. It's like blaming Obama or Trump for every problem with the country. They don't necessarily have control over everything, but they're the number 1 public representative and figure over the country/school, so they are going to be the ones who get the blame (fair or not).

[Billboy1]

Maybe the courts can make a decision-whole process is unconstitutional.

[Cowboy]

-I hope the team has uniforms for the S3 players on this road trip in case a MAJOR miracle happens on Tuesday or Wednesday

[gobillsgo]

37 minutes ago, Billy Ken said:

I agree with this 100%. 

Odd to cherry pick a post of mine from almost three months ago. 

By now, we can be almost 100% certain the rape allegations were false. Whatever else happened, if it was rape the players would have been charged by now. 

I don’t buy that Pestello is handicapped by the Title IX regulations. He could’ve enforced deadlines. He could’ve been more transparent. Instead, we have this Cratky lady (not a misspelling) with apparent total power with no checks and balances. 

S2 has turned out to be much worse than S1, but I’m not referring to the actions of the players. I’m referring to our people-pleasing president and the situation he has created. He’s not just making a mockery of a life altering process for these young men and women... he’s setting the university up for a massive lawsuit when Cratky drops the hammer without any proof of wrongdoing by the players. 

Say what you want about Biondi... he wasn’t a coward like our Big Bird looking-a$$ president. 

#FireFred