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Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)


DoctorB

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27 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

 

That situation was completely different and involved overwhelming evidence to corroborate the victim's story: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/slu-freshman-charged-with-raping-woman-on-campus/article_cdb3cfe2-d26f-5085-9da1-d6eefdd03cf7.html

 

I know there aren't a whole lot of details, but if there was any sort of clear physical abuse then the players involved would have been arrested by now. 

Update on this will be coming out soon. You will question the “evidence”. I will say nothing further please don’t ask 

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A few facts worth noting:  (after saying I am just absolutely sick about this, and it is a program disaster)

if it is true that there are 3 witnesses, in this sort of case, that is a huge factor.  Detectives will be able to separate the witnesses and get stories that are either in common or wildly different.  Very different from 2010.  3 witnesses is crucial here, I think.

The names from that infamous text are basically all over campus including writers at UNews. (Yes, I've seen the text, like most students).  The person who mentioned the police report and FIA was right on, except technically there must be 5 days, and then only those involved and their attorneys have access, at least initially,   Last time (2010) the RFT somehow got ahold of it and published the entire report -- boy was that sickening.  Evidently this may turn out to be much, much more sordid reading.  I seem to recall the RFT publishing that rag several weeks after the incident so I do not expect the police report to appear anytime soon, although these days you never know. (I did not take time to look that up, so maybe it was days and not weeks ...)

The other thing to note is that whether charges end up being filed or not -- there will certainly be internal discipline at SLU.  It will probably be pretty decisive, but will take some time.  The standard in the SLU community is higher than the rule of criminal law, so to speak -- as it should be.  The Student Handbook is available on-line, by the way:  http://www.slu.edu/life-at-slu/community-standards/pdfs/16-17student-handbook.pdf

Among other things:  it says this -- (go to pp. 52 ff.)

Consent may be withdrawn by any consenting party at any time during the sexual activity. Withdrawal of
consent must be demonstrated by words and/or actions that indicate a desire to end sexual activity. Once
an individual has communicated withdrawal of consent, all sexual activity must end.
e
 
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I think it is very difficult to know what happened, who was involved, the extent to which those were very involved were responsible for wrongdoing, etc.. I think there are a couple of things I feel are fairly logical assumptions about how the process will unfold from here:

 

1) There is a very high percentage chance that there is punishment from SLU. As has been called out many times, it is not the primary mission (nor obligation) of colleges to assess punishments that are in-line with the judicial system. Colleges priorities are keeping the students on their campuses safe. It is very difficult for me to imagine a set of circumstances in which SLU does not hand out (likely harsh) punishments

 

2) If you plotted the list of possible outcomes, I think a high number of them come with the likelihood of expulsions and/transfers. I think there are some possible outcomes that set the program back 2-3 years. I think there are some that set it back longer. I have a hard time thinking of many that don't set the program back at all or only do for a year or two.

To Nark's point, we should all hope the players get capable representation and a fair chance to share their side of the story. We should hope the same for the alleged victims. We should hope if things were actually very bad, we as fans can try to come to terms with what happened and that the program/university can forward in a positive way, even if it means a major setback for the basketball team.

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19 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

A few facts worth noting:  (after saying I am just absolutely sick about this, and it is a program disaster)

if it is true that there are 3 witnesses, in this sort of case, that is a huge factor.  Detectives will be able to separate the witnesses and get stories that are either in common or wildly different.  Very different from 2010.  3 witnesses is crucial here, I think.

The names from that infamous text are basically all over campus including writers at UNews. (Yes, I've seen the text, like most students).  The person who mentioned the police report and FIA was right on, except technically there must be 5 days, and then only those involved and their attorneys have access, at least initially,   Last time (2010) the RFT somehow got ahold of it and published the entire report -- boy was that sickening.  Evidently this may turn out to be much, much more sordid reading.  I seem to recall the RFT publishing that rag several weeks after the incident so I do not expect the police report to appear anytime soon, although these days you never know. (I did not take time to look that up, so maybe it was days and not weeks ...)

The other thing to note is that whether charges end up being filed or not -- there will certainly be internal discipline at SLU.  It will probably be pretty decisive, but will take some time.  The standard in the SLU community is higher than the rule of criminal law, so to speak -- as it should be.  The Student Handbook is available on-line, by the way:  http://www.slu.edu/life-at-slu/community-standards/pdfs/16-17student-handbook.pdf

Among other things:  it says this -- (go to pp. 52 ff.)

Consent may be withdrawn by any consenting party at any time during the sexual activity. Withdrawal of
consent must be demonstrated by words and/or actions that indicate a desire to end sexual activity. Once
an individual has communicated withdrawal of consent, all sexual activity must end.
e
 

And this is all in a perfect world, too, Doc. Alcohol use, drug use, even just being overly tired impairs and dilutes the mind from not just articulating words but the ability to comprehend them. She said/he heard will be the key. 

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Bobby the University is not a court of law, its rules are a lot more strict than the laws are. The he said she said may be important issues in a court of law, not so in terms of the University rules. I see no way in which this event could be handled behind closed doors at this time, therefore the University is bound to apply its own rules. I see no way this thing will have a happy ending for the players or for the basketball program.

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1 minute ago, Old guy said:

Bobby the University is not a court of law, its rules are a lot more strict than the laws are. The he said she said may be important issues in a court of law, not so in terms of the University rules. I see no way in which this event could be handled behind closed doors at this time, therefore the University is bound to apply its own rules. I see no way this thing will have a happy ending for the players or for the basketball program.

So what you are telling us is that...we F**KED

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1 minute ago, Old guy said:

Bobby the University is not a court of law, its rules are a lot more strict than the laws are. The he said she said may be important issues in a court of law, not so in terms of the University rules. I see no way in which this event could be handled behind closed doors at this time, therefore the University is bound to apply its own rules. Therefore I see no way this thing will have a happy ending for the players or for the basketball program.

Good point, OG. This whole thing is just unfortunate - having lived with student-athletes on campus in Grand Forest back in the day and also having a sister that played soccer at SLU, I want to see things conclude with justice and mercy being shown to all parties. But I know we don't live in a perfect world. 

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F**KED is a term that covers a lot of ground, WestCoastBilliken. Maybe we will get something that is milder than what many expect, no one knows until it is announced.

12 minutes ago, The Valley Sucks said:

If Goodwin leaves you can almost garauntee Gordon will decomit 

Don't start making dire predictions, it is too early to do so. Goodwin, if involved in the event, or no one else involved in the event can be allowed to transfer or go elsewhere until the DA decides they are not going to prosecute this case. I doubt the DA will clear a transfer when they are still deciding whether or not to prosecute.Then the University disciplinary action will be announced, and that, I think, will be the point when the University may decide to allow some of the players involved in this incident to transfer, or not to allow their transfer. I really have no idea what will happen.

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40 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

The person who mentioned the police report and FIA was right on, except technically there must be 5 days, and then only those involved and their attorneys have access, at least initially,   Last time (2010) the RFT somehow got ahold of it and published the entire report -- boy was that sickening.  Evidently this may turn out to be much, much more sordid reading.  I seem to recall the RFT publishing that rag several weeks after the incident so I do not expect the police report to appear anytime soon, although these days you never know. (I did not take time to look that up, so maybe it was days and not weeks ...)

2010 Timeline:

May - Incident happens, circuit attorney deems there to be insufficient evidence to file charges

October - KM and WR are suspended http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/slu/two-slu-players-suspended-amid-sex-assault-allegations/article_ac3cea15-8003-56e7-8035-d8ca93d41160.html

November - RFT publishes the police report https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2010/11/15/police-report-slu-basketball-players-plotted-pulling-a-train-on-victim

 

I guess maybe the timing makes things different because in 2010 there was no announcement of the suspensions until the season was about to start so it allowed for months of inactivity.  However, if anyone is expecting a quick resolution here or a police report to be made public soon, it doesn't seem likely.

 

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Agree RUBillsFan, has it been announced that the players involved in this event will not be allowed to play when the season starts?, or will they be allowed to play until the legal / judiciary wheels and the University grind their way towards a decision? Anyone knows if there has been any such announcement?

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7 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

2010 Timeline:

May - Incident happens, circuit attorney deems there to be insufficient evidence to file charges

October - KM and WR are suspended http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/slu/two-slu-players-suspended-amid-sex-assault-allegations/article_ac3cea15-8003-56e7-8035-d8ca93d41160.html

November - RFT publishes the police report https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2010/11/15/police-report-slu-basketball-players-plotted-pulling-a-train-on-victim

 

I guess maybe the timing makes things different because in 2010 there was no announcement of the suspensions until the season was about to start so it allowed for months of inactivity.  However, if anyone is expecting a quick resolution here or a police report to be made public soon, it doesn't seem likely.

 

The police report that came out in November 2010 followed Police moving the investigation to inactive status around that time.  I got a feeling this investigation is not going take months to close.

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6 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The police report that came out in November 2010 followed Police moving the investigation to inactive status around that time.  I got a feeling this investigation is not going take months to close.

Can you explain a little more what this means? Police were investigating (at least nominally) through November? At what point did the circuit attorney decide there was not enough evidence?

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If the news report is correct (they are often wrong).

There are 7 total key interviews.  3 accusers and 4 accused.  3 accusers is a significant difference from our incident in 2010.  Those interviews would have likely occurred on the night of the report.  It is not a given that just because one goes to the hospital for treatment and what is likely a rape kit that the police are called.  It is a persons right whether or not to report.  1 individual may have reported or any combination of the 3.

When conducting interviews key witnesses should be separated prior and during.  Witnesses can contaminate one another's statements if left together.

The accused were most likely interviewed the same night or the next day.  If they made a statement at all.  I'd recommend getting a lawyer before committing to any interview custodial or not.

If there is a totality of the evidence to suggest that the accused committed rape the police can get a search warrant for the accused DNA.  That would probably take about one more day.  DNA tests to match the forensic evidence would take a while for the results.  

Those saying this is all "he said" "she said" are a bit off.  There's 7 witnesses possibly more, witnesses at the bar, apartment, on campus etc.  There's cameras everywhere these days, on each person, on street lamps, security cameras.  There's cell data, snaps, FB posts, instagram etc all kinds of possible evidence of possible consent or no.  Lots of possible data that could exonerate or condemn.

Hard to say when one would expect an arrest.

SLU can't be Baylor which acted in a detestable way that was dangerous to their own students.  I hope they get to the truth and react accordingly.   Really bad situation to be in, again.

 

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47 minutes ago, NH said:

If you plotted the list of possible outcomes, I think a high number of them come with the likelihood of expulsions and/transfers. I think there are some possible outcomes that set the program back 2-3 years. I think there are some that set it back longer. I have a hard time thinking of many that don't set the program back at all or only do for a year or two.

q0Kq0.gif

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11 minutes ago, NH said:

Can you explain a little more what this means? Police were investigating (at least nominally) through November? At what point did the circuit attorney decide there was not enough evidence?

Joyce said in May 2010 That there wasn't enough evidence to charge the players, but the sex crimes unit still considered the case under advisement.  The Police report becomes a public document when the investigation is completed or declared inactive.

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1 hour ago, Spoon-Balls said:

 

That situation was completely different and involved overwhelming evidence to corroborate the victim's story: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/slu-freshman-charged-with-raping-woman-on-campus/article_cdb3cfe2-d26f-5085-9da1-d6eefdd03cf7.html

 

I know there aren't a whole lot of details, but if there was any sort of clear physical abuse then the players involved would have been arrested by now. 

Yes, the facts were different. I didn't bring it up to say it was the exact same situation. I brought it up because it's yet another recent example of sexual assault allegations in the SLU dorms. Surely you can see how multiple similar incidents put extra pressure on the school even when they're not all identical events.

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13 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

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Relax. To go a little Old Guy here: Id like to advise those who are new to this board ie post 2010 incident to not live and die with every post you see on here. Most of the stuff said on here is not news. It’s only speculation. Real inside information is almost always passed around in the PMs.

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33 minutes ago, Westy03 said:

 

I was listening to Frank Cusumano today, and while he knows little, he said he did ask a university official about one player in particular(assuming it was JG) and they said that individual was not involved. 

Here is the audio of what Frank said. Go to segment 3

http://insidestl.com/radio-shows/the-press-box

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