Other games

[HoosierPal]

Bad loss for your Tigers STHI. The Illini will finish bottom 1/2 of the Big Ten. Not getting your moneys worth. 

[Bobby Metzinger]

Southern Illinois with a nice OOC win over Duquesne in Las Vegas. The Dukes are a very beatable team. They look undisciplined. The last of ten Smithpeters kids to matriculate in Carbondale had a nice game. 

[almaman]

48 minutes ago, teamarete said:

If illinois hangs on, Underwood should go in the mizzou locker room and tell them how hard they played ala martin.

great

[BillIkenFan_Dan]

Let's hear it everyone MISSERY

 

[almaman]

Davidson trailing early on espnu to Hawaii

[cheeseman]

Actually, I thought both MO and IL were not well coached last night.  The IL guards had a terrible second half - bad passes, turn overs, and MY type drives to the basket.  MO kept chucking up 3s in the second half and missing.  The had IL on the ropes because IL kept shooting themselves in the foot - see above and add missed FTs - but they just kept chucking and missing.  I kept waiting for Martin to call a time out and settle them down but nothing.  Underwood just shouted at the players and implored them but nothing changed.  Both teams will have trouble in conference.  We also have our own problems so I am not just picking on them.

[CBFan]

I was laughing out loud every time MU chucked those 3 pointers up and missed because most times MU drove to the basket they scored.

Coach Martin sat back and just let them do it miss after miss.

I'll take French over Tilmon or Porter.

SIUC finished of Duquesne late in the game in an up and down game to end the Dukes 7 game winning streak.

#Freethe3

[teamarete]

10 hours ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

So you want him to lie?  

Talk about dense. 

[teamarete]

1 hour ago, cheeseman said:

Actually, I thought both MO and IL were not well coached last night.  The IL guards had a terrible second half - bad passes, turn overs, and MY type drives to the basket.  MO kept chucking up 3s in the second half and missing.  The had IL on the ropes because IL kept shooting themselves in the foot - see above and add missed FTs - but they just kept chucking and missing.  I kept waiting for Martin to call a time out and settle them down but nothing.  Underwood just shouted at the players and implored them but nothing changed.  Both teams will have trouble in conference.  We also have our own problems so I am not just picking on them.

It's kind of funny, there have been quite a few articles on Twitter this past week or so saying what a fine job Martin and crew are doing developing Tilmon.  Tilmon played 32 minutes last  night with no foul trouble and took 5 shots.  Illinois had a 6-7 post and a 6-10 finesse post guarding him and Tilmon got 5 shots.

[billiken_roy]

Illinois inside guys appear to me to be very average, yet tillmon only got 5 shots and barnett and Robertson shot 30 times.   The fact Martin wasn't smart enough to use his biggest advantage in the game speaks volumes to the final outcome.   I hope EJ Liddell took note of the poor treatment Martin gives his superior inside players.  Cross mi$$ouri off you list EJ.   Not the place to go.

[RiseAndGrind]

3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

Illinois inside guys appear to me to be very average, yet tillmon only got 5 shots and barnett and Robertson shot 30 times.   The fact Martin wasn't smart enough to use his biggest advantage in the game speaks volumes to the final outcome.   I hope EJ Liddell took note of the poor treatment Martin gives his superior inside players.  Cross mi$$ouri off you list EJ.   Not the place to go.

Leron Black had a great game...

[STL Hoops Insider]

23 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

Bad loss for your Tigers STHI. The Illini will finish bottom 1/2 of the Big Ten. Not getting your moneys worth. 

From trash to 10-3, I’ll take it. Paid to revive the program, so far, so good.

[STL Hoops Insider]

12 hours ago, CBFan said:

I was laughing out loud every time MU chucked those 3 pointers up and missed because most times MU drove to the basket they scored.

Coach Martin sat back and just let them do it miss after miss.

I'll take French over Tilmon or Porter.

SIUC finished of Duquesne late in the game in an up and down game to end the Dukes 7 game winning streak.

#Freethe3

They’ve shot the 3 well all year. Off nights happen. I was more upset at the defense.

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

From trash to 10-3, I’ll take it. Paid to revive the program, so far, so good.

Paid to revive the program? WTF are you talking about? At Cal and Tennessee the coach prior to Cuonzo took the team deeper into the NCAA than Counzo ever did,  Counzo is the guy you hire to stabilize the program when you get in trouble.  

[teamarete]

15 hours ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

They’ve shot the 3 well all year. Off nights happen. I was more upset at the defense.

2 ncaa tourneys in 9 years equals being hired to revive a program?  Yeah, ok.

[Quality Is Job 1]

6 minutes ago, teamarete said:

2 ncaa tourneys in 9 years equals being hired to revive a program?  Yeah, ok.

Well, when a program is as decimated as Mizzou has been by Suitcase Mike Anderson, Frank Haithers-gotta-hate, and Kim Anderson (a true son, but the family black sheep as a coach), then, yeah, Cuonzo Martin's modest accomplishments represent a significant change in fortunes.

[teamarete]

10 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Well, when a program is as decimated as Mizzou has been by Suitcase Mike Anderson, Frank Haithers-gotta-hate, and Kim Anderson (a true son, but the family black sheep as a coach), then, yeah, Cuonzo Martin's modest accomplishments represent a significant change in fortunes.

Anderson averaged 22 wins with 3 ncaa appearances and a final 8 appearance  and haith averaged  25 wins with 2 ncaa appearances.  Kim stunk, no doubt.  Missouri was hardly a wasteland.  Cuonzo's marks are no better than mikes or franks.

[Coach314]

13 minutes ago, teamarete said:

Anderson averaged 22 wins with 3 ncaa appearances and a final 8 appearance  and haith averaged  25 wins with 2 ncaa appearances.  Kim stunk, no doubt.  Missouri was hardly a wasteland.  Cuonzo's marks are no better than mikes or franks.

Martin like Ford were hired to revive programs.  I think both fan bases are happy so far.  

[615Billiken]

I'll provide my two cents on the Cuonzo Martin discussion being had, as well as my outsider thoughts on the state of Mizzou ball at this point in the season. (This is not a Mizzou forum, but it is the 'other games' thread. I say this to ward of the "take your talk to tigerboard" people with their panties in a bunch). My reflections below:

13 games into the season last year Mizzou was 5-8. Today they are 10-3. That is undoubtedly an improvement. I would sat that Cuonzo has succeeded in reviving the program in a literal sense. It was a dead program, with 3 straight loosing seasons behind it. Now, at least they are a team with a pulse. In this sense @STL Hoops Insider is not wrong. Cuonzo was brought in to do this. I also agree with @brianstl that Cuonzo didn't have the best credentials. He is not a big time winning coach. However, he offered something not many could. He has local ties, ties to the Porters (which was an immediate lifeline for the program), and has proven to be a  pretty good recruiter. 

Missouri is not a sexy destination whatsoever. Yes, they are a P5 team that will naturally attract better talent than your average mid major, but even then Mizzou isn't exactly a beautiful campus, Columbia isn't the best college town, and the program isn't as storied as others in the SEC or other P5 teams. Cuonzo, with his direct ties to talent pipelines was a person who could make the program a little sexier for local talent and provide at least one competitive advantage. I think it is fair to say he did that at least in his arrival. He worked his local ties and made the team a destination for players like Tilmon (we can talk about his tactics, but that is beside the point of this post), and even attracted some outside talent like Blake Harris. 

Now, Martin's (and Mizzou's) real test of success is whether they can transform this early recruiting success and energy/excitement around the program into sustained success on the court. I don't expect them to be the next Kentucky or Duke, but can they be at least contend for the tournament and be a top 5 SEC team year in year out? I think that is the true measure of success for Mizzou. Feel free to disagree that this should be the programs unit of measurement, that is simply how I see it. 

Perhaps it is way too early to tell, but from I have seen, it appears as if the team IS NOT on track to that sustained success. Yes, they are 10-3 and that demonstrates some level of improvement that is undeniable. But, lets break down that record:

-Out of those 10 wins, 6 have been against 'cupcakes' (Wagner, Emporia St., Long Beach, Green Bay, North Florida, Stephen F. Austin). I would say that ANY (and I mean ANY)  P5 time should be favored against ANY of those 6 teams. So, for this six wins, they have simply meet basic expectations. 

-Against other P5 teams, Mizzou is 2-3. They beat Iowa State, who is currently 9-2 but they have a weak schedule. They beat St. John's, which is a legitimately good tournament team. This is their best win so far and I will give them that one. 

-The other two games they have won have come against UCF and Miami (OH). UCF was a pretty good win, but again it seems like they just had more talent. Miami is mediocre and I would almost clump them in with the cupcakes.

 

In conclusion, Missouri has a good record based on a schedule that is full of fluff.  When they face legitimate competition, they have struggled. The game against Illinois was telling. It was two programs who were starting over, and it seemed to be as if Mizzou had the most talent. The fact that they struggled so much let me know that they are not developing as well as they should, and that is directly on Cuonzo's coaching (again, he was never known for being an outstanding coach).  I expect them to be .500 or below in the SEC and miss the tournament. I don't expect them to ever be terrible, but to remain mediocre. When the years of mediocrity begin to stack up, the sexiness that Cuonzo brings to the program will begin to wear off. He will go from being a home state hero to a sleazy ESL guy.

[Quality Is Job 1]

1 hour ago, teamarete said:

Anderson averaged 22 wins with 3 ncaa appearances and a final 8 appearance  and haith averaged  25 wins with 2 ncaa appearances.  Kim stunk, no doubt.  Missouri was hardly a wasteland.  Cuonzo's marks are no better than mikes or franks.

I agree that Martin's track record is no better than Mike Anderson's or Haith's, but those two coaches did begin Mizzou's slide into "Power 5" oblivion, culminating with Kim Anderson's plummeting the program into an abyss.  In terms of SEC-level programs, Mizzou was a wasteland, and that's with the SEC's not even being a premier "Power 5" conference, outside of Kentucky and (often) Florida.  (Yeah, I know, South Carolina ambushed the Final Four last year, but still, the SEC isn't quite on par with the ACC or Big Ten in hoops.)

[BillsBeliever!!!]

1 hour ago, 615Billiken said:

 

In conclusion, Missouri has a good record based on a schedule that is full of fluff.  When they face legitimate competition, they have struggled. The game against Illinois was telling. It was two programs who were starting over, and it seemed to be as if Mizzou had the most talent. The fact that they struggled so much let me know that they are not developing as well as they should, and that is directly on Cuonzo's coaching (again, he was never known for being an outstanding coach).  I expect them to be .500 or below in the SEC and miss the tournament. I don't expect them to ever be terrible, but to remain mediocre. When the years of mediocrity begin to stack up, the sexiness that Cuonzo brings to the program will begin to wear off. He will go from being a home state hero to a sleazy ESL guy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gonna disagree on 2 things-

1) don't lump SFA in with the cupcakes. I've watched a few of their games and they are a nightmare for whatever 4 or 5 seed they will play in the tournament. 1st in forced turnovers per game, they beat LSU, and their 2 losses are by a combined 6 points against Mizzou and Mississippi St

2) That "schedule full of fluff" is the number 12 strength of schedule 

[slufan13]

Mizzou sucks though 

[teamarete]

1 hour ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I agree that Martin's track record is no better than Mike Anderson's or Haith's, but those two coaches did begin Mizzou's slide into "Power 5" oblivion, culminating with Kim Anderson's plummeting the program into an abyss.  In terms of SEC-level programs, Mizzou was a wasteland, and that's with the SEC's not even being a premier "Power 5" conference, outside of Kentucky and (often) Florida.  (Yeah, I know, South Carolina ambushed the Final Four last year, but still, the SEC isn't quite on par with the ACC or Big Ten in hoops.)

 Anderson left the program in great shape, just wanted more money and to go back home to where he was an assistant for 17 years prior.   Haith inherited a team that went 30-5 his first year.  IMO, Anderson especially and to a degree, Haith, did more w/ the program than Snyder did or even Norm Stewart his last 5 or so years.  Hiring a coach to take you back to an Elite 8 level that he has never been to himself, for a program with only 2 such appearances the last 25 years, is a bit of a stretch IMO.  I think Missouri's basketball reputation is a bit overrated myself.

[Quality Is Job 1]

1 hour ago, teamarete said:

 Anderson left the program in great shape, just wanted more money and to go back home to where he was an assistant for 17 years prior.   Haith inherited a team that went 30-5 his first year.  IMO, Anderson especially and to a degree, Haith, did more w/ the program than Snyder did or even Norm Stewart his last 5 or so years.  Hiring a coach to take you back to an Elite 8 level that he has never been to himself, for a program with only 2 such appearances the last 25 years, is a bit of a stretch IMO.  I think Missouri's basketball reputation is a bit overrated myself.

I agree that Mizzou fans think the Missouri program is more prestigious than it really is.  However, I disagree with you — as someone who has been following the program closely for nearly 30 years — that Mike Anderson left the program in great shape.  He really didn't.  His incoming freshman recruits after the Kim English/Laurence Bowers/Marcus Denmon class were diminishing in quality, except that Mike Dixon and Phil Pressey were high quality.  Frank Haith had little recourse — or so he felt, apparently — but to turn to bringing in transfers, and the slide continued from there.

Here's the problem with Mizzou:  They can't really attract an elite coach.  They tried to get Painter when they settled for Haith, but Painter wasn't interested.

[615Billiken]

5 hours ago, BillsBeliever!!! said:

Gonna disagree on 2 things-

1) don't lump SFA in with the cupcakes. I've watched a few of their games and they are a nightmare for whatever 4 or 5 seed they will play in the tournament. 1st in forced turnovers per game, they beat LSU, and their 2 losses are by a combined 6 points against Mizzou and Mississippi St

2) That "schedule full of fluff" is the number 12 strength of schedule 

1) I will concede that to you. I did not look over their wins and losses, and on paper they look better than what I assumed. 

2) Is that a pre-season ranking?