SLU, Mizzou game talk thread

[goonaha]

47 minutes ago, Old guy said:

I just do not see it. This kid, Jontay, who is a very good basketball player, has lived all his life under the shadow of being second place to his older brother. Why does he want to continue being second to his brother in college instead of going on to another team and be the star there? The other thing that does not make sense to me is that by now the summer practice is ended or should be ended soon, will he be able to catch up before the season starts or is he coming into Mizzou thinking that he will come in and get minutes automatically because he is who he is? What is he thinking? Does this make sense to any of you or am I way off in this one?

I doubt Jontay thinks of his older brother in those terms ("living in his shadow"). I think this decision was based on them enjoying playing together and trying to make that team as good as possible next year. Jontay is also not likely to be a one and done player so he can still be "the guy" his sophomore year after Michael Jr. leaves.

 

55 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Goonaha and Pistol

Nothing personal but I don't believe you have lived through all the bs about the series.  Yes, the basketball games themselves were great.  No, all the unreasonable demands by Mizzou, the backhanded compliments, the talking down to our program, drama, bs - call it what you want - by not only Mizzou alums/fans but also by the local media (most of whom are in the tank for Mizzou) was not great and frankly overshadowed the great games.

Pistol.

The X v. UC games and the Marq v. Wisc. games did not make the great rivalry.  Instead, the quality of the programs is what makes great rivalries.  When the rivals then get the opportunity to play, then the emotions flow b/c of the games.  As you know and in your neck of the woods, our friends at Dayton would play Cincy every year, and while the games were good, they never rose to the level of X v. Cincy due to the lack of quality by UD. Yes, the games were certainly better than the likes of Wright State and Miami OH (outside of the Ron Harper years) -- just like we would like to watch something better than Coppin State, Savannah State, etc.

Look.  There is a reason we did not get invited to the Big East --- SLU needs to kick up its sports programs.  We need to consistently produce good basketball programs and not have major let downs like the Jim Crews years and we need to be better than the Brad Soderberg years.  We also need the rest of the programs, from men's and women's soccer to baseball/softball to be strong year in and year out, to be fully funded and to be fully supported by the administration -- and not simply be a program only as good as the latest head coach.  SLU needs to get its act together - consistently - and not expect that scheduling Mizzou will replace this hard and expensive work.

And generally speaking, Mizzou is used to coming to St. Louis not only for recruiting but for fundraising and to reach out its alums and friends.  Mizzou is used to this with the Braggin Rights game where they come to St. Louis and are given 1/2 of the tickets for their recruits and big donors.  Even when we played in the Scottrade/Kiel, SLU only sold 1/2 to 2/3s of the seats - thereby leaving alot of tickets for Mizzou, and that was not enough for Mizzou.  Mizzou still demanded a game in the Dome.  By contrast, very few tickets were alotted to SLU at Hearnes - and never will be at Mizzou Arena.  And back then, when Scottrade/Kiel was our home (it is not anymore), even that was not enough for Mizzou. Following the 3 game series, Mizzou demanded future games in Scottrade/Kiel and in the Dome and said they would not play at Chaifetz..  And frankly, alot of SLU fans were willing to appease Mizzou.  I am not.  Even the great games on the court are simply not worth it.

 

 

 

 

You're right in that I have not lived through the previous attempts at series. To put it in perspective, my earliest SLU memory was the upset and court storm against Louisville at Savvis. I certainly get the hard feelings. I just think that a lot of time has passed since then and it shouldn't be considered irreparable damage. I definitely agree with the idea that it should be a purely home and home (Mizzou Arena and Chaifetz). If it is pure home and home, I don't see any downside for SLU to be honest. 

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Pistol.

The X v. UC games and the Marq v. Wisc. games did not make the great rivalry.  Instead, the quality of the programs is what makes great rivalries.  When the rivals then get the opportunity to play, then the emotions flow b/c of the games.  As you know and in your neck of the woods, our friends at Dayton would play Cincy every year, and while the games were good, they never rose to the level of X v. Cincy due to the lack of quality by UD. Yes, the games were certainly better than the likes of Wright State and Miami OH (outside of the Ron Harper years) -- just like we would like to watch something better than Coppin State, Savannah State, etc.

Look.  There is a reason we did not get invited to the Big East --- SLU needs to kick up its sports programs.  We need to consistently produce good basketball programs and not have major let downs like the Jim Crews years and we need to be better than the Brad Soderberg years.  We also need the rest of the programs, from men's and women's soccer to baseball/softball to be strong year in and year out, to be fully funded and to be fully supported by the administration -- and not simply be a program only as good as the latest head coach.  SLU needs to get its act together - consistently - and not expect that scheduling Mizzou will replace this hard and expensive work.

And generally speaking, Mizzou is used to coming to St. Louis not only for recruiting but for fundraising and to reach out its alums and friends.  Mizzou is used to this with the Braggin Rights game where they come to St. Louis and are given 1/2 of the tickets for their recruits and big donors.  Even when we played in the Scottrade/Kiel, SLU only sold 1/2 to 2/3s of the seats - thereby leaving alot of tickets for Mizzou, and that was not enough for Mizzou.  Mizzou still demanded a game in the Dome.  By contrast, very few tickets were alotted to SLU at Hearnes - and never will be at Mizzou Arena.  And back then, when Scottrade/Kiel was our home (it is not anymore), even that was not enough for Mizzou. Following the 3 game series, Mizzou demanded future games in Scottrade/Kiel and in the Dome and said they would not play at Chaifetz..  And frankly, alot of SLU fans were willing to appease Mizzou.  I am not.  Even the great games on the court are simply not worth it.

They've been playing the XU-Cincinnati series continuously since the 1945-46 season. Xavier wasn't much of a program until the mid-late 1980s. They don't put the series on hold when one or both of the programs are going through a down period (which has become exceedingly rare). There was one stretch of over 20 years in which Xavier won just twice. They didn't pack it in. The game makes too much sense not to play.

We need to improve our programs but I don't know how that's a reason for this game not to happen. Wanting your program to be better and wanting a good local rivalry game is not a mutually exclusive thing. Why the false choice?

You also have your timeline way off for the SLU-Mizzou series. The games were played in December of 1999 (Dome), 2000 (Hearnes), and 2001 (Scottrade). Chaifetz opened for the 2008-2009 season.

I'm not sure where your information about Mizzou's demands is coming from, but you're off on a lot of details. I know that Soderberg had a policy of leaving a date open for Mizzou until the latest possible date, but Mizzou has generally either said "not interested" or wanted 2-for-1 series or Mizzou-and-neutral series, or made other offers that were out of balance. As for ticketing, I don't think that had as much to do with demands as it does with the simple fact that Mizzou is a large state school and SLU is a medium-sized private school, and the amount of alums/fans in STL is not even close to balanced. Of course they're going to sell more and outdraw us. It's just raw numbers.

If we could get it going again like it was in 1999-2001 - neutral, home, and home, or Scottrade, Mizzou Arena, and Chaifetz in today's terms - that would be awesome. We should not worry about being outdrawn by Mizzou for at least 2/3 games. I think the current coaches are more open to this than what we've seen in a long time, since when Snyder and Romar were new.

[Coach314]

13 minutes ago, Pistol said:

They've been playing the XU-Cincinnati series continuously since the 1945-46 season. Xavier wasn't much of a program until the mid-late 1980s. They don't put the series on hold when one or both of the programs are going through a down period (which has become exceedingly rare). There was one stretch of over 20 years in which Xavier won just twice. They didn't pack it in. The game makes too much sense not to play.

We need to improve our programs but I don't know how that's a reason for this game not to happen. Wanting your program to be better and wanting a good local rivalry game is not a mutually exclusive thing. Why the false choice?

You also have your timeline way off for the SLU-Mizzou series. The games were played in December of 1999 (Dome), 2000 (Hearnes), and 2001 (Scottrade). Chaifetz opened for the 2008-2009 season.

I'm not sure where your information about Mizzou's demands is coming from, but you're off on a lot of details. I know that Soderberg had a policy of leaving a date open for Mizzou until the latest possible date, but Mizzou has generally either said "not interested" or wanted 2-for-1 series or Mizzou-and-neutral series, or made other offers that were out of balance. As for ticketing, I don't think that had as much to do with demands as it does with the simple fact that Mizzou is a large state school and SLU is a medium-sized private school, and the amount of alums/fans in STL is not even close to balanced. Of course they're going to sell more and outdraw us. It's just raw numbers.

If we could get it going again like it was in 1999-2001 - neutral, home, and home, or Scottrade, Mizzou Arena, and Chaifetz in today's terms - that would be awesome. We should not worry about being outdrawn by Mizzou for at least 2/3 games. I think the current coaches are more open to this than what we've seen in a long time, since when Snyder and Romar were new.

?

[RiseAndGrind]

17 minutes ago, Pistol said:

They've been playing the XU-Cincinnati series continuously since the 1945-46 season. Xavier wasn't much of a program until the mid-late 1980s. They don't put the series on hold when one or both of the programs are going through a down period (which has become exceedingly rare). There was one stretch of over 20 years in which Xavier won just twice. They didn't pack it in. The game makes too much sense not to play.

We need to improve our programs but I don't know how that's a reason for this game not to happen. Wanting your program to be better and wanting a good local rivalry game is not a mutually exclusive thing. Why the false choice?

You also have your timeline way off for the SLU-Mizzou series. The games were played in December of 1999 (Dome), 2000 (Hearnes), and 2001 (Scottrade). Chaifetz opened for the 2008-2009 season.

I'm not sure where your information about Mizzou's demands is coming from, but you're off on a lot of details. I know that Soderberg had a policy of leaving a date open for Mizzou until the latest possible date, but Mizzou has generally either said "not interested" or wanted 2-for-1 series or Mizzou-and-neutral series, or made other offers that were out of balance. As for ticketing, I don't think that had as much to do with demands as it does with the simple fact that Mizzou is a large state school and SLU is a medium-sized private school, and the amount of alums/fans in STL is not even close to balanced. Of course they're going to sell more and outdraw us. It's just raw numbers.

If we could get it going again like it was in 1999-2001 - neutral, home, and home, or Scottrade, Mizzou Arena, and Chaifetz in today's terms - that would be awesome. We should not worry about being outdrawn by Mizzou for at least 2/3 games. I think the current coaches are more open to this than what we've seen in a long time, since when Snyder and Romar were new.

I guess I don't get why SLU should presumably give up a home game to play a game at Scottrade, where the crowd would be overwhelmingly pro-Mizzou. 

[STL Hoops Insider]

2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Goonaha and Pistol

Nothing personal but I don't believe you have lived through all the bs about the series.  Yes, the basketball games themselves were great.  No, all the unreasonable demands by Mizzou, the backhanded compliments, the talking down to our program, drama, bs - call it what you want - by not only Mizzou alums/fans but also by the local media (most of whom are in the tank for Mizzou) was not great and frankly overshadowed the great games.

Pistol.

The X v. UC games and the Marq v. Wisc. games did not make the great rivalry.  Instead, the quality of the programs is what makes great rivalries.  When the rivals then get the opportunity to play, then the emotions flow b/c of the games.  As you know and in your neck of the woods, our friends at Dayton would play Cincy every year, and while the games were good, they never rose to the level of X v. Cincy due to the lack of quality by UD. Yes, the games were certainly better than the likes of Wright State and Miami OH (outside of the Ron Harper years) -- just like we would like to watch something better than Coppin State, Savannah State, etc.

Look.  There is a reason we did not get invited to the Big East --- SLU needs to kick up its sports programs.  We need to consistently produce good basketball programs and not have major let downs like the Jim Crews years and we need to be better than the Brad Soderberg years.  We also need the rest of the programs, from men's and women's soccer to baseball/softball to be strong year in and year out, to be fully funded and to be fully supported by the administration -- and not simply be a program only as good as the latest head coach.  SLU needs to get its act together - consistently - and not expect that scheduling Mizzou will replace this hard and expensive work.

And generally speaking, Mizzou is used to coming to St. Louis not only for recruiting but for fundraising and to reach out its alums and friends.  Mizzou is used to this with the Braggin Rights game where they come to St. Louis and are given 1/2 of the tickets for their recruits and big donors.  Even when we played in the Scottrade/Kiel, SLU only sold 1/2 to 2/3s of the seats - thereby leaving alot of tickets for Mizzou, and that was not enough for Mizzou.  Mizzou still demanded a game in the Dome.  By contrast, very few tickets were alotted to SLU at Hearnes - and never will be at Mizzou Arena.  And back then, when Scottrade/Kiel was our home (it is not anymore), even that was not enough for Mizzou. Following the 3 game series, Mizzou demanded future games in Scottrade/Kiel and in the Dome and said they would not play at Chaifetz..  And frankly, alot of SLU fans were willing to appease Mizzou.  I am not.  Even the great games on the court are simply not worth it.

 

 

 

 

A lot of SLU fans are also Mizzou fans.

[STL Hoops Insider]

1 hour ago, goonaha said:

I doubt Jontay thinks of his older brother in those terms ("living in his shadow"). I think this decision was based on them enjoying playing together and trying to make that team as good as possible next year. Jontay is also not likely to be a one and done player so he can still be "the guy" his sophomore year after Michael Jr. leaves.

 

You're right in that I have not lived through the previous attempts at series. To put it in perspective, my earliest SLU memory was the upset and court storm against Louisville at Savvis. I certainly get the hard feelings. I just think that a lot of time has passed since then and it shouldn't be considered irreparable damage. I definitely agree with the idea that it should be a purely home and home (Mizzou Arena and Chaifetz). If it is pure home and home, I don't see any downside for SLU to be honest. 

I don't buy the shadow thing either, he's a 5 star prospect himself and clearly getting his due.  And what better NBA exposure as a freshman than playing alongside the presumptive no. 1 pick in the draft? He won't just be playing with his brother and for his dad. His sisters are or the Women's team and his aunt is the head coach.

[kshoe]

57 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

I guess I don't get why SLU should presumably give up a home game to play a game at Scottrade, where the crowd would be overwhelmingly pro-Mizzou. 

I agree we shouldn't exchange a game at chaifetz for the Scott trade but I don't think he suggested that in his post.

I disagree that the crowd would be overwhelmingly  Mizzou if a game was played at the scotttrade.  For big games we easily draw 10k at chaifetz and could easily sell that many for a game against mizzou.

[billiken_roy]

19 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

A lot of SLU fans are also Mizzou fans.

so the game is set up.   which team jacket/sweartshirt you wearing?   billiken blue or mi$$ouri yellow?   

[Billiken Rich]

I went to the last game the Bills played at Illinois.  Their fans were accepting of my Billikens gear.  It was a good game.  We lost.  Their was mutual respect and zero condescension.  Compare that with the MU faithful screaming that Chris Braun was a (insert gay slur here) all game at their place.  Classy is never a word I could use for MU fans.

 

Fans that like SLU and Mizzou equally are freaking unicorns.......   

 

In answer to Roy's question, they're wearing black an gold because Billikens gear isn't available at Walmart or tractor supply co. 

[almaman]

maybe prison gift shop?

[TheChosenOne]

37 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

In answer to Roy's question, they're wearing black an gold because Billikens gear isn't available at Walmart or tractor supply co. 

I get the joke, but to be fair I am not even sure where to get decent SLU gear. I have significantly nicer Chaminade hoops gear than SLU gear.

[Quality Is Job 1]

7 hours ago, Old guy said:

I just do not see it. This kid, Jontay, who is a very good basketball player, has lived all his life under the shadow of being second place to his older brother. Why does he want to continue being second to his brother in college instead of going on to another team and be the star there? The other thing that does not make sense to me is that by now the summer practice is ended or should be ended soon, will he be able to catch up before the season starts or is he coming into Mizzou thinking that he will come in and get minutes automatically because he is who he is? What is he thinking? Does this make sense to any of you or am I way off in this one?

Well, the kid's father does happen to be an assistant coach on the team, so I'm sure they've (the staff and the Porters) worked through all of that.  He's also probably played some pickup ball with the team (which I'm sure the facts that he lives there and his father is one of the coaches make that possible), so the transition won't likely be too rough.

The family purportedly has good Christian values — and I'm not disputing that — but the lure of NBA fame and potential NCAA Tournament success seems to be too great to pass up.  I guess the counsel that the Porter family is getting is that Michael Porter Jr. should by no means stay at Mizzou for more than one season, so the only way for Jontay to play college ball teamed with Michael Jr. is to reclassify and do it this season.  That trumps Jontay's desire to be "the man" on his own on a high school team, have one of his younger brothers under his shadow, being a McDonald's All American, attending senior prom, etc.

Then, after Michael Jr. declares for the 2018 NBA Draft, Jontay finally gets out from under his brother's shadow for his subsequent time at Mizzou.

[majerus mojo]

5 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

I get the joke, but to be fair I am not even sure where to get decent SLU gear. I have significantly nicer Chaminade hoops gear than SLU gear.

I was going to piggyback, but there's actually some solid gear available here: 

http://slu.bncollege.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=40360&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&storeId=19068&topCatId=40000

[Old guy]

1 hour ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Well, the kid's father does happen to be an assistant coach on the team, so I'm sure they've (the staff and the Porters) worked through all of that.  He's also probably played some pickup ball with the team (which I'm sure the facts that he lives there and his father is one of the coaches make that possible), so the transition won't likely be too rough.

The family purportedly has good Christian values — and I'm not disputing that — but the lure of NBA fame and potential NCAA Tournament success seems to be too great to pass up.  I guess the counsel that the Porter family is getting is that Michael Porter Jr. should by no means stay at Mizzou for more than one season, so the only way for Jontay to play college ball teamed with Michael Jr. is to reclassify and do it this season.  That trumps Jontay's desire to be "the man" on his own on a high school team, have one of his younger brothers under his shadow, being a McDonald's All American, attending senior prom, etc.

Then, after Michael Jr. declares for the 2018 NBA Draft, Jontay finally gets out from under his brother's shadow for his subsequent time at Mizzou.

Very reasonable all of it, as far as I am concerned. 

[TheChosenOne]

52 minutes ago, majerus mojo said:

I was going to piggyback, but there's actually some solid gear available here: 

http://slu.bncollege.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=40360&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&storeId=19068&topCatId=40000

Thanks for the link, definitely some good stuff!

[The Valley Sucks]

I feel sorry for J Porter, you get to be a senior in high school once in your life. Those times are special and you can't get them back. Martin and his dad are extremely selfish.

[STL Hoops Insider]

40 minutes ago, The Valley Sucks said:

I feel sorry for J Porter, you get to be a senior in high school once in your life. Those times are special and you can't get them back. Martin and his dad are extremely selfish.

You're right. Being a high school senior happens once in life. Being a 5 star recruit while playing alongside your 5 star brother and for your dad while playing for a contender and being alongside your aunt and sisters everyday is one in a billion.

[prebilliken]

8 hours ago, Billiken Rich said:

 

Fans that like SLU and Mizzou equally are freaking unicorns.......   

This... 

This is a pre-built rivalry. I loathed Mizzou when I was at SLU and we hadn't played in years. I think its actually felt deepest by the STL kids who go to SLU and the STL-Mizzou kids who "go away from home" for college (because COMO is SO FAR AWAY.) 

Of the Bills fans I know that want the game the most, its natives of the Lou, of the SLU fans I know that loathe Mizzou the most, its natives of the Lou. 

If the terms are equal, there is literally no downside to this game. Trash talk is what makes rivalries great. Let 'em chirp. 

[Box and Won]

13 hours ago, The Valley Sucks said:

I feel sorry for J Porter, you get to be a senior in high school once in your life. Those times are special and you can't get them back. Martin and his dad are extremely selfish.

Wasn't he being homeschooled?

[RiseAndGrind]

46 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

Wasn't he being homeschooled?

Also, he's going to be a star on a college campus... don't feel too bad for ole Jontay. 

[brianstl]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:35 AM, TheChosenOne said:

I thought I heard he was older for his grade and would be able to go pro after his freshman season if he decides to go that route. Just checked, November 1999 birthday would put him at 19 during the upcoming 2018 draft calendar year. I really like his game, but I don't see him as a one and done type due to his more limited athleticism.

I knew I heard somewhere that he would not be be eligible next season and I assumed it was do to his age.  After doing some research I think it comes down to the rule that you have to be a year removed from when you would have graduated high school with your original high school class.

[JMM28]

1 hour ago, Box and Won said:

Wasn't he being homeschooled?

I bet going to senior prom with his mom would have been fun. 

[Billiken Rich]

41 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

I bet going to senior prom with his mom would have been fun. 

LOL!

[TheChosenOne]

1 hour ago, JMM28 said:

I bet going to senior prom with his mom would have been fun. 

Pic?

[bauman]

15 hours ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

You're right. Being a high school senior happens once in life. Being a 5 star recruit while playing alongside your 5 star brother and for your dad while playing for a contender and being alongside your aunt and sisters everyday is one in a billion.

I'm sure playing "alongside (his) aunt and sisters" tipped the scales-ya right.