Recruiting - 2019

[moytoy12]

2 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I think a grad transfer big is a lot easier to integrate than a guard. Since we need bigs, I’m willing to give it another go 

Also, a GT is at least up to the rigors of D-1 ball as compared to a Freshman.  I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't expect a GT big to be a game changer, but hopefully at least someone a little better than Anthony and gives us a solid 10-15 mpg. 

[wgstl]

4 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I think a grad transfer big is a lot easier to integrate than a guard. Since we need bigs, I’m willing to give it another go 

especially a "PG"

[NashvilleBilliken]

5 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I think a grad transfer big is a lot easier to integrate than a guard. Since we need bigs, I’m willing to give it another go 

I somewhat agree. I'd like to get a guy like Anthony. Not a 23 year old with NBA aspirations, but a big body who can play D and get rebounds. Somebody looking to experience March Madness and happy to leave SLU with a masters degree. Anybody coming in with the NBA in his sights will throw off the leadership paradigm and have a greater tendency to play selfishly, IMO.

[ACE]

21 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I agree with this as well although I may be over the grad transfer experiment 

Grad transfers aren't really an "experiment" - they are a bigger part of the recruiting landscape and a whole category of players shouldn't be written off. There are some very good ones available every year. Also, at this point, next year's roster will have no seniors, unless we get a grad transfer or two.

[Littlebill]

18 minutes ago, NashvilleBilliken said:

I somewhat agree. I'd like to get a guy like Anthony. Not a 23 year old with NBA aspirations, but a big body who can play D and get rebounds. Somebody looking to experience March Madness and happy to leave SLU with a masters degree. Anybody coming in with the NBA in his sights will throw off the leadership paradigm and have a greater tendency to play selfishly, IMO.

Where is this coming from?

[SLU_Lax]

32 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Also, a GT is at least up to the rigors of D-1 ball as compared to a Freshman.  I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't expect a GT big to be a game changer, but hopefully at least someone a little better than Anthony and gives us a solid 10-15 mpg. 

I would happily take another Anthony for next year.  A good depth guy and good attitude.  If needed, he has decent size and can give competent minutes.

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

We’re losing Bess, Foreman, Santos, CG, Wiley, isabell, and Welmer. 7 schollies opening up, 4 filled, 3 remaining. 

For the 3 remaining schollies, my hope is a freshman big (Jitoboh), a juco or grad transfer big and then the best available player we can get regardless of position.

Correct - 4 LOIs signed, 3 spots remaining (although Welmer's isn't technically officially open yet, and some say Santos' isn't, either - but that won't stop us from having guys sign in the spring).

We need at least two bigs and one can be more of a project (Jitoboh's minutes would be <20 per game), and one needs to be ready for bigger minutes, regardless of where we're getting him. I'd also really like a stretch forward who gives us a rebounding presence at both ends and the ability to shoot consistently from the perimeter.

[NashvilleBilliken]

13 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

Where is this coming from?

I'm no insider, so you can take this with a grain of salt. However, it's been discussed many times on the board that Isabell may be playing selfishly and it is no secret he has professional aspirations. Additionally, there is no denying that we are lacking on the court chemistry across the board (hence our lack of ball movement and fluid offense). It has also been discussed quite a bit that Gordon caused chemistry issues that had bad results on the court. In my opinion, a grad transfer who thinks he's a star could cause issues on a team that has an all conference big already (hopefully) and enough talent in the backcourt to make a run.

[Cowboy]

Just now, NashvilleBilliken said:

I'm no insider, so you can take this with a grain of salt. However, it's been discussed many times on the board that Isabell may be playing selfishly and it is no secret he has professional aspirations. Additionally, there is no denying that we are lacking on the court chemistry across the board (hence our lack of ball movement and fluid offense). It has also been discussed quite a bit that Gordon caused chemistry issues that had bad results on the court. In my opinion, a grad transfer who thinks he's a star could cause issues on a team that has an all conference big already (hopefully) and enough talent in the backcourt to make a run.

-I think CFord and Staff have learned through this season and will put us in a position to have success

[Littlebill]

Just now, NashvilleBilliken said:

I'm no insider, so you can take this with a grain of salt. However, it's been discussed many times on the board that Isabell may be playing selfishly and it is no secret he has professional aspirations. Additionally, there is no denying that we are lacking on the court chemistry across the board (hence our lack of ball movement and fluid offense). It has also been discussed quite a bit that Gordon caused chemistry issues that had bad results on the court. In my opinion, a grad transfer who thinks he's a star could cause issues on a team that has an all conference big already (hopefully) and enough talent in the backcourt to make a run.

I've bolded that for emphasis. ON THE BOARD. Pure speculation.

Did you watch last game? I'm genuinely curious after reading that. I just have to believe we're watching two different teams if you'd rather have an end of the bench guy who essentially contributed nothing to the thinnest Billiken team of my lifetime than a starter on this team averaging double digits. Legitimately preplexing to me.

[slubillikens43]

This is just my gut feeling from watching every game this year, but I think Isabell has definitely bought into the team more since the beginning of the year. Not saying he wasn't buying in at the beginning but his body language on the court lately has shown me that he cares.

[Pistol]

33 minutes ago, ACE said:

Grad transfers aren't really an "experiment" - they are a bigger part of the recruiting landscape and a whole category of players shouldn't be written off. There are some very good ones available every year. Also, at this point, next year's roster will have no seniors, unless we get a grad transfer or two.

They seem to mostly be low-risk, low-ceiling guys who offer a defined role for a team one year. So maybe "experiment" isn't quite right because it implies more risk. I think they're as popular as they are because of the immediate eligibility and because coaches have so much pressure to win every season. If you have a senior who you more or less know what he's going to be, then you might be able to squeeze a couple more wins out of a roster that would otherwise be younger.

We're in the rare position of having two grad transfers that were higher-risk, higher-reward. Wiley is a potential sharpshooter that we need with a history of serious injuries. Isabell is a high-volume offensive player who has been relatively inefficient and presented a potential chemistry issue.

I think grad transfers choose their spots based on a variety of reasons, but I think the opportunity to win, and play more or less guaranteed minutes in a defined role (with increased exposure being a potential byproduct of both) are the main motivators. That's true of guys going to higher-level programs and guys moving down a step or two.

But almost never do you see a grad transfer being a star, or the answer for a program. You just hope a kid is exactly who you need him to be for one year.

Seeing Wiley keep reinjuring himself and seeing Isabell not quite be a great fit on or off the court definitely gives me pause (not to mention the fact that I see a lot of Xavier games, and all three of their grad transfers have performed a little below expectations).

Every player and every situation is different, but I'm at the point where I'm more inclined to take my lumps with another young player and build him up rather than hire a mercenary who more likely than not won't get you to the next level.

[NashvilleBilliken]

6 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

I've bolded that for emphasis. ON THE BOARD. Pure speculation.

Did you watch last game? I'm genuinely curious after reading that. I just have to believe we're watching two different teams if you'd rather have an end of the bench guy who essentially contributed nothing to the thinnest Billiken team of my lifetime than a starter on this team averaging double digits. Legitimately preplexing to me.

I did watch the last game (and every game I could get access to over the past 20 years). It was trending up. Similiarly, I assume you watched the rest of the games with a $hitty offense and no ball movement. Not trying to say anything negative about our players, but my view in Nashville has not always been positive relative to the impact our grad transfer had on the team. Perhaps it was more about our departed player than originally thought.

No need for the bold. I've been very transparent that I don't have inside information  and rely on internet media/message boards to form opinions. If you have "inside" information, please share.

[billiken_roy]

i tend to agree i am no longer interested in pursuing grad transfers.   the chemistry aspect is so important to a team and getting a player that comes in and upsets that is not good.   anthony was the perfect fit, someone willing to come in and play limited minutes when needed do a credible job then return to the bench to cheerlead and be the perfect practice big.   unfortunately i think most of the grad transfers arent looking to fill that role.  

[Pistol]

Anthony I guess gave us what the staff wanted, a big man with absolutely no ego to help in practice, but it still amazes me that a senior big coming from the Big East couldn't get minutes on such a short, limited roster. Again, a grad transfer with a very limited, specific role.

[cheeseman]

51 minutes ago, NashvilleBilliken said:

I somewhat agree. I'd like to get a guy like Anthony. Not a 23 year old with NBA aspirations, but a big body who can play D and get rebounds. Somebody looking to experience March Madness and happy to leave SLU with a masters degree. Anybody coming in with the NBA in his sights will throw off the leadership paradigm and have a greater tendency to play selfishly, IMO.

He was a great team guy but he did not fit your performance metric.

[billiken_roy]

hargrove is closer to being a pf than a guard.  however i say he is the perfect wing and a great choice to try to fill javon's shoes.   perkins seems to be the same player and i could see either being the bess replacement.  

[NashvilleBilliken]

28 minutes ago, NashvilleBilliken said:

I'm no insider, so you can take this with a grain of salt. However, it's been discussed many times on the board that Isabell may be playing selfishly and it is no secret he has professional aspirations. Additionally, there is no denying that we are lacking on the court chemistry across the board (hence our lack of ball movement and fluid offense). It has also been discussed quite a bit that Gordon caused chemistry issues that had bad results on the court. In my opinion, a grad transfer who thinks he's a star could cause issues on a team that has an all conference big already (hopefully) and enough talent in the backcourt to make a run.

@ACE - are we using "bad posts" now when we have a different opinion? What is it that you took so much issue with to label it a "bad post" among a sea of differing opinions?

 

 

[willie]

We are almost certainly not going to get 2 freshmen bigs for next year who can help immediately. Our juco record is not great. I definitely would take a grad transfer big for next year. 

[Clocktoweraccords2004]

Just now, willie said:

We are almost certainly not going to get 2 freshmen bigs for next year who can help immediately. Our juco record is not great. I definitely would take a grad transfer big for next year. 

Perkins is our first from Ford and looks to be a steal

[ACE]

34 minutes ago, Pistol said:

They seem to mostly be low-risk, low-ceiling guys who offer a defined role for a team one year. So maybe "experiment" isn't quite right because it implies more risk. I think they're as popular as they are because of the immediate eligibility and because coaches have so much pressure to win every season. If you have a senior who you more or less know what he's going to be, then you might be able to squeeze a couple more wins out of a roster that would otherwise be younger.

We're in the rare position of having two grad transfers that were higher-risk, higher-reward. Wiley is a potential sharpshooter that we need with a history of serious injuries. Isabell is a high-volume offensive player who has been relatively inefficient and presented a potential chemistry issue.

I think grad transfers choose their spots based on a variety of reasons, but I think the opportunity to win, and play more or less guaranteed minutes in a defined role (with increased exposure being a potential byproduct of both) are the main motivators. That's true of guys going to higher-level programs and guys moving down a step or two.

But almost never do you see a grad transfer being a star, or the answer for a program. You just hope a kid is exactly who you need him to be for one year.

Seeing Wiley keep reinjuring himself and seeing Isabell not quite be a great fit on or off the court definitely gives me pause (not to mention the fact that I see a lot of Xavier games, and all three of their grad transfers have performed a little below expectations).

Every player and every situation is different, but I'm at the point where I'm more inclined to take my lumps with another young player and build him up rather than hire a mercenary who more likely than not won't get you to the next level.

Not all grad transfers are created equal. Justin Coleman, who visited us before committing to Arizona has been very good for them. He would have been a great get. As much criticism as Isabell has received, some of it justified earlier in the year, he has fit in much better of late. How much worse would we be this year without him? No TI would mean more Jacobs and Thor to go along with Goodwin, who has slumped most of this year. I don't see how that makes us better. And even though Wiley has been hurt, I don't second guess  taking a shot. If nothing else, Wiley helped lead us to our biggest win of the year at Seton Hall. We landed Wiley in June, we weren't going to get a freshman that was going to contribute this season that late in the recruiting cycle. Plus we're only committed to him for one season, so it made a lot of sense.

The bottom line is that we are still better off with the two grad transfers this year than without them. It seems people tend to lump recruits into categories and put up red flags based on prior recruits in SLU history... "let's not recruit JUCOs anymore because some JUCOs 15 years ago were flops or let's not recruit transfers because a couple have gotten into off court problems, etc." Before Cody and Rob, some were saying we shouldn't be recruiting foreign players. I think we should be open to finding good players in any of these categories. I like that Ford doesn't limit his recruiting reach to a couple of narrow avenues. 

Looking ahead, I think next season is screaming for a grad transfer and/or JUCO big. We will have no seniors next year. We're going to need older physically mature bigs. I think it would be a lot more difficult to land a freshman big in the spring who we can count on to contribute.

[Pistol]

5 minutes ago, ACE said:

Not all grad transfers are created equal. Justin Coleman, who visited us before committing to Arizona has been very good for them. He would have been a great get. As much criticism as Isabell has received, some of it justified earlier in the year, he has fit in much better of late. How much worse would we be this year without him? No TI would mean more Jacobs and Thor to go along with Goodwin, who has slumped most of this year. I don't see how that makes us better. And even though Wiley has been hurt, I don't second guess  taking a shot. If nothing else, Wiley helped lead us to our biggest win of the year at Seton Hall. We landed Wiley in June, we weren't going to get a freshman that was going to contribute this season that late in the recruiting cycle. Plus we're only committed to him for one season, so it made a lot of sense.

The bottom line is that we are still better off with the two grad transfers this year than without them. It seems people tend to lump recruits into categories and put up red flags based on prior recruits in SLU history... "let's not recruit JUCOs anymore because some JUCOs 15 years ago were flops or let's not recruit transfers because a couple have gotten into off court problems, etc." Before Cody and Rob, some were saying we shouldn't be recruiting foreign players. I think we should be open to finding good players in any of these categories. I like that Ford doesn't limit his recruiting reach to a couple of narrow avenues. 

Looking ahead, I think next season is screaming for a grad transfer and/or JUCO big. We will have no seniors next year. We're going to need older physically mature bigs. I think it would be a lot more difficult to land a freshman big in the spring who we can count on to contribute.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have signed them. I said that they were both unusually high-risk, high-reward players for grad transfers. And so far, their risks have won out.

Also, you're acting as if the replacement for each of them is the next guy down the bench and not another grad transfer, regular transfer, juco transfer, or HS/prep player. In other words, "No TI" would not necessarily mean more of the freshmen, it would mean more of another player altogether.

I never said these were bad signings. Calculated risks were taken and so far we've been disappointed. It happens, and there's still plenty of basketball left to be played.

We need big men - post, stretch forward, and maybe another. At least one needs to be ready for 20+ MPG. I don't care where these players come from. They just need to be good. And our history so far with grad transfers has not been great.

[3star_recruit]

Even high-majors are struggling to find decent big men in the grad transfer market.  Realistically we're looking at two freshmen bigs next year, maybe one from a prep school.  Hopefully one of them is ready to play 20 min a game next season.  The power forward options in the juco market are pretty slim.  

Hargrove is quick and athletic enough to play some at the 4.  When we play four guard lineups next year, he's probably our best option.

[moytoy12]

24 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Even high-majors are struggling to find decent big men in the grad transfer market.  Realistically we're looking at two freshmen bigs next year, maybe one from a prep school.  Hopefully one of them is ready to play 20 min a game next season.  The power forward options in the juco market are pretty slim.  

Hargrove is quick and athletic enough to play some at the 4.  When we play four guard lineups next year, he's probably our best option.

Which makes sense, right? Most decent big men are probably getting plenty of minutes and will continue in their current role or they will find a league to play in professionally and get paid decent money.  I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I suspect 90% of the big men GTs will be roughly Anthony's quality. 

[CBFan]

So far our grad transfer report card is a bench guy that hardly played on a thin team, a starter learning how to play with a team and is improving and is not afraid to take a shot, I like that, and incomplete because of injury.

If Wiley gets his shot back and stays healthy and Isabell keeps improving then 2 out of 3 is not bad.  Our team is 10-4 and both grad transfers have contributed in these wins and we are not 10-4 without them.

I am not interested in an Anthony type of grad transfer big, Ford can sell our team to 2 grad transfers bigs for plenty of playing time or even a starter.

It will take time to mesh again but I’ll take another 10-4 start next season to build a great team for the conference season and a deep run in the big dance.

In Ford I trust he will get it done.