Recruiting - 2019

[kshoe]

We currently only have 5 returners next year. 2 juniors and 3 sophomores. Current incomings will make the classes look like 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 4 freshman.

For class balance purposes alone it would make a lot of sense to add 1-2 grad transfers. 

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

granted i only have his recruiting video to fall back on, but it seemed to me that Jitoboh was softer than bell.  if we were only going to get one or the other,  i am more than satisfied we got bell instead of Jitoboh.  either way, i dont think they figured heavy into what happens next season.   projects.  Jitoboh will be the same at either florida or tennessee likely so i am betting he picks central florida who might not have quite the inside talent next year as the two big power 5 programs.

They're both massive. They're both going to be long-term strength and conditioning projects. They both have the potential for nice long-term careers. They're very similar prospects in terms of position, measurables, etc. Jitoboh has been a higher-level prospect for a longer time because when he was showing up on the national radar, Bell was still 370 lbs. and playing football.

The biggest difference to me is that Bell wanted to be here. Jitoboh has always been holding out for the biggest offer. His first final four was Florida-Tennessee-Louisville-Illinois. They all moved on in the fall and so he reopened. It took some time and some dominos falling but Florida and Tennessee are back in and the other two are not. He's clearly not a top priority for these programs but it's what he wants.

There's not a huge gap between them right now. Give me the kid who wants to be part of this team and isn't chasing status.

[slu72]

We don't need Mickey Pearson redux. 

[Clocktoweraccords2004]

Thatch is amazing. Everyone had higher expectations because of Goodwin last year. Remember both of these guys are ubderclassmen. 

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, kshoe said:

We currently only have 5 returners next year. 2 juniors and 3 sophomores. Current incomings will make the classes look like 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 4 freshman.

For class balance purposes alone it would make a lot of sense to add 1-2 grad transfers. 

Large freshmen classes don't stay intact.  The class balance issue will work itself in 18 months.  That has almost no impact on your top 8 who are actually playing.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

15 hours ago, Littlebill said:

He tweeted out his final three tonight - exactly who Pistol said

Enjoy sitting on the Tennessee bench for 4 years, Jason!

[ACE]

2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I used Thatch as a example to emphasize a more general point.  The A10 is poised to rebound next year because multiple coaches decided to take their lumps and play their freshmen.  We went all in on grad transfers and now we'll return very little scoring next year.  Again, I understand why Coach signed the grad transfers but we have posters that want to continue going the grad transfer route.  If you keep doing that, you'll always have a bunch of young unproven scorers and you'll be tempted to cover up that weakness with yet more grad transfers.

That is not how the successful programs are using grad transfers.  They get one if he's the missing piece to a tournament run, not just to avoid starting a young player.  

We'll have a lot of freshmen on the roster next year.  We're probably not going to be picked to finish in the top half of the conference.  It's not what Coach intended but circumstances beyond his control brought us here.  Once again, we will have the highest rated recruiting class in the league. What better time to include a couple of them in your top 6?

I wouldn't say we went "all in" on grad transfers... they were basically the last two players signed to round out a roster that the majority of posters on this board thought was an NCAA Tourney team even without the the GTs. 

The fact we have little returning scoring doesn't have much to do with the presence of the grad transfers. - bigger causes are Santos, Thor and Gordon flaming out. If those guys had stuck around and produced this season, we'd have more returning scoring, which is what Ford's plan was. 

 

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Agreed.  But we've got posters saying we should sign two more grad transfers in the spring.  The bar for success will be pretty modest next year. If you can't develop your freshmen next year, when can you do it?

Your point is well taken but how do address the class imbalance?  Do you think it is ok to just assume that there will be transfers so not to be concerned.  Is the constant turnover  just to be expected now?  Can it not hurt future recruiting?  Just asking your opinion.

[cheeseman]

nm

[cheeseman]

nm

[3star_recruit]

6 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Your point is well taken but how do address the class imbalance?  Do you think it is ok to just assume that there will be transfers so not to be concerned.  Is the constant turnover  just to be expected now?  Can it not hurt future recruiting?  Just asking your opinion.

The class imbalance is the direct result of Situation 2.   I don't like it anymore than you do but it is what it is.  Huge recruiting classes don't stay intact.  Attrition will take care of itself.

[dennis_w]

You bring in the best players you can get. If good freshmen are not available and who you believe will develope, then GT is the way to go. you have them for one year hope they contribute and the schollie is available for the following year. Roster churn is what college basketball is now and with the loosening of transfer rules players will come and go

[slu72]

30 minutes ago, ACE said:

I wouldn't say we went "all in" on grad transfers... they were basically the last two players signed to round out a roster that the majority of posters on this board thought was an NCAA Tourney team even without the the GTs. 

The fact we have little returning scoring doesn't have much to do with the presence of the grad transfers. - bigger causes are Santos, Thor and Gordon flaming out. If those guys had stuck around and produced this season, we'd have more returning scoring, which is what Ford's plan was. 

 

I do think Ford was trying to find replacements for 2 of the guys involved in Sit2. He wanted a scorer like Henriquez and Isabell seemed to fill the bill. I agree losing Gordon and Santos hurt, but I'm not sure we would have been calling us an NCAA team with just them. 

[WVBilliken]

3 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I used Thatch as a example to emphasize a more general point.  The A10 is poised to rebound next year because multiple coaches decided to take their lumps and play their freshmen.  We went all in on grad transfers and now we'll return very little scoring next year.  Again, I understand why Coach signed the grad transfers but we have posters that want to continue going the grad transfer route.  If you keep doing that, you'll always have a bunch of young unproven scorers and you'll be tempted to cover up that weakness with yet more grad transfers.

That is not how the successful programs are using grad transfers.  They get one if he's the missing piece to a tournament run, not just to avoid starting a young player.  

We'll have a lot of freshmen on the roster next year.  We're probably not going to be picked to finish in the top half of the conference.  It's not what Coach intended but circumstances beyond his control brought us here.  Once again, we will have the highest rated recruiting class in the league. What better time to include a couple of them in your top 6?

No way SLU's picked in the bottom half of the A10 next year.  Not with Thatch, Goodwin, French returning + Perkins and players to still to be recruited.  And at least a couple of the frosh will be solid contributors.  

[WVBilliken]

2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

3 Star.

Now wait a second.  First, it was you who said we cannot have too many Freshmen next year for class balance and then have only 1 scholarship the next year.   In response to your concern, I suggested  possible GT as a shooting or 2 guard so that we don't simply "save" a scholarship and so that we have at least 2 scholarships for next year (more if 1 or more transfers).  Second, while others have personal watched and are very familiar with out incoming 5 recruits, most of us respect the opinions of you and Roy as to their ability to start/contribute from Day 1 -- and while many have Yuri already set to be our starting PG next year from Day 1, both you and Roy believe he won't start next year.  In fact, you suggested he may not start until his JR year b/c of his perimeter shooting skills.  Third, while most everyone agrees with you basic premise that we should not use short-term fixes of GTs to hinder otherwise good and ready Freshmen.  This year, it does not appear like Jacobs was ready to start and be a major contributor.   Fred was much closer, but again, it is debatable if he was/is ready.    Next year, I still have concerns at our 2 guard.  I don't see Fred every day at practice to know if he can be the 2 from Day 1 next year.  If concerns are still present, maybe Ford uses one of his remaining scholarships on another guard but Yuri appears to be a 1, Jimerson and Hargrove both to be a 3, Perkins either a 3 or 4 and Bell is certainly a 5.  Not sure we have seen enough of Jacobs to know if he can perform next year -- or if we need more help.  Personally, I want shooters -- and assuming Jimerson and Perkins can both shoot it, then we are good at the 3 and 4 -- but what about the 1 and 2?  And if Yuri is not ready to start until his JR as you suggest, then what's wrong with another 1-2 combo guard.

 

Jimerson is listed as a 2.  Perkins from reviews can play as a 2.  You can also play Goodwin as a 2 with Jacobs and Collins being 1's.  Plenty of guard options.  But with that being said, college basketball is a guard's game.  Happy to get another big 2 who can handle the ball with one of the final two scholarships.

[WVBilliken]

2 hours ago, kshoe said:

We currently only have 5 returners next year. 2 juniors and 3 sophomores. Current incomings will make the classes look like 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 4 freshman.

For class balance purposes alone it would make a lot of sense to add 1-2 grad transfers. 

If all frosh, sophomores and juniors someone will not play and will transfer.  There will be open scholarships.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, cheeseman said:

Your point is well taken but how do address the class imbalance?  Do you think it is ok to just assume that there will be transfers so not to be concerned.  Is the constant turnover  just to be expected now?  Can it not hurt future recruiting?  Just asking your opinion.

if somehow all our scholarships available go to incoming freshmen, i find it had to believe that an 8 player freshmen class stays together four years.   someone will be disgruntled as 3 star mentions, over the next year and a half it would likely reshuffle accordingly.  

[billiken_roy]

42 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I do think Ford was trying to find replacements for 2 of the guys involved in Sit2. He wanted a scorer like Henriquez and Isabell seemed to fill the bill. I agree losing Gordon and Santos hurt, but I'm not sure we would have been calling us an NCAA team with just them. 

i personally place my pre-season enthusiasm misplacement all on gordon and santos disappearing.    we had been told santos was a likely starter and we all had seen the chiseled potential gordon was bringing.   we went from one of the deepest and potentially talented frontcourts in america to 2 bigs and bess having to back up the bigs and play nearly 40 minutes a night.   

 

 

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i personally place my pre-season enthusiasm misplacement all on gordon and santos disappearing.    we had been told santos was a likely starter and we all had seen the chiseled potential gordon was bringing.   we went from one of the deepest and potentially talented frontcourts in america to 2 bigs and bess having to back up the bigs and play nearly 40 minutes a night.   

 

 

Agreed. I'd say the loss of them two plus maybe even welmer (I know it was risky to call on him to contribute) are the reason we had the year we did. Our bigs again had to play with some caution due to lack of depth. Also less freethrows for Foreman and French if they get less playing time. 

[ACE]

1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

3 Star.

Now wait a second.  First, it was you who said we cannot have too many Freshmen next year for class balance and then have only 1 scholarship the next year.   In response to your concern, I suggested  possible GT as a shooting or 2 guard so that we don't simply "save" a scholarship and so that we have at least 2 scholarships for next year (more if 1 or more transfers).  Second, while others have personal watched and are very familiar with out incoming 5 recruits, most of us respect the opinions of you and Roy as to their ability to start/contribute from Day 1 -- and while many have Yuri already set to be our starting PG next year from Day 1, both you and Roy believe he won't start next year.  In fact, you suggested he may not start until his JR year b/c of his perimeter shooting skills.  Third, while most everyone agrees with you basic premise that we should not use short-term fixes of GTs to hinder otherwise good and ready Freshmen.  This year, it does not appear like Jacobs was ready to start and be a major contributor.   Fred was much closer, but again, it is debatable if he was/is ready.    Next year, I still have concerns at our 2 guard.  I don't see Fred every day at practice to know if he can be the 2 from Day 1 next year.  If concerns are still present, maybe Ford uses one of his remaining scholarships on another guard but Yuri appears to be a 1, Jimerson and Hargrove both to be a 3, Perkins either a 3 or 4 and Bell is certainly a 5.  Not sure we have seen enough of Jacobs to know if he can perform next year -- or if we need more help.  Personally, I want shooters -- and assuming Jimerson and Perkins can both shoot it, then we are good at the 3 and 4 -- but what about the 1 and 2?  And if Yuri is not ready to start until his JR as you suggest, then what's wrong with another 1-2 combo guard.

 

Put me in the camp that would like to see a 1-2 combo guard. At minimum we have three available scholarships. RM showed us that you can never have too many quality guards. Something resembling a Mike McCall type guard would fit really nicely with what we have. And if that happens to be a GT, I say go for it. Always be trying to upgrade your roster. Playing time should be earned, not given.

Looking at the guard situation, even if Jacobs comes back, I'm not really sure yet what he brings to the table. When I look at Goodwin, Yuri, Thatch and Jimmerson - I still see the need for a player who can both reliably handle the rock and be a reliable threat from 3.

[Old guy]

20 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if somehow all our scholarships available go to incoming freshmen, i find it had to believe that an 8 player freshmen class stays together four years.   someone will be disgruntled as 3 star mentions, over the next year and a half it would likely reshuffle accordingly.  

We may already have experienced the loss of valuable players that were disgruntled and thought their prospects were not great at SLU (Jalen Johnson probably fits this description), there is nothing that can be done to prevent this from happening in the future. So, yes there will be attrition of the player roster in the coming years as there has been attrition in the past.

[Clock_Tower]

39 minutes ago, ACE said:

Put me in the camp that would like to see a 1-2 combo guard. At minimum we have three available scholarships. RM showed us that you can never have too many quality guards. Something resembling a Mike McCall type guard would fit really nicely with what we have. And if that happens to be a GT, I say go for it. Always be trying to upgrade your roster. Playing time should be earned, not given.

Looking at the guard situation, even if Jacobs comes back, I'm not really sure yet what he brings to the table. When I look at Goodwin, Yuri, Thatch and Jimmerson - I still see the need for a player who can both reliably handle the rock and be a reliable threat from 3.

I am rather confident that if Spoonhour somehow became our coach right now, he would use the final 3 scholarships firs to get another PG (he always liked to have 2), another guard (he could never have too many) and the final being given to a big (even if he were only 6'6").

[slu72]

53 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i personally place my pre-season enthusiasm misplacement all on gordon and santos disappearing.    we had been told santos was a likely starter and we all had seen the chiseled potential gordon was bringing.   we went from one of the deepest and potentially talented frontcourts in america to 2 bigs and bess having to back up the bigs and play nearly 40 minutes a night.   

 

 

I don't want to discount the excitement over our pre season front line, I just think Ford looked at scoring from our guards to loosen things up on the inside, i.e. trying to make us an all around team that could nail the opponent from all over the court. Hence, you bring in Isabell and Wiley. 

In the A10 we would have dominated w/ our front line, but when the D's started to pack it in, we would have some guards that would prevent that from happening. With the exception of Johnson we weren't considered a great outside shooting team. So, added scoring from the guard positions really got my blood boiling that if this all came together as planned, we really might be looking at a breakthrough season. Unfortunately, it all unraveled fairly quickly with the loss of Santos and then Gordon. 

 

[cheeseman]

OK, i am confused.  Some on the board have railed against how horrible it is that Ford has had so much turnover.  Now the idea of having imbalanced classes as no big deal and it will take care of itself by people moving on is OK.  Now I understand that in the course of time kids do transfer and I have no real problem with a kid leaving for whatever personal reason but people can not have it both ways.  Ford's player  turnover rate should not be an issue if the way to deal with a class imbalance is to just wait for the numbers to thin naturally.  

[billiken_roy]

Im against a coach running a player off.   If a player initiates leaving thats up to the player.  Their is a huge difference.