Recruiting - 2019

[SLU_Nick]

A lot of sleeping on Jacobs in this thread.  He has the highest ceiling of anyone on the roster imo 

[slu72]

Next year I think it would be harmful to add a GT that would take minutes from our 3 FR or Perkins. We needed the 2 GTs this year because of Sit2, but they likely cost us Jalen Johnson. I wouldn't mind an inside GT big to replace Foreman, but that's about it. Another JUCO big would be preferred, but they're rare these days. A Kenny Brown type would be great. French is going to need help. But if Hargrove adds some muscle he could fill that role. 

[3star_recruit]

Clocktower and slu72,

If two scholarships are used on bigs, what would you do with the other two scholarships? Getting a regular transfer would be a really tough sell. After that player sits out a year our 9 man rotation would already be set. Are you suggesting we bank two scholarships?

[Basketbill]

49 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Ace

Good post.  I was just thinking similar things this morning had started to work on a new topic/thread but like yours right here:

Here's the reason why some are against Grad Transfers

1.   Rasheed Anthony - just not any good.  Luis Santos - bad habits/mind elsewhere/never played/probably never even thinks about SLU

2.   Lost opportunity.  Unlike you and 3 Star, I would rather give playing time to Thatch (high upside) rather than use him as a "6th man"  vs. another 1 year guy. 

Inheriting the Jim Crews roster and then being hit with S2 left Coach Ford with very few options.  To me, Coach is doing great -- better than anticipated.  Yes, you're right, where would we be without Isabell & Wiley?  I am sure thankful for both.  Can I complain that Isabell's initial games were more selfish, not as good as recently and that Goodwin lost out important PG minutes to him?  Can I complain that Wiley missed a large part of games?  Sure, but glad to have them.  And again, Isabell and Wiley turned out alot better than our prior guys.

Next year, though, things won't be so dire.   Getting another guy to take minutes away from Thatch doesn't sound so good to me.  We will lose quality Frosh and Sophs by continually relying upon Grad Transfers.  And Perkins is a JUCO so we will have 3 Juniors in Goodwin, French and Perkins.  We will also have Thatch, Hankton and Jacobs who will need to play -- not delay their growth by sitting behind a Grad Transfer.   Same we our Frosh:  Yuri, Jimmerson and Hargrove.  Teams only really 7 to 8 players to win and 10 to practice - develop.  The bottom 3 will be unhappy and want to look elsewhere no matter what.  I am just concerned that some very talented youth may fall into the bottom 3 and leave -- all because we bring in an average Grad Transfer.

And classes have a way of balancing themselves out.  And if we have an additional spot because of a guy like Wellmer, maybe we consider getting another regular transfer:  Bess, Henriquez, Graves, Foreman, but to, stay away from future Grad Transfers for the most part.

 

Santos was not a grad transfer.  Disappointing that he did not play but he had two years of eligibility left. 

Tranfers do seem to have baggage.  Bess did not, DJ has been sound,  and frankly a benefit to the team though not nearly as good as Bess.   I would take traditional transfer like Bess,  or a grad transfer.

[almaman]

1 hour ago, SLU_Nick said:

A lot of sleeping on Jacobs in this thread.  He has the highest ceiling of anyone on the roster imo 

That would be great

 

<Tranfers do seem to have baggage..>

Like divorcees 

[Clock_Tower]

56 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Clocktower and slu72,

If two scholarships are used on bigs, what would you do with the other two scholarships? Getting a regular transfer would be a really tough sell. After that player sits out a year our 9 man rotation would already be set. Are you suggesting we bank two scholarships?

No. I would not bank 2 scholarships. I would probably use 1 on the best available incoming Freshman player (PG) and bank the final one. Or give 2 more to incoming Frosh. 1 or 2 may see the weiting on the wall and leave (or Ford has a quiet and honest conversation) and class balance ceases from becoming a major problem 

[slu72]

49 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Clocktower and slu72,

If two scholarships are used on bigs, what would you do with the other two scholarships? Getting a regular transfer would be a really tough sell. After that player sits out a year our 9 man rotation would already be set. Are you suggesting we bank two scholarships?

I'm all for competition so no rotation is ever set in stone. As of right now our firm roster next year is made up of:

3 JRs

3 SOs

3 FR

What I'd like to see added: 

GT Big (somebody to provide 10-15 minutes mpg)

JUCO PF or PG

FR PF 

FR Sg 

No reason to bank scholarships. We'll have a departure or 2. 

[CBFan]

2 hours ago, SLU_Nick said:

A lot of sleeping on Jacobs in this thread.  He has the highest ceiling of anyone on the roster imo 

I am glad Jacobs is a Billiken and hopefully will graduate a Billiken.  

Jacobs has had a difficult season I understand the mistakes but his poor shooting is hard to figure out.

I agree he has a high ceiling and look forward to that breakout game.

[Clock_Tower]

4 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Clocktower and slu72,

If two scholarships are used on bigs, what would you do with the other two scholarships? Getting a regular transfer would be a really tough sell. After that player sits out a year our 9 man rotation would already be set. Are you suggesting we bank two scholarships?

3 Star

How about you?  Which guys do you want to sit for 1 to 2 years (and if they quit, so be it) if we sign a GT or another JUCO?  Thatch, Hankton, Jacobs, Hargrove, Yuri? 

Think about it.  What PG wants to come and be the back up to Goodwin for 1 year (Grad Transfer) or 2 years (JUCO)?  And if we do, then that guy and Goodwin get all the minutes and none for Yuri.  And would we be better off with a 21/22 year old back up to Goodwin (as opposed to Yuri) for 1 to 2 years when Yuri takes over in 2 years without that much experience (or is also gone by then)? 

Same questions directed at the 4 and French? 

And would you rather bring in a 22 year old to take time away from Hargrave who gets pissed and leaves? 

Next year, I can see Goodwin (PG) French (4) and Perkins (3).  After that, I can see Thatch, Jimerson and Jacobs fighting for time at the 2 and/or 3.  Normally, I am not a fan of banking scholarships, but with no Seniors next year, with such a deep bench and high level recruits, I wouldn't mind banking both if Perkins and the new Frosh are as good as advertised.  If not, or if unsure as the new guys, then getting another Freshman and seeing who steps up would be a good way to go. 

I am all for competition, but bringing may cause more long term damage than its worth. Sorry, not interested in experienced baggage.

[BIG BILL FAN]

11 hours ago, slu72 said:

Next year I think it would be harmful to add a GT that would take minutes from our 3 FR or Perkins. We needed the 2 GTs this year because of Sit2, but they likely cost us Jalen Johnson. I wouldn't mind an inside GT big to replace Foreman, but that's about it. Another JUCO big would be preferred, but they're rare these days. A Kenny Brown type would be great. French is going to need help. But if Hargrove adds some muscle he could fill that role. 

What would be more harmful is to have an injury or two, or someone leave, and now you are short once again. The obvious plan should be to bring in 1 or 2 GT's, the heck with everyone's feelings. It's called competition, and every good team is going to have it.

[slufanskip]

11 hours ago, almaman said:

That would be great

 

<Tranfers do seem to have baggage..>

Like divorcees 

Divorcee's are hot to trot

Trivia question. What sitcom was that statement made on and who said it. Hint you probably need to be 50+ or like old sitcom reruns to know

[3star_recruit]

7 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

3 Star

How about you?  Which guys do you want to sit for 1 to 2 years (and if they quit, so be it) if we sign a GT or another JUCO?  Thatch, Hankton, Jacobs, Hargrove, Yuri? 

Think about it.  What PG wants to come and be the back up to Goodwin for 1 year (Grad Transfer) or 2 years (JUCO)?  And if we do, then that guy and Goodwin get all the minutes and none for Yuri.  And would we be better off with a 21/22 year old back up to Goodwin (as opposed to Yuri) for 1 to 2 years when Yuri takes over in 2 years without that much experience (or is also gone by then)? 

Same questions directed at the 4 and French? 

And would you rather bring in a 22 year old to take time away from Hargrave who gets pissed and leaves? 

Next year, I can see Goodwin (PG) French (4) and Perkins (3).  After that, I can see Thatch, Jimerson and Jacobs fighting for time at the 2 and/or 3.  Normally, I am not a fan of banking scholarships, but with no Seniors next year, with such a deep bench and high level recruits, I wouldn't mind banking both if Perkins and the new Frosh are as good as advertised.  If not, or if unsure as the new guys, then getting another Freshman and seeing who steps up would be a good way to go. 

I am all for competition, but bringing may cause more long term damage than its worth. Sorry, not interested in experienced baggage.

The reason I'm advocating for a grad transfer at shooting guard is as an insurance measure.  Our leading scorer at that position will be Fred, who is currently averaging 4.4ppg.  Jacobs is averaging a donut.  Jimerson is lighting it up at prep school but he'll be a freshman.  

Now part of the reason Jacobs isn't scoring is because Ford is asking him to play out of position as a backup point guard.  So he isn't really in the mix for the shooting guard position.  His primary competition will be Yuri.   If Jacobs chooses to move on, it's because he can't beat out a guy who is a better suited for the position.  The chips are already stacked against Jacobs.

I think if Dion Wiley had an additional year of eligibility, Fred would beat him out for the starting spot next year.  But what if Fred gets banged up and is out for a few games?  All we would have is an unproven freshman in Jimerson.  There are players a lot better than Jimerson who have struggled to adjust to the speed of the college game.  Why bank a scholarship when you can just bring in a Dion Wiley off the bench?  If a freshman or sophomore is going to transfer because he has to compete for a spot, I don't know what to tell him.  Practically every top 50 program has a tougher competition at the two-guard spot than he'll face here.

This has been an interesting debate but if Coach Ford follows through on his radio comments with Rammer last night, then it's a debate I've already lost.  His preference is to recruit high school players now that he's built the program up.  The competition in that scenario would be between Fred and two freshmen.

[RiseAndGrind]

1 minute ago, 3star_recruit said:

The reason I'm advocating for a grad transfer at shooting guard is as an insurance measure.  Our leading scorer at that position will be Fred, who is currently averaging 4.4ppg.  Jacobs is averaging a donut.  Jimerson is lighting it up at prep school but he'll be a freshman.  

Now part of the reason Jacobs isn't scoring is because Ford is asking him to play out of position as a backup point guard.  So he isn't really in the mix for the shooting guard position.  His primary competition will be Yuri.   If Jacobs chooses to move on, it's because he can't beat out a guy who is a better suited for the position.  The chips are already stacked against Jacobs.

I think if Dion Wiley had an additional year of eligibility, Fred would beat him out for the starting spot next year.  But what if Fred gets banged up and is out for a few games?  All we would have is an unproven freshman in Jimerson.  There are players a lot better than Jimerson who have struggled to adjust to the speed of the college game.  Why bank a scholarship when you can just bring in a Dion Wiley off the bench?  If a freshman or sophomore is going to transfer because he has to compete for a spot, I don't know what to tell him.  Practically every top 50 program has a tougher competition at the two-guard spot than he'll face here.

I want as many good players as possible - worry about playing time and developing the younger guys later. We have seen what type of attrition happens before and during a season. ’ll buff out. 

[Cincybill]

Coaches try to win every year. You don't bank scholarships for long term development that may never come. The kid might even transfer before we get to reap the benefits. Get the best players to make the best team each year. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be grad transfers though. It can be anyone that helps the team win now. This year should make it that much more obvious to why you don't bank scholarships.

 

If you sacrifice a year to develop long term prospects you might not win games and then lose recruiting momentum.

[Pistol]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:08 AM, Compton said:

French hasn't met expectations? 

Look at the date of my post. Things change.

[HoosierPal]

38 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

I want as many good players as possible - worry about playing time and developing the younger guys later. We have seen what type of attrition happens before and during a season. ’ll buff out. 

Bingo.  Who knows if we will lose any more players at the end of this year, or half way through next season.  Let's just get the best group we can and let the chips fall where they will.  If we over-recruit and Goodwin has to sit - wow we would be good!  If French sits - look out NCAA. 

[billikenbill]

1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

Divorcee's are hot to trot

Trivia question. What sitcom was that statement made on and who said it. Hint you probably need to be 50+ or like old sitcom reruns to know

Happy Days, Ralph Malph?

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, 3star_recruit said:

The reason I'm advocating for a grad transfer at shooting guard is as an insurance measure.  Our leading scorer at that position will be Fred, who is currently averaging 4.4ppg.  Jacobs is averaging a donut.  Jimerson is lighting it up at prep school but he'll be a freshman.  

Now part of the reason Jacobs isn't scoring is because Ford is asking him to play out of position as a backup point guard.  So he isn't really in the mix for the shooting guard position.  His primary competition will be Yuri.   If Jacobs chooses to move on, it's because he can't beat out a guy who is a better suited for the position.  The chips are already stacked against Jacobs.

I think if Dion Wiley had an additional year of eligibility, Fred would beat him out for the starting spot next year.  But what if Fred gets banged up and is out for a few games?  All we would have is an unproven freshman in Jimerson.  There are players a lot better than Jimerson who have struggled to adjust to the speed of the college game.  Why bank a scholarship when you can just bring in a Dion Wiley off the bench?  If a freshman or sophomore is going to transfer because he has to compete for a spot, I don't know what to tell him.  Practically every top 50 program has a tougher competition at the two-guard spot than he'll face here.

This has been an interesting debate but if Coach Ford follows through on his radio comments with Rammer last night, then it's a debate I've already lost.  His preference is to recruit high school players now that he's built the program up.  The competition in that scenario would be between Fred and two freshmen.

We dont need an insurance policyat the 2 position if we are solid at the 1, 3 and 4 and then have 3 guys with long term upside (2 w a year under their belts) ready to step up. We are not likely to get GT quality under this scenario like we did w Wiley and we r likely to hurt chemistry and the team we r building long term. I am all for bringing in Freshmen who will make our starters sit, that’s competition. But repeatedly bringing in GT’s will hurt our recruiting of Freshmen and make us worse in the longterm.  

[SLU_Lax]

23 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

We dont need an insurance policyat the 2 position if we are solid at the 1, 3 and 4 and then have 3 guys with long term upside (2 w a year under their belts) ready to step up. We are not likely to get GT quality under this scenario like we did w Wiley and we r likely to hurt chemistry and the team we r building long term. I am all for bringing in Freshmen who will make our starters sit, that’s competition. But repeatedly bringing in GT’s will hurt our recruiting of Freshmen and make us worse in the longterm.  

I will still very gladly take another Anthony.....Great team guy.....Great practice guy.....Great emergency depth.  I would take whatever version of him exists as the off-ball guard too.  It could be a backup guard from another P5 school or a solid, but unspectacular starter from a weaker team.

[Billiken Rich]

2 minutes ago, SLU_Lax said:

I will still very gladly take another Anthony.....Great team guy.....Great practice guy.....Great emergency depth.  I would take whatever version of him exists as the off-ball guard too.  It could be a backup guard from another P5 school or a solid, but unspectacular starter from a weaker team.

I would love to have Anthony next year for one year to replace Foreman backup French and KC and Hargrove and whoever else we get as forwards 

[Taj79]

As I look at next years' roster, and only count what I know, I still see huge issues in the 'skills' department.  Foreman, Bess, Wiley, Welmer and Isabell will all be gone.  Jordan Goodwin will still be mainly a slasher with what we can hope is a developing mid-range jumper.  Hasahn French will be a beast down low and a hook shot from five-feet in.  KC Hankton will be all potential.  Fred Thatch is all defense and hustle.  And Jacobs is completely unknown,  (by the way, Ingvi is no longer on the roster page at SLUBillikens.com).  That's five guys, fellas. 

Meanwhile, in the recruiting ranks, Javonte Perkins is supposedly a shooter, as is Gibson Jimerson.  So was Drew Deiner, Christian Salescich, Jake Barnett, Reggie Bryant, Ramon Trice and many others.   Of that list, only Bryant live dup to his billing.  And we all joke .. SLU is where jump shots come to die.   That's a lot of pressure placed on those two guys is all I'm saying.  The we have a point guard who doesn't shoot much but involves his teammates in Collins.  Much like the movie and its tagline "Who You Gonna Call? if there are no finishers to pass to who you gonna involve?   Maybe, maybe we have a freak athlete in Terrance Hargrove but his discussion of being a shooter rarely comes up.  That's nine guys.  With a lot of holes.  That's an entire bench with zero collegiate experience and three returnees who have started (right now I think) a total of one game in their lives. 

We need skill and bodies and help all over the place.  The only team in the league suffering more than us in this upcoming offseason is likely the Bonnies losing Stockard and Griffin and Mason losing their senior backcourt of Livingstone and Grayer.    Next year might be Ford's biggest coaching challenge since he got here.  Sure, he had to navigate the [dead] waters but that's all over.  This is all him now. 

We need another frontliner desperately because as it stands now, our rotation is French, Hankton and maybe Hargrove on that frontline.  And French is the only true "big" big man down there.  And you can't go with a Rashed Anthony and his one to five minutes per game.  We will need more.

[billiken_roy]

7 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

As I look at next years' roster, and only count what I know, I still see huge issues in the 'skills' department.  Foreman, Bess, Wiley, Welmer and Isabell will all be gone.  Jordan Goodwin will still be mainly a slasher with what we can hope is a developing mid-range jumper.  Hasahn French will be a beast down low and a hook shot from five-feet in.  KC Hankton will be all potential.  Fred Thatch is all defense and hustle.  And Jacobs is completely unknown,  (by the way, Ingvi is no longer on the roster page at SLUBillikens.com).  That's five guys, fellas. 

Meanwhile, in the recruiting ranks, Javonte Perkins is supposedly a shooter, as is Gibson Jimerson.  So was Drew Deiner, Christian Salescich, Jake Barnett, Reggie Bryant, Ramon Trice and many others.   Of that list, only Bryant live dup to his billing.  And we all joke .. SLU is where jump shots come to die.   That's a lot of pressure placed on those two guys is all I'm saying.  The we have a point guard who doesn't shoot much but involves his teammates in Collins.  Much like the movie and its tagline "Who You Gonna Call? if there are no finishers to pass to who you gonna involve?   Maybe, maybe we have a freak athlete in Terrance Hargrove but his discussion of being a shooter rarely comes up.  That's nine guys.  With a lot of holes.  That's an entire bench with zero collegiate experience and three returnees who have started (right now I think) a total of one game in their lives. 

We need skill and bodies and help all over the place.  The only team in the league suffering more than us in this upcoming offseason is likely the Bonnies losing Stockard and Griffin and Mason losing their senior backcourt of Livingstone and Grayer.    Next year might be Ford's biggest coaching challenge since he got here.  Sure, he had to navigate the [dead] waters but that's all over.  This is all him now. 

We need another frontliner desperately because as it stands now, our rotation is French, Hankton and maybe Hargrove on that frontline.  And French is the only true "big" big man down there.  And you can't go with a Rashed Anthony and his one to five minutes per game.  We will need more.

i am rooting for jimmerson to be the surprise starter of the freshman class.  and i could live with both hargrove and perkins emerging as starters.   ive been watching hargrove for a few years now and he is going to be a nice player.   while i think he and perkins are very similar players, i think the combination would lessen the blow of not having a second true inside guy with both of them being so athletic and scorers where they are now.  

we need so new folk to step up and become major players next year or we will take a step back.   the existing roster minus the seniors will not be a better team than what this one is currently

[3star_recruit]

11 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i am rooting for jimmerson to be the surprise starter of the freshman class.  and i could live with both hargrove and perkins emerging as starters.   

There's a reason that's it so rare for mid-majors to be really good with a freshman in the backcourt.  We don't normally get the kind of transcendent player you need to pull that off.  Kellan Grady was a blue-chipper and that kind of freshman for Davidson last year.  I don't see that kind of freshman coming in next year. 

[WVBilliken]

13 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

No. I would not bank 2 scholarships. I would probably use 1 on the best available incoming Freshman player (PG) and bank the final one. Or give 2 more to incoming Frosh. 1 or 2 may see the weiting on the wall and leave (or Ford has a quiet and honest conversation) and class balance ceases from becoming a major problem 

Never bank a scholarship assuming Ford can bring in a player that can contribute.  Sure, I want a scholarship or two available for the next class, but given transfer rates, expect one to free up.  I vote for a grad transfer or two even if those players are role players.

[billiken_roy]

16 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

There's a reason that's it so rare for mid-majors to be really good with a freshman in the backcourt.  We don't normally get the kind of transcendent player you need to pull that off.  Kellan Grady was a blue-chipper and that kind of freshman for Davidson last year.  I don't see that kind of freshman coming in next year. 

while i am very pleased with thatch's defensive performance and his visible confidence on the floor, i am also mildly disappointed with his very uneven offensive performance.   i dont think we need to talk about jacobs performance thus far.   and while hankton has shown to have a nice shot, beyond that...... anyway, thus i see an opportunity we will see 2-3 starters coming from outside this current roster.   heck for all we know, that could mean someone we dont even lay claim to yet.   

the good news is with a core of french and goodwin, we have a nice foundation to build on.   and honestly, if you are correct and our starters do all come from our existing roster, we wont be terrible by any means.   summer means a good opportunity for all concerned to accept responsibility and build their shortcomings into strengths.