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Chris Mack to Wake Forest?


slufan13

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"Big East or bust." But in all seriousness, the A10 was the best it has ever been imo. No game was an easy, guaranteed win. I honestly think, however, that this year was a peak for this conference. Heck even old rat face Coach K was worried we would get more teams in than his conference. Will the A10 continue to produce such quality teams in the future? Possible but highly unlikely. Davidson? George Mason? The Billikens are on the rise and I believe that if we pass on this opportunity to join the BE (if an offer is even extended) we may be kicking ourselves for years to come. Plus the commute to BE schools in the Midwest region would benefit the players. Maybe we could even build a sustaining rivalry or two. Take this for what it's worth.

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I'm not sold on that idea that the Big East will definitely be the better conference but I do probably think it's the better conference for us. Closer schools. Schools more like us. The Big East probably has a higher ceiling than the A10 too although it might not be able to reach that due to the TV deal.

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Is anyone suggesting that the A10 has a superior TV package than the NBE?? I don't think so. Instead, it just sounds like the Fox contract for the NBE is not as good as the Beast's ESPN contract.

-I'm not suggesting that at all, but if the ratings are not good for the next 9 seasons what do you expect Fox to do at renewal? I'm not sure they continue to hitch their future, or part of it, to the NBE's star.

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-I'm not suggesting that at all, but if the ratings are not good for the next 9 seasons what do you expect Fox to do at renewal? I'm not sure they continue to hitch their future, or part of it, to the NBE's star.

The problem is, there's not a whole lot else out there. If Fox is serious about its FS1, and about providing live sports inventory, then the Big East is about the best thing going for them in terms of college basketball. The alternative is getting into a bidding war (likely with ESPN) for power conference programming, which seems like an unprofitable venture. They might reduce the value of the next contract, but the Big East seems likely to always have a place with Fox (or some other major network), and that place - by virtue of the marketability of Big East teams relative to the A10 - is probably always going to be more valuable than any TV deal the A10 pulls.

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Why would Chris Mack go to a worse situation at Wake Forest than he has at Xavier?

Because the program's budget is 21% bigger, because they play in the ACC, because anyone coaching at his level of DI basketball should feel they have the power to turn a program like Wake Forest into a powerful program.

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The problem is, there's not a whole lot else out there. If Fox is serious about its FS1, and about providing live sports inventory, then the Big East is about the best thing going for them in terms of college basketball. The alternative is getting into a bidding war (likely with ESPN) for power conference programming, which seems like an unprofitable venture. They might reduce the value of the next contract, but the Big East seems likely to always have a place with Fox (or some other major network), and that place - by virtue of the marketability of Big East teams relative to the A10 - is probably always going to be more valuable than any TV deal the A10 pulls.

Sludevil, I disagree with your insights about Fox's motivation and direction in dealing with its FS1 division and the Big East. However much I may acknowledge there is some valid reasoning behind what you say, I do not think you grasp the reasons controlling corporate motivation and direction. After many years of experience at corporate level, I can affirm to you that the motives that define corporate directives may not be reasoning or even profit. There are powerful internal motivations that may be expressed more in terms company inter departmental rivalry than reason. These are the motivations which oftentimes define what the corporation actually winds up doing. I truly have no idea what Fox's internal workings are but you must keep in mind that Fox is a company in flux, having been split out of the print media section on News Media recently. Intense rivalry and competition for internal power tends to be a major behavioral norm in situations such as that, not reason. Fox will do whatever it does for its own internal reasons, whether they are rational or not. It is very hard to predict the future of FS1 and of Fox's relationship with the Big East at this time, particularly given the lackluster showing of Big East this year, without having an insider's knowledge of what is going on internally at Fox at this time. I do not have this knowledge, and I assume neither do you.

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-I'm not suggesting that at all, but if the ratings are not good for the next 9 seasons what do you expect Fox to do at renewal? I'm not sure they continue to hitch their future, or part of it, to the NBE's star.

10 years (9 more years) is a very long time in terms of conference affiliations. Frankly, I would not be surprised if the next 9 years results in changes equal to what we experienced these past 9 years. Are we sure the NBE will still be around in 9 years?

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Sludevil, I disagree with your insights about Fox's motivation and direction in dealing with its FS1 division and the Big East. However much I may acknowledge there is some valid reasoning behind what you say, I do not think you grasp the reasons controlling corporate motivation and direction. After many years of experience at corporate level, I can affirm to you that the motives that define corporate directives may not be reasoning or even profit. There are powerful internal motivations that may be expressed more in terms company inter departmental rivalry than reason. These are the motivations which oftentimes define what the corporation actually winds up doing. I truly have no idea what Fox's internal workings are but you must keep in mind that Fox is a company in flux, having been split out of the print media section on News Media recently. Intense rivalry and competition for internal power tends to be a major behavioral norm in situations such as that, not reason. Fox will do whatever it does for its own internal reasons, whether they are rational or not. It is very hard to predict the future of FS1 and of Fox's relationship with the Big East at this time, particularly given the lackluster showing of Big East this year, without having an insider's knowledge of what is going on internally at Fox at this time. I do not have this knowledge, and I assume neither do you.

No, I don't, and that's a fair point. Fox may act irrationally in future Big East negotiations. My overriding point, though - and I don't think it's a controversial one - is that the Big East is and is foreseeably going to remain a more valuable property than the A10. That their isn't much else out there in terms of college basketball inventory, and that live sports are projected to continue increasing in value (relative to other TV programming) simply means the Big East is likely to find a suitable home, whether at Fox or elsewhere. So if SLU has an opportunity to jump to the Big East - even with its ratings troubles - SLU should make the jump and never look back.

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No, I don't, and that's a fair point. Fox may act irrationally in future Big East negotiations. My overriding point, though - and I don't think it's a controversial one - is that the Big East is and is foreseeably going to remain a more valuable property than the A10. That their isn't much else out there in terms of college basketball inventory, and that live sports are projected to continue increasing in value (relative to other TV programming) simply means the Big East is likely to find a suitable home, whether at Fox or elsewhere. So if SLU has an opportunity to jump to the Big East - even with its ratings troubles - SLU should make the jump and never look back.

Yes, I agree. The NBE is where SLU should land. At the same time, let's be honest, the addition of SLU and either UD/Richmond is not going to dramatically increase ratings - especially next year. Both would be solid additions (the #21 STL TV market) but neither will be the face of the league -- neither are a national "name" school or have a "name" coach. Makes me wonder if Fox might be thinking about the need to make a bigger splash -- go to 16 teams and include West Coast schools like Gonzaga, etc. What's the name of the Catholic school from California -- St. Mary's?

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Yes, I agree. The NBE is where SLU should land. At the same time, let's be honest, the addition of SLU and either UD/Richmond is not going to dramatically increase ratings - especially next year. Both would be solid additions (the #21 STL TV market) but neither will be the face of the league -- neither are a national "name" school or have a "name" coach. Makes me wonder if Fox might be thinking about the need to make a bigger splash -- go to 16 teams and include West Coast schools like Gonzaga, etc. What's the name of the Catholic school from California -- St. Mary's?

Yeah, SLU and any other A10 team would basically just pad the middle of the Big East. Gonzaga would certainly be a big addition, but I think travel (unless they joined as a basketball-only member?) would be cost-prohibitive. In any case, Fox would need to significantly up the payout per school to justify adding West Coast teams. And I'm not sure those West Coast schools bring in enough new revenue to justify such a payout boost.

Honestly, I don't see a clear "best case" scenario where the Big East might be able to add a top-end/high value team. Even if the power conferences jump to 16 and one of the power conferences is torn apart in the process, the remnants of that power conference seem more likely to join together with other cast-offs (e.g. UConn) in a football-playing league than to seriously consider joining the Big East. Football is just too much of a cash cow right now; better to keep playing football in a subpar conference (see the AAC) than to consider a basketball-only conference.

Fortunately, that means that, if the Big East chooses to expand, SLU seems like the obvious, clear-cut, can't-miss frontrunner.

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I always thought the Big East would have to go to 18 teams with a western division to expand its footprint. The one thing that really hurts the Big East is the smaller alumni bases across the country. That creates a challenge when it comes to getting people across the country to care about you. One way to counter that fact is to add more teams across a larger area.

Going to an east/midwest/west division is a way to reduce travel cost for all sports and to still increase your foot print.

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One considerstion we may be overlooking, but the admin isn't, is the cost of a move to the Beast. As I understand it here are some of the variables:

1. sacrifice our share of A10 NCAA revenues for the last 6 years. Any estimates on how much?

2. A10 buyout cost. Is it a mil or 2 mil?

3. Our share of Fox TV contract. Rumor had it new members wouldn't be receiving equal dollars to original members.

4. Do we share in any existing NCAA funds currently in their treasury?

Sure there are many other factors but these should be the major financial considerations. Depending on the net dollar effect of the above could make a potential move very expensive.

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I'm not sure what the A-10s current tv contract is, but if ever there was a time for the league to strengthen its presence on ESPN, it would be now. Coming off a season with 6 bids, the league can rightfully claim that they are the top non-BCS basketball league. Big Monday is probably not possible, but it would be nice to have a designated night of the week for league games - perhaps Thursday and then additional games on the weekend. I would think it could appeal to ESPN as a way to prop up the A-10 and battle the NBE/Fox to see which league can become the best non BCS league. Maybe ESPN can help the A-10 grow to greater heights like they did for the BE back in the day.

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I'm not sure what the A-10s current tv contract is, but if ever there was a time for the league to strengthen its presence on ESPN, it would be now. Coming off a season with 6 bids, the league can rightfully claim that they are the top non-BCS basketball league. Big Monday is probably not possible, but it would be nice to have a designated night of the week for league games - perhaps Thursday and then additional games on the weekend. I would think it could appeal to ESPN as a way to prop up the A-10 and battle the NBE/Fox to see which league can become the best non BCS league. Maybe ESPN can help the A-10 grow to greater heights like they did for the BE back in the day.

It isn't going to happen. ESPN has too many commitments between the NBA and other conferences it has really big business partnerships with. You might be able to get something going on the U, but the mothership and 2 are loaded already. Even the U seems to be overrun with commitments to the SEC, ACC, Big 12, and the AAC.

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It isn't going to happen. ESPN has too many commitments between the NBA and other conferences it has really big business partnerships with. You might be able to get something going on the U, but the mothership and 2 are loaded already. Even the U seems to be overrun with commitments to the SEC, ACC, Big 12, and the AAC.

What filled the air time for the old Big East slots? I don't think getting one weeknight game for the league is a crazy goal. In fact, I could have sworn at one time, there was a designated spot on Thursday nights at 6 pm. Of course Xavier used to be on that a lot and I think our game against St. Joe's back when Danny Brown had that sick dunk was on during that time.

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What filled the air time for the old Big East slots? I don't think getting one weeknight game for the league is a crazy goal. In fact, I could have sworn at one time, there was a designated spot on Thursday nights at 6 pm. Of course Xavier used to be on that a lot and I think our game against St. Joe's back when Danny Brown had that sick dunk was on during that time.

The AAC, ACC, and more SEC games as part of the deal to create the SEC Network,

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A-10 just finished the 2nd year of an 8 year deal with ESPN, CBS and NBC Sports Network that was signed prior to the 2012-13 season.

I feel as though those ESPN spots alone are WAY more valuable than a crappy Fox sports 1 spot. Let's face it, the new fox sports situation is a television disaster.

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Yeah, SLU and any other A10 team would basically just pad the middle of the Big East. Gonzaga would certainly be a big addition, but I think travel (unless they joined as a basketball-only member?) would be cost-prohibitive. In any case, Fox would need to significantly up the payout per school to justify adding West Coast teams. And I'm not sure those West Coast schools bring in enough new revenue to justify such a payout boost.

Honestly, I don't see a clear "best case" scenario where the Big East might be able to add a top-end/high value team. Even if the power conferences jump to 16 and one of the power conferences is torn apart in the process, the remnants of that power conference seem more likely to join together with other cast-offs (e.g. UConn) in a football-playing league than to seriously consider joining the Big East. Football is just too much of a cash cow right now; better to keep playing football in a subpar conference (see the AAC) than to consider a basketball-only conference.

Fortunately, that means that, if the Big East chooses to expand, SLU seems like the obvious, clear-cut, can't-miss frontrunner.

Not necessarily true about padding the middle of the NBE. This year, Marquette and GTowne were not top schools while the new school from the Valley (Creighton) was, in fact, a top school. IMO, X will never fall to the bottom of the NBE but I am just not a big Chris Mack fan and therefore not sure he can make X a top school in the NBE each year. Things change and I don't expect Creighton to be this good in the near future just like I think GTown will turn things around climb back to the top.

Instead, though, my comment was about ratings -- not actual performance on the court. Frankly, I believe the non-football schools need to think outside the box and come up with their own strategy. For years, all conferences seemed to be 8 to 10 schools with a true OOC schedule of home and away games against real competition and not just showcases/tournaments followed with buy games at home. Then, when football was given the ability to have conference championship game (1 extra game without the competition of other football games on Saturday -- after the football season but long before the bowl games), conferences went to 12 almost overnight and now they are creeping toward 16 schools. In short, this is the football model. The non-football schools need to formulate their own model. Possibly, that includes a 16 to 24 team conference stretching from the Pacific to the Atlantic with and West and East Division. Possibly, the non-revenue sports teams only play to their games/matches (or the bulk of them) against the 7 to 11 other teams in their division to cut down on travel and to foster more local rivalry. Possibly, 3 or 4 divisions are created to cluster the California/West Coast schools together, the Midwest schools and the Eastern schools. If too many Eastern schools, there could be a Northeast and North central. Conference games could expand to reduce even further the OOC which has largely become buy games b/c the football/BCS schools refuse to play anything but games at their home and on their terms. Adding games each year against St. Mary's, Loyola Marymount, Gonzaga, etc. is really who we are trying to schedule anyway. Currently, the A10 has 13/14 teams, the NBE has 10 teams and most of these could be included together with the West Coast schools. With 24 teams meeting at the end of the year, the conference tournament would be much more exciting. Just my thoughts.

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If I recall correctly, the last time someone provided the value of our tournament earnings, etc... that are due to us from A10, they came to $6 M payable over 5 years. This was at the end of this year's regular season. I do not recall who it was that provided the number of $6 M, but the additional earnings due to us for playing 2 games in this year's NCAA tournament amount to $3 M ($1.5 M per game played) and then there is whatever fee we get for playing one game in the A10 tournament, payable over 6 years. These unrealized earnings added to whatever it costs us to quit our A10 membership represent a fair amount of money.

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Looks like Danny Manning to Wake after striking out on Shaka, Marshall, Howland, Mack, Amaker, Archie, and others.

WF fans have a very inflated opinion of the value of their program. Shaka turned down $3+ mil a year. The whining and recriminations have already begun, even before it's official. Hopefully, it will go better than it did under Jeff [name redacted.]

Edit to add that he'll visit WF today and decide in 24 hours. Apparently, Tulsa has made a strong push to keep him.

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