GDT: Does this game count?

[SShoe]

I'm curious why it "does more harm than good for the players" essentially all of these cream puff opponent non-conference game are just glorified practices. Crews coaches them differently and uses different lineups than he would use against good opponents, so he can get a feel for who does what best in a game situation. I don't see how giving the players a low pressure in-game learning experience is doing any harm.

As far as the worthless from a fan's perspective. No one has given me a good answer as to why this game is different than any other cream puff game except that Rockhurst is D-II. I bet most people don't even know some schools that are D-I or D-II, so I don't see why that matters. A cream puff is a cream puff whether you call the cream puff D-I or D-II. I go to the games to watch SLU. Most of the time I don't care about the opponent.

Here is a little exercise. Guess which of these schools are D-I and which are D-II without cheating:

1. Mercy College

2. Cal State University, Sacramento

3. Cal State University, San Bernardino

4. Virginia State University

5. University of Hartford

6. University of West Alabama

7. University of Tampa

8. Marist College

9. Northwestern State Universty

10. Northeastern State University

Because it's a D-2 opponent, the game doesn't count against your computer rankings. And if somehow you lose, its just an humiliating loss. Games like this are fine in early November when we're excited to see how the players look (old and new), but by this point we fans generally know what we've got. I also don't know what to take from a player's performance against teams like this. If Mike Crawford gets some minutes and performs well, does that mean he can do the same against VCU or Dayton?

Playing teams of poor quality can often lead to bad habits, as what works against them may not work against a quality D-1 opponent. Again, I don't have an issue with this game at the very beginning of the season when Crews is trying out different lineups, etc., but we're roughly 1/3 through the season and the game is sandwiched between the biggest non-conference game of the year and a tough road game. The experimentation period should be finished.

[Westy03]

All I know is that I had to go by myself because when I asked my friends I got laughed at when I said we were playing Rockhurst.

[White Pelican]

I stayed for the whole game although I considered leaving at halftime. As I watched the first half (especially when it was something like 19-2) I was thinking that if this were the first exhibition game and I'd waited all summer for some basketball, I'd be thrilled to see the team. But after playing several games, especially against a couple of tough teams, I'd have rather the team had some rest.

And as a fan, it was hard to get excited about this game. I guess the problem for me is, if they played it the first week of November, it would have been an exhibition. But since it's in December, it counts. It's the same DII team (and one we should clobber) that we seem to keep playing almost every year. I wish we'd find another team if we need a game.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Because it's a D-2 opponent, the game doesn't count against your computer rankings. And if somehow you lose, its just an humiliating loss. Games like this are fine in early November when we're excited to see how the players look (old and new), but by this point we fans generally know what we've got. I also don't know what to take from a player's performance against teams like this. If Mike Crawford gets some minutes and performs well, does that mean he can do the same against VCU or Dayton?

Playing teams of poor quality can often lead to bad habits, as what works against them may not work against a quality D-1 opponent. Again, I don't have an issue with this game at the very beginning of the season when Crews is trying out different lineups, etc., but we're roughly 1/3 through the season and the game is sandwiched between the biggest non-conference game of the year and a tough road game. The experimentation period should be finished.

Not really. The Bills took off three games into the conference season when Crews inserted Glaze into the starting lineup. That's "experimentation."

[RUBillsFan]

Because it's a D-2 opponent, the game doesn't count against your computer rankings. And if somehow you lose, its just an humiliating loss. Games like this are fine in early November when we're excited to see how the players look (old and new), but by this point we fans generally know what we've got. I also don't know what to take from a player's performance against teams like this. If Mike Crawford gets some minutes and performs well, does that mean he can do the same against VCU or Dayton?

Playing teams of poor quality can often lead to bad habits, as what works against them may not work against a quality D-1 opponent. Again, I don't have an issue with this game at the very beginning of the season when Crews is trying out different lineups, etc., but we're roughly 1/3 through the season and the game is sandwiched between the biggest non-conference game of the year and a tough road game. The experimentation period should be finished.

I guess I'm alone, but the fact that Rockhurst is D-II or the game doesn't count for RPI purposes doesn't mean anything to me. Rockhurst, Bowling Green, Wofford, Illinois Springfield, etc. - none of these teams move the needle at all for me. I just go to the games to watch basketball and watch SLU. Losing to Wofford would be just as embarassing as losing to Rockhurst. It would actually be worse because it counts for the RPI.

If it was such a concern about pickup up bad habits by playing bad teams, then schools would not play the exhibition games against DII or DII opponents and schools would not schedule a bunch of non-conference cream puffs. However, they do. It is up to the coach to make sure players aren't picking up bad habits in any game. In a game like this if say McCall doesn't run the offense and instead just chucks up a quick shot, you yank his @ss so fast his head spins because you don't need your best players in the game in order to win.

[JMM28]

Rockhurst game needs to be an exhibition or gone.

Was it this year or a previous year that this game was a last minute replacement for some other game?

[White Pelican]

Rockhurst game needs to be an exhibition or gone.

Was it this year or a previous year that this game was a last minute replacement for some other game?

I think that might have been Illinois-Springfield. I seem to recall that it wasn't exactly last minute, but they did fill in a date that someone canceled on.

[NextYearBill]

Missouri State cancellation?

[White Pelican]

Missouri State cancellation?

Now that you mention it, that is likely who it was.

[Pistol]

SLU is 42 in the RPI, regardless of this game. Much better than 122.

[bonwich]

I'm wondering if the ongoing Rockhurst rivalry somehow traces back to Biondi and the Rockhurst prez. I also wonder if it had anything to do with the Jesuit Birthday Bash at last night's game.

That said, we were told that we just needed an on-campus arena and we'd have much more flexibility, so we'd have a better schedule.

Then we were told that we just needed a Dance appearance to cement our credentials and we'd start to have a much better schedule.

Now we've gone two rounds (I don't count the NCAA's bogus "first round") into the Dance -- which, arguably, makes us one of the top 20 or so teams in the country over the past two years -- and we still have to settle for a D-2 team not only in the middle of our OOC schedule, but also scheduled as part of two games in three days. What's wrong with this picture, when is it OK to start to demand some accountability, and who should be held accountable? (Or will the next excuse be the past few years of Biondi's relative indifference?)

And on an unrelated tangent, where's Dr. C. been? I don't think he's been to at least the past three home games. He's probably our best cheerleader.

[moytoy12]

I was surprised to not see Dr. C at the WSU game.

[DirtyRican]

All I know is that I had to go by myself because when I asked my friends I got laughed at when I said we were playing Rockhurst.

at least you got to eat a pretzel.

[DirtyRican]

I was surprised to not see Dr. C at the WSU game.

This is why we lost actually. His muscle would have intimidated WSU and the refs. That little man is scary.

[ACE]

I'm wondering if the ongoing Rockhurst rivalry somehow traces back to Biondi and the Rockhurst prez. I also wonder if it had anything to do with the Jesuit Birthday Bash at last night's game.

That said, we were told that we just needed an on-campus arena and we'd have much more flexibility, so we'd have a better schedule.

Then we were told that we just needed a Dance appearance to cement our credentials and we'd start to have a much better schedule.

Now we've gone two rounds (I don't count the NCAA's bogus "first round") into the Dance -- which, arguably, makes us one of the top 20 or so teams in the country over the past two years -- and we still have to settle for a D-2 team not only in the middle of our OOC schedule, but also scheduled as part of two games in three days. What's wrong with this picture, when is it OK to start to demand some accountability, and who should be held accountable? (Or will the next excuse be the past few years of Biondi's relative indifference?)

And on an unrelated tangent, where's Dr. C. been? I don't think he's been to at least the past three home games. He's probably our best cheerleader.

Marquette and Creighton have a connection... Biondi has the Rockhurst connection... Creighton has joined the Big East... Biondi has us well positioned in case the Great Lakes Valley Conference looks to expand. It's all good.

[kshoe]

Let me play devil's advocate for all those complaining about the date of the game and the opponent. Here are some pieces to the puzzle some may be ignoring:

- You need to play 14 or 15 non-conference games a year. This year we needed 15 because they want 18 home games (including exhibitions) and we have a bunch of road games. These need to be finished by the time conference play starts in early January.

- Basically, that allows for 2 games a week. The exceptions to that rule are 1) The Thanksgiving tourney when basically everyone plays a bunch of games in a short amount of time 2) The week of finals where we don't want a game and 3) The week of Christmas where there won't be a game on Christmas eve or Christmas in the middle of the week.

- So as you look at the schedule, its important to keep in mind that Wichita St was obviously a very tough game and Valpo on the road should be very tough. If you are going to have a game in the middle of those two (which you pretty much must do given the other two weeks of only one game) why not make it the least important and easiest game of the year?

- And if you are going to play it in the middle of the week, why not do it on a Tuesday and allow yourself more preparation time for Valpo? Clearly we don't need extra prep time for Rockhurst so playing the game on a Tuesday instead of a Wednesday makes sense to me.

- As for the complaints about playing a D2 team, it has been discussed on here time and time again that by doing this you don't hurt your RPI. Plus, they don't charge a fee to play the game. Again, it seems to make sense.

Now back to the regularly scheduled complaints.

[DirtyRican]

Let me play devil's advocate for all those complaining about the date of the game and the opponent. Here are some pieces to the puzzle some may be ignoring:

- You need to play 14 or 15 non-conference games a year. This year we needed 15 because they want 18 home games (including exhibitions) and we have a bunch of road games. These need to be finished by the time conference play starts in early January.

- Basically, that allows for 2 games a week. The exceptions to that rule are 1) The Thanksgiving tourney when basically everyone plays a bunch of games in a short amount of time 2) The week of finals where we don't want a game and 3) The week of Christmas where there won't be a game on Christmas eve or Christmas in the middle of the week.

- So as you look at the schedule, its important to keep in mind that Wichita St was obviously a very tough game and Valpo on the road should be very tough. If you are going to have a game in the middle of those two (which you pretty much must do given the other two weeks of only one game) why not make it the least important and easiest game of the year?

- And if you are going to play it in the middle of the week, why not do it on a Tuesday and allow yourself more preparation time for Valpo? Clearly we don't need extra prep time for Rockhurst so playing the game on a Tuesday instead of a Wednesday makes sense to me.

- As for the complaints about playing a D2 team, it has been discussed on here time and time again that by doing this you don't hurt your RPI. Plus, they don't charge a fee to play the game. Again, it seems to make sense.

Now back to the regularly scheduled complaints.

You are not only the best looking dude on the board but also the smartest. Bingo

The coaching staff was probably looking at Wisc, WV and WSU and figured we would be banged up playing those 3 in a row.

[SShoe]

Let me play devil's advocate for all those complaining about the date of the game and the opponent. Here are some pieces to the puzzle some may be ignoring:

- You need to play 14 or 15 non-conference games a year. This year we needed 15 because they want 18 home games (including exhibitions) and we have a bunch of road games. These need to be finished by the time conference play starts in early January.

- Basically, that allows for 2 games a week. The exceptions to that rule are 1) The Thanksgiving tourney when basically everyone plays a bunch of games in a short amount of time 2) The week of finals where we don't want a game and 3) The week of Christmas where there won't be a game on Christmas eve or Christmas in the middle of the week.

- So as you look at the schedule, its important to keep in mind that Wichita St was obviously a very tough game and Valpo on the road should be very tough. If you are going to have a game in the middle of those two (which you pretty much must do given the other two weeks of only one game) why not make it the least important and easiest game of the year?

- And if you are going to play it in the middle of the week, why not do it on a Tuesday and allow yourself more preparation time for Valpo? Clearly we don't need extra prep time for Rockhurst so playing the game on a Tuesday instead of a Wednesday makes sense to me.

- As for the complaints about playing a D2 team, it has been discussed on here time and time again that by doing this you don't hurt your RPI. Plus, they don't charge a fee to play the game. Again, it seems to make sense.

Now back to the regularly scheduled complaints.

In that case, we should consider replacing all of our lower-tier D-1 opponents with D-2s.

[Billikenswin]

Cheeseman, regarding your reference to MC, I agree that he looks intimidated. My question is why now and not earlier in the season? To some degree I have the same question with regard to TL and to a lesser degree RA. I know that Wis and WSU were much better than our early season rivals and Rockhurst, but that doesn't answer my above question.

As a long-time manager, I learned and utilized a performance system that rewarded good performance to build up the confidence of my workgroup. I have not seen that being done by JC and his staff. I wonder if MC and TL had been rewarded and encouraged after their outstanding early season games what would have happened to their confidence? Right now, as I watch them in their limited minutes I see two very tentative players, hesitant to take any action that could have a negative result, MC especially is playing like a deer caught in the headlights and TL is more than reluctant to take a 3-pt shot. It seems like the coaching staff did nothing to build upon their early season success, either in practice or in playing time. They were far more aggressive early in the season than they were against a D2 team, which I put on the coaches

Given the fact that MM and RL have seemingly lost their 3-pt shooting stroke, I think we needed to use these early games to build up the confidence of MC & TL so that they can shoot from the perimeter as well as when they reported to the 1st SLU BB practice this year. Unfortunately, I see a little Rich Grawer (pull the player if they make a mistake) in JC's handling of the freshmen. We know what we have with JB, JJ and AM from the outside-inconsistency at best and it is not going to get any better for the 2 seniors at this point in their careers. While I hope AM becomes more reliable from three, I think he needs to work on his PG skills more at this point than his shooting.

If this senior-dominated team can't pick up the pace then Free the Freshmen, because if anyone is satisfied with our performance at this point (other than the long departed Billikan and the Shoe brothers family) then you must have had extremely low expectations for the team coming into this year. What did all the pre-season mags and the pollsters know that we didn't?

I have been to all the home games and the SIUE game in person and have seen all of the others on tape. It is amazing to me that you can't see what is going on with this team and the coaches. Our seniors are put in a position to succeed and they have played well in spurts but at other times they make stupid decisions, bad passes and most important- they shoot the ball like crap. Occasionaly, they hit shots and we look pretty good. Occasionaly, they handle the ball crisply and move it as instructed and we look great--i.e. the 19-2 run at the beginning of the game yesterday. But once we went to the bench we lost a lot of continuity, particularly on the defensive end and even a Rockhurst can come back on us like they did. Then the second half started and again we looked very good for about 5 or 6 minutes with a shutout on defense and some nice buckets. The bench then came in and we were disjointed but we win by 25. This team is not ready under any circumstances to give the freshmen big minutes. They are all nice players with excellent potential but they have yet to master many of the little things necessary for sustained excellence. The seniors know what to do but at this point they seem to all have lapses in concentration and the long range shooting just is not there. If we can clean up the mistakes--and last night was frustrating to see some of the unforced errors--and shoot the ball better we can compete with most teams in the country because our defense with our core group of players is still strong. But that is a big "IF". the coaching staff is searching for a rotation which can do just that and they are as frustrated as any fan with the up and down play from our seniors. In any event, it is way too early in this season to say just throw the frosh in and get them some experience. We need to get our seniors back up to the level of play from last year if we want to be as successful as most on this board say we should be in conference.

[NextYearBill]

while im thinking about it.... when we announce the visitor team pregame... the band holds up those stupid signs like "WHO CARES" and "SO WHAT?"...... god that is lame

[Pistol]

From what I'm seeing on other schedules, playing a lower-division NCAA opponent mid-nonconference season is becoming increasingly common. And probably for the reasons kshoe points out- no fee, no RPI impact, etc.

I still don't like it.

I'd still rather play a D-I school. Yes, even though the lower-tier ones have roughly the same amount of name recognition.

These games just suck. Players don't get up for them. Fans don't get up for them. I just don't see how it makes us any better.

[slubillikens43]

while im thinking about it.... when we announce the visitor team pregame... the band holds up those stupid signs like "WHO CARES" and "SO WHAT?"...... god that is lame

One of the lamest traditions in America lol

[Old guy]

Now, please bear in mind that I am not sure if this is correct or not, but I see our record being reported at 7-2 (the Rockhurst game included) in places like Team Rankings. I wonder if this takes us marginally over similar A10 teams with a 6-2 record, like VCU. Again I do not know if this is the case or not. I may be totally wrong. Any thoughts?

[NextYearBill]

One of the lamest traditions in America lol

a simple "boo" would suffice

[slufanskip]

I have been to all the home games and the SIUE game in person and have seen all of the others on tape. It is amazing to me that you can't see what is going on with this team and the coaches. Our seniors are put in a position to succeed and they have played well in spurts but at other times they make stupid decisions, bad passes and most important- they shoot the ball like crap. Occasionaly, they hit shots and we look pretty good. Occasionaly, they handle the ball crisply and move it as instructed and we look great--i.e. the 19-2 run at the beginning of the game yesterday. But once we went to the bench we lost a lot of continuity, particularly on the defensive end and even a Rockhurst can come back on us like they did. Then the second half started and again we looked very good for about 5 or 6 minutes with a shutout on defense and some nice buckets. The bench then came in and we were disjointed but we win by 25. This team is not ready under any circumstances to give the freshmen big minutes. They are all nice players with excellent potential but they have yet to master many of the little things necessary for sustained excellence. The seniors know what to do but at this point they seem to all have lapses in concentration and the long range shooting just is not there. If we can clean up the mistakes--and last night was frustrating to see some of the unforced errors--and shoot the ball better we can compete with most teams in the country because our defense with our core group of players is still strong. But that is a big "IF". the coaching staff is searching for a rotation which can do just that and they are as frustrated as any fan with the up and down play from our seniors. In any event, it is way too early in this season to say just throw the frosh in and get them some experience. We need to get our seniors back up to the level of play from last year if we want to be as successful as most on this board say we should be in conference.

even after the way MC dominated last night?