Ok let's open the hot stove

[Tonka]

I haven't seen Tommie play. I have never met Tommie. I did not grow up in a lower income family. I did not grow up in a economically challenged neighborhood. I'm never met Tommie's folks. All that being said, everything I know about Tommie is either from this board or from the media. I've heard several times over that Tommie can look lazy on the court or passive at times. I don't know the truth to this, but is there a correlation between that and his grades? How many times have we seen kids who were talented, not live up to their full potential? We see this in sports and in academics. They often rely on their natural talent to get by or step up "when challenged" as I have heard about Tommie on the court, reading this board. Could it be that Tommie's natural talents are good enough to rely on to be a star in basketball and yet they might not be academically? And unlike basketball, something like an ACT is a "challenge" that can be stepped up to come game time. You have to step up to that over the course of time and through your education. So, is there a correlation here, if in fact his personality is that what I've read on this board. There seems to be consitency in things like that in life. Just curious. And if it's true, which I do believe, about his parents and friends and his society not stressing education, then there probably motivation for him academically and when that happens it comes within and if he has the passiveness and laziness that I have read about - well, then there's the problem. Will that change in JUCO or prep school? Maybe, maybe not depending on his surroundings and own initiative.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I am neither a proponent of "Ebonics" being taught in schools nor "okay with it."

First of all, "Ebonics" is a misnomer -- and an inaccurate term. As a contraction of "ebony" and "phonics,' "ebonics" would mean "black sounds," and that's woefully inaccurate to describe the language many African Americans speak -- a true dialect with features such as multiple negatives, consonant deletion, copula deletion, the lack of a concluding &l;r&r;, the habitual "be," and a number of other features absent in the English of wider use. Therefore, (AAE) African-American English Dialect is the term I prefer. This dialect is prevalent among African-American speakers, especially those with less education (some use more features than others). It is primarily a conversational dialect, and those who use it are reasonably proficient in it from childhood on. It doesn't need to be taught in schools, because the students already know it.

English (or grammar), as taught in schools is primarily written language. Formal written English is different from conversational English, even for speakers of so-called proper English. Our students need to learn that the standard of written English is different from the way they talk when they're with their peers. The thing I've been preaching is that it must be considerably more effective to appreciate AAE as a true dialect and guide students into understanding the difference between it and standard written English than to set out to eradicate the students' language. Doing the latter, essentially you'd be saying, "You're a barbarian; I'm going to teach you the right way to talk." Umm, no, you won't! But with the former, you'll be able to teach your students to write the conversational "I be too tired to do no homework when I walk through da do'" as "I'm always to tired to start my homework when I first get home."

[jjray]

Why try to put labels on a guy like that after only reading about him? Dwayne Wade was a partial qualifier at Marquette (meaning he had to sit out a year to get eligible) and led the Golden Eagles to the Final Four. Just because a guy has trouble with the ACT really means nothing other than his language skills are below average or he is a poor test taker which could be due to a number of things--such as not being brought up in an environment where reading and writing are encouraged.

Let's keep and keep an open mind. I think Schasz is right. Tommie is going to have to do significantly better this time around on the ACT or an agreement shall be reached that he is going to prep school or JUCO ... which means we get our scholarship back in time for it to help. There is no cause to trash a young man based solely upon ACT scores.

[Tonka]

If we want tests and society to be unbiased, it should be used cautiously around children. Okay, I am dropping the subject. I do not want to be involved in your posts of these matters anyway. I mistakenly jumped in, my friend.

[Tonka]

I was merely stating what others on this post have said. I opened the discussion up to those people. If you were not one of them, then your opinion may differ.

[Quality Is Job 1]

>If we want tests and society to be unbiased, it should be

>used cautiously around children. Okay, I am dropping the

>subject. I do not want to be involved in your posts of

>these matters anyway. I mistakenly jumped in, my friend.

"If we want tests and society to be unbiased, it should be used cautiously around children."

What does "it" represent? I value your thoughts on the subject. Can't we have meaningful dialogue? Maybe together we can help find a way to right the tilting ship of educating all children in America.

[Tonka]

"It" referring to ebonics. You seemed to justify ebonics in today's society about 5 months back. Maybe not justify it as much as defend it's place and why it is used. I certainly have not been around it enough to form any opinions. But, like a lot of things, I give my opinion for that sake of discussion. And, in my opinion, ebonics should be used catutiously around children, since I read earlier in the thread that often education is not prioritized as maybe it should be. That being said, how will a child ever know the difference of the english language? If it becomes a common language in some communities and education isn't there to seperate the differences, then aren't we setting these kids up for disadvantages later in life? Just my thoughts.

[Quality Is Job 1]

The key is education. If children aren't in an environment where education is important, then it doesn't matter what dialect of English is spoken. African American English is no different, in that respect, than any other casual language. Even the President speaks one way in casual conversation with his closest friends and another way when reading speeches (which are standard written English -- and almost no one talks that way).

What got all this started was the conversations among Amy Stewart, Carmento Floyd, and Ricky Clemons. Well, they may talk that way in private, but don't think that they talk that way when wider English is expected. In those situations, they use the language of wider communication (so-called standard English). They appear to be successful enough, to me (excepting Clemons).

Your very notion that AAE shouldn't be used around children perpetuates the notion that it should be eradicated. If it's not used around children, the children won't acquire it, and the dialect will eventually die. Then all the people with the assimilation mindset will be very happy. It won't happen, because when people are at home, comfortable, around their friends and family, they will speak their native language, whether that's near-standard English, Spanish, or African American English. And, as long as the community educates, they all learn the language of wider communications, so I don't think African American children are endangered by being exposed to AAE.

[Schasz]

I used the words may have...which means speculation or possibility especially since our name has been linked with the recruitment of Foster. We don't have an extra scholie for Foster if we sign a 4 prospect. We wouldn't need Foster if TL qualified...just stirring the pot on my part as I count the Gators while riding my bike here in the Sunshine State.

[Tonka]

Like I said, you would know better than I. Unfortuantely, I have seen AAE used in a professional environement. I do not know if they were slips, results of habit, or poor education. In any regards, thanks for the info!

[brehms13]

Not getting on anyone just pointing out some other observations. I believe people will never agree on the SAT OR ACT being Culturally biased. I don't believe that should be a crutch for Minorities to under acheive, just as i don't believe if someone isn't acheiving on these test that there must be lack of parental influence on education, or it must be their environment or Public schooling.

As a product of Public schooling in "Baltimore City" which was ranked for years as one of the top 5 cities for the most Murders in this country, I can assure you that everything isn't always Black and White. I've personally seen that times have changed and that in most public schools there's basically turmoil. With the exception of a few teachers and administrators, most are tired of having to fight their cities for a bigger budget for books, computers, supplies just to teach children the bare minimum needed to pass and get out of school. The President allocated millions to states to repair the school systems with the "No Child Left Behind" program and it doesn't matter because the Public School System always get the short end of the stick.

I also know that society likes to keep Minorities(??) in a bubble and note problems of a few as problems of us all. Not true. Reg went to Prep school, strictly to build up his credibilty for basketball, nothing about academics. Academically he could've gone to any college of his choice. He took the SAT twice, the first time "society" tried to say he cheated, he took it a second time which was mandated and scored about 300 points higher then he did the first time, making his ticket to any school guaranteed. They did exactly what others do all the time. Assumed because he was a resident of the inner city, transferred from a public school to Calvert Hall that he possibly couldn't measure up to any of the other kids. He proved them wrong. Sure Reg comes from a two parent home and had family support, we weren't poor, but he made it. But Reg made the decision is mind that education was the KEY to a better life and that BASKETBALL would PAY for his education. I think players today have to make that decision. Parents can't do it, teachers can't, gov't can't, coaches can't. The players themselves. and If Tommie has a made up mind he'll suceed. If SLU is interested in him, they'll wait if he has to do PREP school. But i'm not gonna sit here and judge his educational level, his home life and up bringing or anything else. It's not fair to him. The most disturbing thing is that when Most people see young Black Athletes, they automatically think the worst and don't even know them. That's borderline right there. We can't assume we know anything about anyone and their situation. Until my father's illness, most thought Reg and or Dad was Estranged, those who didn't know him that is. If Tommie doesn't make the scores, he just doesn't If our only interest is Basketball and winning games and not his overall education and if he will even fit with where the program is going, then it's a mood point anyway. We have him in remedial school, coming from a broken home which doesn't promote education!!!!!!!!!!! It's Funny. I hope someone out there get what I'm saying. Anyone???

[jjray]

Nice post brehms13. It's been awhile since I have been to Balitmore but I think Baltimore and St. Louis are very similar in their inner city neighborhoods (albeit, we have no inner harbor). E. St. Louis, however, is on a whole different level I'm afraid. In the DC-Baltimore area, Anacostia may be the closest approximation but even that analogy probably does not do the situation justice. We have posters from East St. Louis on the board (and I am not one) so I would not presume to have an intimate knowledge on the subject.

I found myself nodding with two points in your post: (a) preconcieved notions of the academic ability (or lack thereof) of an african-american from an inner city public school system and ( not using the difficult cards one has been dealt in life as a crutch. I especially admire those who rise above adversity in life. BTW, I also believe adversity visits us all in one form or another during life regardless of race or economic circumstances.

If Tommie Liddell goes to prep school for 1 year or JUCO for 2, I would hope that SLU is waiting with open arms when he is ready for D1.

[billiken_roy]

i just drove through east st louis on the way back from a morning business appt. as depressed as it gets imo. i seriously doubt there is a more depressed area in the country.

[courtside]

Not even the same....recommended viewing...the movie "Hoop Dreams" real life documentary on two kids who are typical example of the public school system in tougher environments....kids get passed every year from early grade school without the basic skills required.

Frankly I think your post is naive. Spend some serious time inner city public high schools, and start in grade school. IT is over when they reach high school, no matter how good a kid...Andre Miller, Dwyane Wade, these good kids who went on to excel in college never had a chance when they were younger in their environments.

Not everybody has the same academic environment, and it starts way before high school.

[3star_recruit]

"We have him in remedial school, coming from a broken home which doesn't promote education!!!!!!!!!!!"

I don't think anybody posted that Tommie was from a broken home -- that's a little too personal for a basketball message board. I agree that posters who have implied that his family doesn't stress education have crossed the line. But when I cite the poverty-level conditions of East St. Louis and the extreme deficiency of that city's school system, that isn't meant to give Tommie a crutch it's just recognizing the obstacles that are in his way -- obstacles that Tommie is going to work his tail off to overcome.

If Tommie can somehow qualify, Reggie would probably be an ideal mentor for him. Reggie, academically and athletically, is where Tommie could be in four years.

[BIG BILL FAN]

sorry Roy but I am tired of blaming the schools and the teachers for the academic struggles of students in poor areas. The answer to why they struggle is quite simple yet very few want to publicly state the truth. The breakdown of the family is the reason that so many black children are doing so poorly in school and in life in general. My wife used to teach in the St. Louis Public school system and it was a nightmare. Her last year at her school she had a class of 25 students. Here are some statistics about this 4th grade class:

>of her 25 students only 3 had a mother and father living together in the same house as their child

> 6 of her students had a parent that was currently in prison.

> during the year 2 of her students had a sibling murdered.

> parent teacher conferences were held twice a year and supposedly they were mandatory..my wife never had more than 7 of the 25 show up for their appointment...(appointments were available during the day or night.

> most of her students ( 10 years old ) were responsible for getting theirselves up in the morning with no one at home and most went home in the afternoon with no parent at home.

> the filthy language and obnoxious behavior by many of the students was an everyday occurence.

I could continue on but I think I have made my point. If we ever want to effectively help the black community with it's struggles we need to go back to the morality taught in the Bible ( now that is a novel concept). Marriage and family commitments are an essential part of a child' future success. When we blame the teachers and the school system for the poor performance of our children we are putting the cart before the horse. A child's upbringing at home is the most vital part of his or hers future success...

[billiken_roy]

i totally agree with everything you have said.

[brehms13]

I'm confused, are u telling me to spend time in Inner City schools, that I'm Naive?

[Quality Is Job 1]

Brehms, courtside was responding to NYBill.

[STLRedbird]

Sounds like Foster has narrowed his choices to OSU & ISU.

Ohio State has offered Foster and it appears to be between us and them. He is visiting ISU this week.

http://scout.theinsiders.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&...004&nid=1029477

[billiken_roy]

umass and minnesota

[STLRedbird]

forget uminn.

[3star_recruit]

The ball is in Tommie's court now. The staff is standing by him.

[DeSmetBilliken]

When Robert Whaley was on trial a couple years ago, there was a long article on the situation which included a few paragraphs about Benton Harbor, Michigan, which is the town that Whaley is from. The article mentioned some of the poorest, most depressed cities in the country, and while East St. Louis was mentioned, Benton Harbor was described as much worse than East St. Louis. There was a quote I remember as "Most people think of East St. Louis as rock bottom, but Benton Harbor has only a percentage of the income East St. Louis has."

[DeSmetBilliken]

Just out of curiousity, Roy, who is the big dufus from Chicago?