Nolan Berry

[Clock_Tower]

losing a recruit to butler is not a shame, but getting outworked by butler for a top local recruit whose grandfather is the all-time great billiken leaves a bad taste. stevens worked this one hard himself and he got the job done. I think SLU could have gotten Nolan. we made an effort, but way too much slippage on this one, especially with the ties to the SLU program.

bad boyz for life

PDiddy. Not you too!! SLU and RM got "outworked"? Really?? I usually trust your opinion, as do many/most on this Board. You must know something so what can you tell us about this situation?

[kshoe]

PDiddy. Not you too!! SLU and RM got "outworked"? Really?? I usually trust your opinion, as do many/most on this Board. You must know something so what can you tell us about this situation?

In all seriousness, and I'm not making excuses as I am disapointed with the weird way in which we went about recruiting Berry, Rick said he wasn't recruiting this summer when his mom was in hospice. Throw in that our lead recruiter for him went to Loyola and its fair to say we were probably outworked.

Sheat happens and this sucks but its hardly the end of the world.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Exactly. Butler is a legitimate program, not just a flash of lightning. They've been to the NIT or NCAA tournament 13 times in the past 15 years. They've been to the NCAA tournament 10 times in the past 15 years, including the last five successive seasons. They've been to four sweet sixteens and two national championship games. Butler has built a program that has shown that it has staying power - it hasn't just been 2010 and 2011.

All-time head to head series: SLU 16 wins, Butler 11 wins. An above poster said SLU and Butler were once even. I beg to differ: SLU was ahead of Butler until this most recent Butler success.

Re all those NCAA's in recent history, many of those were the product of Butler being in the Horizon League, which is fine, but merits mention. Even last season may well have been a product of the Horizon. But it puts things in some perspective.

Also, re Santa Clara mentioned above, Santa Clara won the CIT last season and has an up and coming program under a former UCLA Assistant, who is being well compensated, and who has that program turning the corner. Santa Clara is a Jesuit school, has a highly ranked Business School in the middle of Silicon Valley, has a beautiful campus, a large endowment, and is ranked #2 in the West in the Regional Masters category by US News & World Report. And so it's clear, I root for USF ahead of SCU.

More particular to basketball, Nolan Berry appears to fit the profile of Butler and Santa Clara 4's and 5's.

Still, it is tough losing him, especially to a Butler.

[thetorch]

Really? I must have missed that long list of great local talent that Spoon and Romar brought in.

Really check the billikens all time scoring list, couple local guys Spoon brought in. They are 2 and 5 on that list I believe.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm a Butler fan but I'm also a SLU law student (and Billikens fan) who's been reading this board for a while. I just never had the desire to participate before today.

Coach Majerus mentioned previously turning down a home and home with Butler. I agree with the coach's retrospective view that turning down the home and home with Butler was a mistake. I'm sure Coach Majerus did not expect Butler to be a serious opponent in the recruitment of the grandson of the greatest Billiken of all time, who goes to DeSmet Jesuit High School. Frankly, would anyone from SLU? I readily admit that I wouldn't have expected that. But it may have helped to have played that home and home, and at minimum win the game in St. Louis, where Butler traditionally is toast.

We have to move onward now. Nolan Berry can enjoy his time in the big gym from Hoosiers. SLU can fill that spot with someone his equal or someone better.

Also, in response to the above labeling of SLU as a fellow "mid-major," by a Butler poster, the Atlantic 10 by definition, is not mid-major. Xavier refused a mid-major player award to one of its players, and the A-10 does not play in the Bracket Buster.

Now in advance response to the expected inevitable rebuttals from fellow Billikens on this board, just remember whose side you are on.

[cheeseman]

I think some people think that SLU is on a higher level than Butler because of its membership in the A10 or because of lasting impressions from when SLU was a member of the old MCC with Butler up until 1991. The A10 is absolutely a better conference than the Horizon, but A10 membership does not necessarily mean that SLU's program is better than Butler's or any other mid-major. SLU absolutely used to be better than Butler, such as when SLU made it to back-to-back NIT championship games in '89 and '90, but that was 20 years ago. Conference affiliation is a factor but not the whole equation.

Honestly, looking at the A10 and the Horizon last year, Butler/Xavier was a competitive game, just as I expect it to be this year. I think Temple/Cleveland State, Richmond/Milwaukee, and Duquesne/Valparaiso would have been pretty good games too. Wright State and Detroit probably wouldn't have been very competitive with George Washington and Rhode Island, but you never know. The reason the A10 is better than the Horizon is because the Horizon's #6-10 are typically not as good as the A10's #6-10. However, that's the benefit of having a 14-member conference and looking from the top down. If you look from the bottom up, the Horizon's bottom three or four were probably just as good as the A10's bottom three or four.

Congrats on getting a good recruit. That said, to say our bottom teams are better than your bottom teams is just silly. That may be but the more teams in a conf the more chance the conf ranking will be lower than a smaller one given the way the bottom teams drag it down. The A10 is a better conf than the Horizon but that said, Butler could play in a many top conf. so the conf thing has nothing to do with anything.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Congrats on getting a good recruit. That said, to say our bottom teams are better than your bottom teams is just silly. That may be but the more teams in a conf the more chance the conf ranking will be lower than a smaller one given the way the bottom teams drag it down. The A10 is a better conf than the Horizon but that said, Butler could play in a many top conf. so the conf thing has nothing to do with anything.

My opinion is that Butler's presence in the Horizon has indeed had much to do with its success. In the Horizon, Butler faces no competition on par with the likes of Xavier or Temple, especially a Temple playing the A-10 Tournament in Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City.

A Butler in the A-10 the last 15 years would have been a Butler with far fewer NCAA Tournament appearances, in my opinion.

But more power and kudos go to Butler for its evidently correct decision to make itself the big fish in a small pond.

[coogles]

What's the definition of a mid-major?

If it's not being a member of one of the Big Six conferences, then the A-10 and St. Louis clearly fall into that description. Is it a minimum budget? What's the minimum? The 10th largest MBB budget in the Big East in 2009 (Cincinnati) was bigger than the largest A-10 budget (Xavier) in the same year. If it is a minimum budget, that minimum had better be pretty low or you aren't going to be able to paint the entire A-10 as "not a mid-major". All but Xavier, Dayton and SLU had budgets under $3MM in 2009.

[ACE]

Really check the billikens all time scoring list, couple local guys Spoon brought in. They are 2 and 5 on that list I believe.

I did check the list. Spoon did not bring in #2 and #5. Clag and Highmark were brought in by the previous coach. Try again. I liked Spoon a lot, but I remember a lot of good local players who left town on his watch.

[Box and Won]

What's the definition of a mid-major?

[Bay Area Billiken]

What's the definition of a mid-major?

If it's not being a member of one of the Big Six conferences, then the A-10 and St. Louis clearly fall into that description. Is it a minimum budget? What's the minimum? The 10th largest MBB budget in the Big East in 2009 (Cincinnati) was bigger than the largest A-10 budget (Xavier) in the same year. If it is a minimum budget, that minimum had better be pretty low or you aren't going to be able to paint the entire A-10 as "not a mid-major". All but Xavier, Dayton and SLU had budgets under $3MM in 2009.

I don't know per se, except I do know that the A-10, C-USA, the Mountain West, and the WAC (in the past as to the WAC, probably not now or soon) are not in the BCS, but are not considered mid-major. They are in an in between category.

A few years ago Xavier refused a mid-major player award to Lavender.

[moytoy12]

I think Butler should join the MVC.

[coogles]

I don't know per se, except I do know that the A-10, C-USA, the Mountain West, and the WAC (in the past as to the WAC, probably not now or soon) are not in the BCS, but are not considered mid-major. They are in an in between category.

A few years ago Xavier refused a mid-major player award to Lavender.

The Mountain West is the only one of those with an argument. Their football and MBB programs have budgets that rival some of the biggest of the BCS.

For most of C-USA, absolutely not. The WAC? Um, no, not escaping the mid-major label in MBB (that's what we're talking about, right?) If the WAC isn't mid-major, neither is the MAC. You really want to argue that LaSalle, Fordham, St. Bonaventure, Duquesne etc. aren't mid-major? You can if you want, but no one who isn't on this message board or an A-10 homer will agree with you.

The only label that means anything is BCS versus non-BCS. That's where the money line is really drawn, it's what most people mean when they use the mid-major term, but most importantly it's a concrete definition that doesn't require interpretation. A few programs have crossed that "high-major" border despite being in lesser conferences (Xavier being one), but to claim that the entire A-10 is universally considered something other than mid-major is just plain false.

[jbizzle09]

My opinion is that Butler's presence in the Horizon has indeed had much to do with its success. In the Horizon, Butler faces no competition on par with the likes of Xavier or Temple, especially a Temple playing the A-10 Tournament in Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City.

A Butler in the A-10 the last 15 years would have been a Butler with far fewer NCAA Tournament appearances, in my opinion.

But more power and kudos go to Butler for its evidently correct decision to make itself the big fish in a small pond.

To be fair, Butler typically schedules a pretty tough non-conf schedule to offset the relative weakness of its conf schedule. Thus, their overall SOS is usually on par with A-10 and CUSA schools. Below are schools that they played in the past few years:

2010-11: L'Ville, Duke, Xavier, Stanford, FSU, Wash St (3-3 record)

2009-10: Northwestern, Minnesota, UCLA, Clemson, GTown, Ohio St, Xavier, UAB (4-3)

2008-09: Northwestern, OSU, Xavier, UAB, Davidson (4-1)

2007-08: Michigan, VTech, TTech, OSU, FSU, SIU, Drake (6-1)

2006-07: ND, Indiana, Tenn, Gonzaga, Purdue, SIU (5-1)

And, one can point at Butler being in the Horizon and dominating it when it comes to pointing out its tournament appearances. However, does that explain how it went to back-to-back title games? My feeling is that if Butler was in the A10 or CUSA it would have just as much success as it has currently. It is a well run program that has done well against all levels of competition for quite a while now, which is far more than we can say about SLU.

I say, let us win SOMETHING before we start making passive-agressive swipes at better programs.

[Box and Won]

I think Butler should join the MVC.

Butler should have recruited Blake Ahearn.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Brad Stevens was a guest speaker at a six-sigma training seminar that my sister attended with a group of Caterpillar employees in Peoria about a month ago and a question was asked if Butler and Bradley would renew their series. Stevens gave the "have you been under a ###### rock the last two years?" look to the guy and said that they are now an elite basketball program and have now set their sights on scheduling marquee names to come to Indy.

Regardless of whether or not Butler can sustain this success in a post-Matt Howard era, they have played for a chance to dance to the sweet sounds of Luther Vandross while cutting the nets down TWO YEARS IN A ROW. That is an accomplishment that will put you in the "elite" conversation.

We are nowhere close to that.

Good luck, Nolan. We'll be here waiting for you to transfer back.

[IndyDawg]

Butler and Xavier will be joining the big east at some some point. Until then, they aren't doing anything.

[Quality Is Job 1]

The Mountain West is the only one of those with an argument. Their football and MBB programs have budgets that rival some of the biggest of the BCS.

For most of C-USA, absolutely not. The WAC? Um, no, not escaping the mid-major label in MBB (that's what we're talking about, right?) If the WAC isn't mid-major, neither is the MAC. You really want to argue that LaSalle, Fordham, St. Bonaventure, Duquesne etc. aren't mid-major? You can if you want, but no one who isn't on this message board or an A-10 homer will agree with you.

The only label that means anything is BCS versus non-BCS. That's where the money line is really drawn, it's what most people mean when they use the mid-major term, but most importantly it's a concrete definition that doesn't require interpretation. A few programs have crossed that "high-major" border despite being in lesser conferences (Xavier being one), but to claim that the entire A-10 is universally considered something other than mid-major is just plain false.

Except that the fact that terms like BCS and mid-major, by definition refer to conferences, not individual programs. Gonzaga is a mid-major, as is Butler, because of the fact that the conference does not play Div. I-A football. The Mountain West and WAC play football in the FBS, so they are not mid-major. I'm not sure if the MAC plays in the FBS, but if they do, then they're not mid-major, either.

Regarding basketball, I think there's some adaptation to the definition, because some conferences have some non-football programs. The Atlantic 10 is such a conference. I'm not sure if the A-10 is technically mid-major or not (if they are, then Xavier is, even if they bristle at the definition and refuse awards). However, I looked at a national preview magazine -- Sporting News, I think, and it divided the programs into two tiers: high-major and mid-major/minor (which would be incorrect, because "minor" refers to programs at the Div. 2 level). The A-10 and Missouri Valley were listed as high-major.

[moytoy12]

Butler should have recruited Blake Ahearn.

I wonder if the Berry commitment will affect Butler's kenpom rating. I think he still has our rating from last year up, so it might take a while.

[slufan13]

Hey at least after this we don't have to have the Nolan Berry argument anymore. We can concentrate on this year's team and not our 2013-2014 team.

At least he didn't go to Loyola. This board would be out of control if Porter would've gotten him.

[For-DaLove]

Butler and Xavier will be joining the big east at some some point. Until then, they aren't doing anything.

I guess you know more about this conference realignment mess than the AD's do. You must be well informed.

[Archy McNally]

I'm also shocked at the down-the-nose attitude toward Butler. They played for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. They made the FINAL FOUR, TWICE. The attitude on this board toward Butler is probably worse than the attitude most Mizzou fans show toward even the concept of playing SLU.

I agree. It's ridiculous, but actually not that surprising b/c you get this with a typical message board.

With two Tourney Final's appearances and a star coach, I would easily consider Butler one of the best 25 programs today and probably better than that. Some programs have just beat the non-BCS affiliation, Butler, Xavier, Temple, BYU, Gonzaga, etc.

[Box and Won]

I wonder if the Berry commitment will affect Butler's kenpom rating. I think he still has our rating from last year up, so it might take a while.

I'm pretty sure that kenpom rating is from last year. My apologies if that's been mentioned before.

[The Pelican]

I wonder if the Berry commitment will affect Butler's kenpom rating. I think he still has our rating from last year up, so it might take a while.

I think last year's rating is on kenpom. Can someone confirm this?

[For-DaLove]

I think last year's rating is on kenpom. Can someone confirm this?

I thought that was when we still had Porter and were predicted to land Berry? We'll probably be around 200 in the updated rankings