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OT: Professional Soccer in St. Louis


kevinfootes

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http://www.stltoday.com/sports/soccer/article_4a85b488-0fbd-56d2-b17e-b408d13532e9.html

It looks like another team bites the dust. For having a pretty bad product on the field and very little hype, the attendance numbers weren't too bad IMO. I think it goes to show that it's very hard to make money in this sport, particularly in the lower levels. As a side note, I found it interesting that the women's pro soccer league is now down to 6 teams, all on the east coast. I guess the lack of interest was more than just a St. Louis issue.

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http://www.stltoday.com/sports/soccer/article_4a85b488-0fbd-56d2-b17e-b408d13532e9.html

It looks like another team bites the dust. For having a pretty bad product on the field and very little hype, the attendance numbers weren't too bad IMO. I think it goes to show that it's very hard to make money in this sport, particularly in the lower levels. As a side note, I found it interesting that the women's pro soccer league is now down to 6 teams, all on the east coast. I guess the lack of interest was more than just a St. Louis issue.

Real shame. Sorry to see them go. I never went to a game so I cannot blame others for not going.

As an aside, my kids (ages 7 and 9) play for Lou Fusz Soccer here in town. Soccer remains very popular as a youth sport, the quality of play seems to get better and better each year, both locally and nationally, but as a revenue sport, it continues to struggle.

Would things have been any different with an MLS team - especially in this bad economy (yes, probably greater attendance and more revenue; however, the expenses also would be higher -- would/will MLS be more profitable?)

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Real shame. Sorry to see them go. I never went to a game so I cannot blame others for not going.

As an aside, my kids (ages 7 and 9) play for Lou Fusz Soccer here in town. Soccer remains very popular as a youth sport, the quality of play seems to get better and better each year, both locally and nationally, but as a revenue sport, it continues to struggle.

Would things have been any different with an MLS team - especially in this bad economy (yes, probably greater attendance and more revenue; however, the expenses also would be higher -- would/will MLS be more profitable?)

I forget what the MLS expansion fee was going to be...something like $35 million. It was enough to scare away any local investors. I'm not sure how in the world you run a franchise and cover the expansion fee without losing money for several years. I think the salary cap is about $2.6 million not counting the protected player rule (or whatever it's called). The teams only get about $2 million each from TV (I think that's what courtside posted).

The average attendance for MLS was 16K in 2009, but that number is inflated by Seattle. I guess you could hope for 15K/game. That would be about 225K in total attendance for regular season games (I'm sure they also play a few friendlies and exhibitions, but I'm not sure what you could charge for those games). If you could average $15/ticket, you could cover the cost of the players and probably the coach, but that doesn't go into travel, support staff, etc.

That's not to mention the cost of building a soccer-only facility. omight be able to make some money, but IMO you're either gambling on more success down the road or willing to wait many years to cover your investment.

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I forget what the MLS expansion fee was going to be...something like $35 million. It was enough to scare away any local investors. I'm not sure how in the world you run a franchise and cover the expansion fee without losing money for several years. I think the salary cap is about $2.6 million not counting the protected player rule (or whatever it's called). The teams only get about $2 million each from TV (I think that's what courtside posted).

The average attendance for MLS was 16K in 2009, but that number is inflated by Seattle. I guess you could hope for 15K/game. That would be about 225K in total attendance for regular season games (I'm sure they also play a few friendlies and exhibitions, but I'm not sure what you could charge for those games). If you could average $15/ticket, you could cover the cost of the players and probably the coach, but that doesn't go into travel, support staff, etc.

That's not to mention the cost of building a soccer-only facility. omight be able to make some money, but IMO you're either gambling on more success down the road or willing to wait many years to cover your investment.

The expansion fee is a JOKE! They raised it $10 million (from $25 million) in either 2008 or 2009, which effectively eliminated a competent St. Louis bid...The MLS expansion scheme is flawed in that it almost guarantees that teams will lose money in the first few years. I'm betting that MLS thinks that Montreal, Portland, and Vancouver will all make money from the beginning (similar to Seattle and Toronto), which allowed them to raise the fee a few years ago...

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The problem is development programs and a lack of interest in soccer by the average fan.

With college football and basketball, we can watch some of these kids from when they have break out years in high school, show up on the recruiting radar, arrive on campus to finally when Stern or Goddell announces their name in the draft.

Half of these guys are washed-up foreigners and our US-born soccer players don't get national television exposure until their "Final Four." The College Cup can't hold a candle to the College World Series. Heck, we all can reel off Robin Ventura's hitting streak when he was at Okie State and can name off guys like Rod Dedeaux, Skip Bertman, Pete Incaviglia and old Ron Polk, but I couldn't tell you who won the 2008 College Cup.

I enjoy watching our Bills play and every four years I'll probably step into a bar and watch the Yanks get hosed by some Iranian ref in the World Cup, but the US will never be a land where pro soccer flourishes.

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The problem is development programs and a lack of interest in soccer by the average fan.

With college football and basketball, we can watch some of these kids from when they have break out years in high school, show up on the recruiting radar, arrive on campus to finally when Stern or Goddell announces their name in the draft.

Half of these guys are washed-up foreigners and our US-born soccer players don't get national television exposure until their "Final Four." The College Cup can't hold a candle to the College World Series. Heck, we all can reel off Robin Ventura's hitting streak when he was at Okie State and can name off guys like Rod Dedeaux, Skip Bertman, Pete Incaviglia and old Ron Polk, but I couldn't tell you who won the 2008 College Cup.

I enjoy watching our Bills play and every four years I'll probably step into a bar and watch the Yanks get hosed by some Iranian ref in the World Cup, but the US will never be a land where pro soccer flourishes.

I think that's a bit strong. Soccer has grown a great deal over the last 20 years in the USA. It has a long way to go and will probably never surpass the big 3, but it will flourish and I think an argument could be made that it is flourishing now.
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I think that's a bit strong. Soccer has grown a great deal over the last 20 years in the USA. It has a long way to go and will probably never surpass the big 3, but it will flourish and I think an argument could be made that it is flourishing now.

I'd like to see that White Paper/Case Study.

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What would you like to see in the case study? That it's growing? Or maybe that it's flourishing? What would you call flourishing?

Ratings growth would be nice. ESPN is hemorrhaging money with their telecasts of MLS.

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The problem is development programs and a lack of interest in soccer by the average fan.

With college football and basketball, we can watch some of these kids from when they have break out years in high school, show up on the recruiting radar, arrive on campus to finally when Stern or Goddell announces their name in the draft.

Half of these guys are washed-up foreigners and our US-born soccer players don't get national television exposure until their "Final Four." The College Cup can't hold a candle to the College World Series. Heck, we all can reel off Robin Ventura's hitting streak when he was at Okie State and can name off guys like Rod Dedeaux, Skip Bertman, Pete Incaviglia and old Ron Polk, but I couldn't tell you who won the 2008 College Cup.

I enjoy watching our Bills play and every four years I'll probably step into a bar and watch the Yanks get hosed by some Iranian ref in the World Cup, but the US will never be a land where pro soccer flourishes.

This topic has been covered. There's plenty of interest in professional soccer. That isn't the issue.

Those college baseball and basketball players go on to play in the World's best pro leagues, which take place in the USA. If those top pro leagues were in Europe, there'd be less interest.

Major League baseball is approaching 150 years in existence and yet college baseball is a Regional playoff and final 8 team televised situation.

The NBA? 8 NBA teams have had an operating deficit the past decade plus. This is a 65 year old league.

A little perspective would be a good start.

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This topic has been covered. There's plenty of interest in professional soccer. That isn't the issue.

Those college baseball and basketball players go on to play in the World's best pro leagues, which take place in the USA. If those top pro leagues were in Europe, there'd be less interest.

Major League baseball is approaching 150 years in existence and yet college baseball is a Regional playoff and final 8 team televised situation.

The NBA? 8 NBA teams have had an operating deficit the past decade plus. This is a 65 year old league.

A little perspective would be a good start.

"Plenty of interest" compared to what?

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If the best players in the world weren't playing with an 8 hour time difference from us, soccer would already be much more popular. Right now it takes the big events (world cup, champions league final, etc.) to get people to watch the sport at odd hours but if (and this is obviously a stupidly big if) the MLS or any other american soccer league started drawing ALL the best players it would be a huge moneymaker in this country I think.

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If the best players in the world weren't playing with an 8 hour time difference from us, soccer would already be much more popular. Right now it takes the big events (world cup, champions league final, etc.) to get people to watch the sport at odd hours but if (and this is obviously a stupidly big if) the MLS or any other american soccer league started drawing ALL the best players it would be a huge moneymaker in this country I think.

8 hours? Where are the best players in the world playing? Isn't London 5 hours ahead of the Eastern time zone? In any case, there is tivo/dvr technology out there.

I'd be willing to wager that if MLS tried to go out and sign "ALL" the best players in the world at their market value it would be a financial disaster at this point.

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8 hours? Where are the best players in the world playing? Isn't London 5 hours ahead of the Eastern time zone? In any case, there is tivo/dvr technology out there.

I'd be willing to wager that if MLS tried to go out and sign "ALL" the best players in the world at their market value it would be a financial disaster at this point.

I'm saying that it would have to be a gradual thing. And pardon me for saying 8 hours, simple mistake. Nonetheless the audience is smaller at noon on a weekday than events in primetime. We're basically exposed to AA ball.

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http://www.stltoday.com/sports/soccer/article_4a85b488-0fbd-56d2-b17e-b408d13532e9.html

It looks like another team bites the dust. For having a pretty bad product on the field and very little hype, the attendance numbers weren't too bad IMO. I think it goes to show that it's very hard to make money in this sport, particularly in the lower levels. As a side note, I found it interesting that the women's pro soccer league is now down to 6 teams, all on the east coast. I guess the lack of interest was more than just a St. Louis issue.

It's difficult to make money in ANY sport at its lower levels. That's different than the bigger boy leagues...say the $3 billion English Premier League for example.

Fans are not attending minor league baseball games more often than Major League games. Television revenue is not higher for minor league games than major league games. Insert many other sports here. Also, women's sports leagues are not generating more revenue than men's leagues of a similar sport.

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I forget what the MLS expansion fee was going to be...something like $35 million. It was enough to scare away any local investors. I'm not sure how in the world you run a franchise and cover the expansion fee without losing money for several years. I think the salary cap is about $2.6 million not counting the protected player rule (or whatever it's called). The teams only get about $2 million each from TV (I think that's what courtside posted).

The average attendance for MLS was 16K in 2009, but that number is inflated by Seattle. I guess you could hope for 15K/game. That would be about 225K in total attendance for regular season games (I'm sure they also play a few friendlies and exhibitions, but I'm not sure what you could charge for those games). If you could average $15/ticket, you could cover the cost of the players and probably the coach, but that doesn't go into travel, support staff, etc.

That's not to mention the cost of building a soccer-only facility. omight be able to make some money, but IMO you're either gambling on more success down the road or willing to wait many years to cover your investment.

You've jumped to MLS here. Your original topic was an entirely different thing. Soccer isn't soccer across the board. Baseball isn't baseball across the board. MLB is different from A ball etc...

MLS contract negotiations are currently ongoing to replace older dated contracts. New teams have been added etc...lots of changes since the old ones. Also, with tv revenue, that doesn't count local tv revenue of which some teams previously were doing $4-5 million...to go along with their other sources of revenue. The new tv deals will double to triple previous National tv revenue.

American Broadcasters paid triple totals for European League tv access than for MLS. And, immediately ratings became higher for those telecasts than for MLS despite brutal start times and weekday games.

It's important to break down one league at a time and its specifics. Example, local tv revenue other revenue, all four National tv outlets for MLS, etc...

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Soccer has great athletes but is a boring sport.

With baseball, basketball, football, hockey, etc, soccer will never flourish in the USA. Too much competition.

The rest of the world has very few options, so soccer is big. Ghana.

St. Louis was the center of the universe for US soccer 40 years ago, so you heard a lot about it around here. Hype.

Some still cling to it, but success is not going to happen. These soccer teams fail time after time, though the Steamers did OK for awhile. I cannot believe new people choose to invest every couple of years. It's just not there.

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Soccer has great athletes but is a boring sport.

With baseball, basketball, football, hockey, etc, soccer will never flourish in the USA. Too much competition.

The rest of the world has very few options, so soccer is big. Ghana.

St. Louis was the center of the universe for US soccer 40 years ago, so you heard a lot about it around here. Hype.

Some still cling to it, but success is not going to happen. These soccer teams fail time after time, though the Steamers did OK for awhile. I cannot believe new people choose to invest every couple of years. It's just not there.

Thanks for chiming in. Anytime I'm on the opposite end of an issue from you, I know I'm right.

Did you know the NFL is more popular now than it was in it's 15th year?

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Thanks for chiming in. Anytime I'm on the opposite end of an issue from you, I know I'm right.

Did you know the NFL is more popular now than it was in it's 15th year?

American football will never take off. With Baseball, Boxing, and Horse Racing the market is too saturated with exciting sports to watch men pile up on one another over and over again.

/1926 logic

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Soccer has great athletes but is a boring sport.

With baseball, basketball, football, hockey, etc, soccer will never flourish in the USA. Too much competition.

The rest of the world has very few options, so soccer is big. Ghana.

St. Louis was the center of the universe for US soccer 40 years ago, so you heard a lot about it around here. Hype.

Some still cling to it, but success is not going to happen. These soccer teams fail time after time, though the Steamers did OK for awhile. I cannot believe new people choose to invest every couple of years. It's just not there.

"Did I hear a niner in there?". David Spade, "Tommy Boy."

Yes, when reflecting on historical soccer success and World Cup Soccer success since 1930, Ghana is the first that comes to mind. (Glad to see you up on your current events of the past year)

Would somebody please tell Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Pau Gasol, and the hundreds of other foreign NBA players that their options are limited and to set down the basketball and start kicking around a soccer ball. Please also tell Albert Pujols to not bother with his contract extension. It's not worth his time. Can I get someone to stop by St. Louis Mills for me? I need to tell much of the Blues that they don't have options.

What exactly are ESPN, Fox Soccer Channel, Setanta, Univision, etc...doing investing hundreds of millions of dollars in soccer. It's a fad. Didn't they learn that with the $425 million invested in 2006 for a tournament played at the oppositie time of the day across the world?

I mean, who doesn't compare the St. Louis Steamers to the English Premier League or La Liga etc...

"Ain't no stoppin' us now..."

Would somebody please tell Cody Ellis and Christian Salecich they have too few options? Then they could pass that on to Kevin Lisch for me. Thanks.

What's that? $3 billion? It's just a fad. Oh the money is going up for tv rights and sponsorship deals for multiple leagues shown in the U.S.? It's the Hula Hoop I tell ya.

The next thing you'll tell me is a black man is President and women have the right to vote.

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"Did I hear a niner in there?". David Spade, "Tommy Boy."

Yes, when reflecting on historical soccer success and World Cup Soccer success since 1930, Ghana is the first that comes to mind. (Glad to see you up on your current events of the past year)

Would somebody please tell Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Pau Gasol, and the hundreds of other foreign NBA players that their options are limited and to set down the basketball and start kicking around a soccer ball. Please also tell Albert Pujols to not bother with his contract extension. It's not worth his time. Can I get someone to stop by St. Louis Mills for me? I need to tell much of the Blues that they don't have options.

What exactly are ESPN, Fox Soccer Channel, Setanta, Univision, etc...doing investing hundreds of millions of dollars in soccer. It's a fad. Didn't they learn that with the $425 million invested in 2006 for a tournament played at the oppositie time of the day across the world?

I mean, who doesn't compare the St. Louis Steamers to the English Premier League or La Liga etc...

"Ain't no stoppin' us now..."

Would somebody please tell Cody Ellis and Christian Salecich they have too few options? Then they could pass that on to Kevin Lisch for me. Thanks.

What's that? $3 billion? It's just a fad. Oh the money is going up for tv rights and sponsorship deals for multiple leagues shown in the U.S.? It's the Hula Hoop I tell ya.

The next thing you'll tell me is a black man is President and women have the right to vote.

I know we don't agree much, but this was pretty damn funny.

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"Did I hear a niner in there?". David Spade, "Tommy Boy."

Yes, when reflecting on historical soccer success and World Cup Soccer success since 1930, Ghana is the first that comes to mind. (Glad to see you up on your current events of the past year)

Would somebody please tell Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Pau Gasol, and the hundreds of other foreign NBA players that their options are limited and to set down the basketball and start kicking around a soccer ball. Please also tell Albert Pujols to not bother with his contract extension. It's not worth his time. Can I get someone to stop by St. Louis Mills for me? I need to tell much of the Blues that they don't have options.

What exactly are ESPN, Fox Soccer Channel, Setanta, Univision, etc...doing investing hundreds of millions of dollars in soccer. It's a fad. Didn't they learn that with the $425 million invested in 2006 for a tournament played at the oppositie time of the day across the world?

I mean, who doesn't compare the St. Louis Steamers to the English Premier League or La Liga etc...

"Ain't no stoppin' us now..."

Would somebody please tell Cody Ellis and Christian Salecich they have too few options? Then they could pass that on to Kevin Lisch for me. Thanks.

What's that? $3 billion? It's just a fad. Oh the money is going up for tv rights and sponsorship deals for multiple leagues shown in the U.S.? It's the Hula Hoop I tell ya.

The next thing you'll tell me is a black man is President and women have the right to vote.

Pro soccer will fail in St. Louis, it always has, always will.

Isn't that the topic?

You and slufanskip should invest in a St. Louis pro soccer team.

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Damn. Sounds like a Kevin Slaten rant. Irrelevant. Pro soccer will fail in St. Louis, time and time again. Isn't that the topic? You and slufanskip should invest in a St. Louis pro soccer team, you think it's going to boom!

I was thinking about it, but I have most of my money tied up in a wager on Albert Pujols age. The line is 34 and I took the over. I remember you saying he was older and with all the inside info you have on things like that .... I knew it was a good risk. The rest I told Coach K, I'd keep available in case he needs it for recruiting.
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I was thinking about it, but I have most of my money tied up in a wager on Albert Pujols age. The line is 34 and I took the over. I remember you saying he was older and with all the inside info you have on things like that .... I knew it was a good risk. The rest I told Coach K, I'd keep available in case he needs it for recruiting.

Doesn't it make you wonder why we haven't signed AP yet? He is > 34. It's a mess. RE: Coach K, what coach, team, players, & championships would you rather have had at SLU the last 20 yrs. Every player, every game... what team?

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I was thinking about it, but I have most of my money tied up in a wager on Albert Pujols age. The line is 34 and I took the over. I remember you saying he was older and with all the inside info you have on things like that .... I knew it was a good risk. The rest I told Coach K, I'd keep available in case he needs it for recruiting.

Coach K told me that AP is 42.

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