Scoring - Or Lack There Of

[Postcard]

Does it bother anyone that we were only able to put up 55 points against a crappy 0-8 team? I might add this is two points less than are horrible season average of 57 pts/game. That 57 pts a game currently puts us at about 320th or so of the 343 D1 teams.

Can we really expect this team to do much this year with this pathetic offensive output?

[Taj79]

Patience. Youth takes time. There is no immediate gratification. Our only offensive threat (if you'd call him that), Lisch, is starting slow. Every team knows who our lone ranger is. Someone has to step up and become a viable second option. The same thing is happening up I-70 in Dayton. Every team they see is coming out in a zone -- daring someone on the Flyers to be a hero but not inside to Chris Wright. yet its another typical Dayton start ---- nice record and even some Top Twenty Five votes. They got a nice win in beating Marquette (lat year it was Pitt, the year or so prior it was Purdue and Kentucky). Come conference time, who knows but if Dayton falls again, Gregory will get the heat. Don't know if he can survive it this year.

This is our version of biddy league. Us guys with kids sat through a whole bunch of 0 to 0 ties in soccer and basketball games with scores of 12 to 9 when our kids were 8 and 9. This is an extended version of that. I posted my thoughts in the Liberty thread. There are no immediate fixes. Short of getting five McDonald All-Americans on the floor and we won't do that.

[SLUDrew]

Patience. Youth takes time. There is no immediate gratification. Our only offensive threat (if you'd call him that), Lisch, is starting slow. Every team knows who our lone ranger is. Someone has to step up and become a viable second option. The same thing is happening up I-70 in Dayton. Every team they see is coming out in a zone -- daring someone on the Flyers to be a hero but not inside to Chris Wright. yet its another typical Dayton start ---- nice record and even some Top Twenty Five votes. They got a nice win in beating Marquette (lat year it was Pitt, the year or so prior it was Purdue and Kentucky). Come conference time, who knows but if Dayton falls again, Gregory will get the heat. Don't know if he can survive it this year.

This is our version of biddy league. Us guys with kids sat through a whole bunch of 0 to 0 ties in soccer and basketball games with scores of 12 to 9 when our kids were 8 and 9. This is an extended version of that. I posted my thoughts in the Liberty thread. There are no immediate fixes. Short of getting five McDonald All-Americans on the floor and we won't do that.

How is Tommie Liddell not a scoring threat? Kevin might be the best spot up shooter but if someone needs to create a shot on his own to win a game, I will take Tommie every time

I do agree with the rest of what you say, however. We need to have patience with these kids. We do throw a pretty nice collection of talent on the floor these days. In fact I would say we now have the most "talented" starting 5 we have had in a long time, but maturity, confidence and other intangibles need to catch up with the talent for this team to take off. I think this team will be much better at the end of the season than it is now.

[Postcard]

How is Tommie Liddell not a scoring threat? Kevin might be the best spot up shooter but if someone needs to create a shot on his own to win a game, I will take Tommie every time

I do agree with the rest of what you say, however. We need to have patience with these kids. We do throw a pretty nice collection of talent on the floor these days. In fact I would say we now have the most "talented" starting 5 we have had in a long time, but maturity, confidence and other intangibles need to catch up with the talent for this team to take off. I think this team will be much better at the end of the season than it is now.

I agree with what both of you have to say in regards to patience. I also agree that TL is a scoring threat. However, 57 pts/game against a weak schedule even with a young cast makes you wonder what they're capable of developing into. I thought we were done with that grind it out - scores in the 50's - style that was employed by Brad. I guess not.

[cheeseman]

I agree with what both of you have to say in regards to patience. I also agree that TL is a scoring threat. However, 57 pts/game against a weak schedule even with a young cast makes you wonder what they're capable of developing into. I thought we were done with that grind it out - scores in the 50's - style that was employed by Brad. I guess not.

It is hard to play tough defense and then play an open offensive style at the same time. RM is stressing the defense and letting the offense come around secondarily. Although, at the Billiken Club mtg he did say he knows we have to score to win. He also said that KM has two speeds - out of control and sort of out of control. His point is that KM thinks that he has to move the ball at breakneck speed all the time and is still learning that sometimes varying your speed based on the situation is better.

[GOSLU68]

Does it bother anyone that we were only able to put up 55 points against a crappy 0-8 team? I might add this is two points less than are horrible season average of 57 pts/game. That 57 pts a game currently puts us at about 320th or so of the 343 D1 teams.

Can we really expect this team to do much this year with this pathetic offensive output?

Do you ever pose questions where our team is obviously not the butt of the joke?

But to answer you, if you were at the game the Upstate team could easily be compared to the unorthodox style fighter who is matched with a skilled

boxer for an opponent. If you watch very long you understand the awkwardness of the crude off balance attack goes against what can be expected

by the more skilled fighter. Instead of fighting his fight he adapts so he doesn't get caught with something from out of nowhere. The skilled guy usually wins these but damages his reputation for having taken the chance with the fight.

The Bills did much better the second half after we calmed down. Fortunately, we did not catch one of those nights where the opponent could throw the ball up behind his back and have it go in. These guys played abit like Cleveland State used to when they used to play us. You had a Seven foot 3 inch center who could reach from one side of the lane to the other. Their high scorer 23 was so good no one could play with him and they just didn't. Whatever he decided to do he did by himself. This was a totally undisciplined team of hackers. We won by nearly 20 and Boston College beat them by only 12. We should not of scheduled them but the best outcome of the game was we had 5 players with 9 or more points, I think, Nice balance, if nothing else. If BT, KL, and TL made one more of their missed shots each it would have been no contest. Do black shoe teams always look unathletic and awkwrd?

[brianstl]

I think the fact that we only had three guards last night played a part in us only scoring 55 points.

[moytoy12]

Sorry guys, consider me completely unimpressed with RM's offense to date. USC Upstate, Samford, Sav. St., are BAD teams. Our offense shouldn't have any issues with these teams other than on certain nights the shots just won't fall. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

This years team is more talented than last years team and has 2 talented senior players that have been in the system for a year. We should be further along than last year's team. That isn't the case and it's disappointing.

The usual disclaimer applies (i'm not an RM hater, he was a great hire, etc.)

[brianstl]

Sorry guys, consider me completely unimpressed with RM's offense to date. USC Upstate, Samford, Sav. St., are BAD teams. Our offense shouldn't have any issues with these teams other than on certain nights the shots just won't fall. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

This years team is more talented than last years team and has 2 talented senior players that have been in the system for a year. We should be further along than last year's team. That isn't the case and it's disappointing.

The usual disclaimer applies (i'm not an RM hater, he was a great hire, etc.)

Hater

[isotope]

I am also not too impressed yet with the offense the Bills are running. Most of the ball motion is by passing along the perimeter followed by a pick by one of the big men 15 to 20 feet from the basket that does not really evolve into anything special. The one thing that I saw new this past game was the fake pick. The Bill player would fake the pick and then continue moving towards the hoop. This at least helped keep the defenders honest. It seems that until we get more drives into the interior, most of the offense will be out near the perimeter. This will forebode ill for us since our three-point shots are not falling to date.

[davidnark]

Sorry guys, consider me completely unimpressed with RM's offense to date. USC Upstate, Samford, Sav. St., are BAD teams. Our offense shouldn't have any issues with these teams other than on certain nights the shots just won't fall. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

This years team is more talented than last years team and has 2 talented senior players that have been in the system for a year. We should be further along than last year's team. That isn't the case and it's disappointing.

The usual disclaimer applies (i'm not an RM hater, he was a great hire, etc.)

The offense is not going to put up big numbers unless and until Kevin Lisch consistently finds his shot. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing, but when I watch this year's team I don't necessarily find myself viewing Kevin or Tommie as our best offensive options at all times as I typically did in year's past. One positive thing I saw offensively in the last two games was the conscious effort to find the post man on offense, and the ability of the post man to create a bucket when he receive it. Thompson did it 4 different times 2 games ago (and once this game), and Willie did it 4 different times this game. Throw in a couple of interior buckets by Conklin, and I think we have the early makings of a legitimate offensive presence in the post.

[moytoy12]

The offense is not going to put up big numbers unless and until Kevin Lisch consistently finds his shot. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing, but when I watch this year's team I don't necessarily find myself viewing Kevin or Tommie as our best offensive options at all times as I typically did in year's past. One positive thing I saw offensively in the last two games was the conscious effort to find the post man on offense, and the ability of the post man to create a bucket when he receive it. Thompson did it 4 different times 2 games ago (and once this game), and Willie did it 4 different times this game. Throw in a couple of interior buckets by Conklin, and I think we have the early makings of a legitimate offensive presence in the post.

Fair points. I'll be the first to admit that some of the finer points of the game are lost on me and I might not notice all the positive things going on.

[moytoy12]

Hater

You know me, Cpt. Negative.

[GoBills]

When you only give up 38 points, scoring 55 is just fine, especially playing short-handed. Get the W and move on.

[moytoy12]

When you only give up 38 points, scoring 55 is just fine, especially playing short-handed. Get the W and move on.

It was against USC Upstate, the W is expected. It's not like this was a conference game on the road or something, it was a game against one of the worst teams in D-1.

[billiken_roy]

The offense is not going to put up big numbers unless and until Kevin Lisch consistently finds his shot. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing, but when I watch this year's team I don't necessarily find myself viewing Kevin or Tommie as our best offensive options at all times as I typically did in year's past. One positive thing I saw offensively in the last two games was the conscious effort to find the post man on offense, and the ability of the post man to create a bucket when he receive it. Thompson did it 4 different times 2 games ago (and once this game), and Willie did it 4 different times this game. Throw in a couple of interior buckets by Conklin, and I think we have the early makings of a legitimate offensive presence in the post.

yes it is concerning that both kevin and tommie appear to be worse players today than they were as sophomores.

[davidnark]

yes it is concerning that both kevin and tommie appear to be worse players today than they were as sophomores.

I actually think Tommie is a way better player than he was two years ago. He may not score more points, but Tommie now does so many good things on the basketball court that don't involve scoring. Lisch just needs to find his shot; we all forget, but he has gone through serious shooting slumps every year of his collegiate career.

I also speculate the biggest difference offensively between both players their freshmen/sophomore year and their junior/senior year is the lack of Ian in the middle. Ian drew a lot of attention and double-teams, which allowed those two a lot more space and freedom.

[kshoe]

I also speculate the biggest difference offensively between both players their freshmen/sophomore year and their junior/senior year is the lack of Ian in the middle. Ian drew a lot of attention and double-teams, which allowed those two a lot more space and freedom.

That can't be! All the experts on this board thought Ian sucked.

[cheeseman]

That can't be! All the experts on this board thought Ian sucked.

I am not sure people thought Ian sucked - what disappointed me about Ian his senior year was that he did not take it to the next level hence his being passed over in the draft. Much is expected from those who have been given so much - in other words, we built our offense around Ian and his senior year was not that great - even St. Brad benched him for a game from the starting line up.

[Westy03]

I am not sure people thought Ian sucked - what disappointed me about Ian his senior year was that he did not take it to the next level hence his being passed over in the draft. Much is expected from those who have been given so much - in other words, we built our offense around Ian and his senior year was not that great - even St. Brad benched him for a game from the starting line up.

He may have sucked his senior year but he still got double teamed every time he touched the ball. He also had some monster games in the second half of the year.

[billiken_roy]

I actually think Tommie is a way better player than he was two years ago. He may not score more points, but Tommie now does so many good things on the basketball court that don't involve scoring. Lisch just needs to find his shot; we all forget, but he has gone through serious shooting slumps every year of his collegiate career.

I also speculate the biggest difference offensively between both players their freshmen/sophomore year and their junior/senior year is the lack of Ian in the middle. Ian drew a lot of attention and double-teams, which allowed those two a lot more space and freedom.

david, come on after a full year and a month of watching rickma offense, you dont think the problem is the rickma offense? what about the schemes and plays you've seen makes you think this is better offense than anything we saw from either soderberg or romar offensively?

if your answer is we need more mcdonalds all americans to make this work, well my guess is that postcard could devise offenses that would work with extreme talent. but win more than you lose with john redden as the point guard, or chris sloan as your power forward. if you can do that, AND you bring in the next andrew bogut and the next andre miller, now you've accomplished something.

i remember our esteemed billikens.com member, 3 star recruit, once said about soderberg as an offensive coach, "i think he is offensively retarded". rickma is making soderberg look like an offensive genius these days.

[NashvilleBilliken]

i remember our esteemed billikens.com member, 3 star recruit, once said about soderberg as an offensive coach, "i think he is offensively retarded". rickma is making soderberg look like an offensive genius these days.

I disagree with this. Soderberg's offense sucked, but I think Rick's is slightly better. I'd always look at Soderberg's teams and just not have a clue what they were trying to do offensively. I can see some actual plays in Rick's offense. That being said, they both suck and I'm completely unimpressed with the current offense. My only thought is that he hasn't opened it up at all as they are still learning. An example would be the "fake" pick. That wasn't something we saw last year or the beginning of this year. They started implementing that 2 games ago, I think. I can only hope that they continue to do that. I think we are seeing some good plays for Willie and an effort to get it to the paint. But the whole pass it around the perimeter every time down the court gets old and is boring.

[billiken_roy]

nashville i think what you are trying to say that to argue who sucks more is kind of dumb if i am reading between the lines correctly then i will agree that is a good point.

the aspect that makes me the most crazy is that the screens set arent used effectively by ANY of the billikens. they dribble five feet around them, they dribble in the opposite direction of the screen, they dribble once and pick up, etc.

[Postcard]

Do you ever pose questions where our team is obviously not the butt of the joke?

But to answer you, if you were at the game the Upstate team could easily be compared to the unorthodox style fighter who is matched with a skilled

boxer for an opponent. If you watch very long you understand the awkwardness of the crude off balance attack goes against what can be expected

by the more skilled fighter. Instead of fighting his fight he adapts so he doesn't get caught with something from out of nowhere. The skilled guy usually wins these but damages his reputation for having taken the chance with the fight.

The Bills did much better the second half after we calmed down. Fortunately, we did not catch one of those nights where the opponent could throw the ball up behind his back and have it go in. These guys played abit like Cleveland State used to when they used to play us. You had a Seven foot 3 inch center who could reach from one side of the lane to the other. Their high scorer 23 was so good no one could play with him and they just didn't. Whatever he decided to do he did by himself. This was a totally undisciplined team of hackers. We won by nearly 20 and Boston College beat them by only 12. We should not of scheduled them but the best outcome of the game was we had 5 players with 9 or more points, I think, Nice balance, if nothing else. If BT, KL, and TL made one more of their missed shots each it would have been no contest. Do black shoe teams always look unathletic and awkwrd?

Point out where I have ever done this. I asked a serious question and thankfully got some serious responses. Your answer might possibly explain why they struggled against one team(an 0-8 team at that) but doesn't explain why they've had problems the rest of the year. Fortunately, some of the posters on here that are more well versed with this team and offense offered up some good explanations as to why the team might be struggling to score. I thank them for that. To you and your negative attitude I say Have a Merry Christmas.

yes it is concerning that both kevin and tommie appear to be worse players today than they were as sophomores.

I don't know about worse but I would agree that they're not really better. Part of this can be explained by them having to get use to a new coach and system half way through their careers but I don't think it's out of line that many of us thought they would both be 17+ pt scorers their senior years.

[davidnark]

david, come on after a full year and a month of watching rickma offense, you dont think the problem is the rickma offense? what about the schemes and plays you've seen makes you think this is better offense than anything we saw from either soderberg or romar offensively?

I don't know if this offense is currently any better or worse than the prior two. What I do know is that Kevin Lisch is getting A LOT of open shots in Majerus's current offense and is missing A LOT of open shots. I don't blame that on Rick. I also don't know how you can compare the offenses from Brad's last two seasons against Rick's first two when Rick didn't have the benefit of SLU's best offensive big man in 15 years.