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I never claimed you were the first. Nor do you have to be the first. Regardless, you always try to incite a mob. Your not being first to raise a complaint about the original poster's tone or method does not make me wrong. As for my "softness" of heart, I know for a lead-pipe-cold-hard fact that you're wrong about aj_arete. He IS a Billikens fan, but you just hate that he's a Mizzou fan also. I suspect that also colors your feelings about me: you can't understand how I can be a fan of both programs, and you think that makes me "soft on crime," as if being a Missouri fan is criminal. And whether you or anyone else refers to Missouri in a derogatory manner doesn't really bother me, but I do think it's gotten old. Sorry, but I really don't know anything about the MoStateBears poster you're referring to, as I was rarely on the board during that time. You're not being fair to hold any of that against me. My point is that you're too cynical or close-minded — in your mind that means you're "good" at detecting "frauds" right from the start — and it makes things tense in this online community. I think there's something to be said for giving people the benefit of the doubt. But you like to throw out a lot of mud and sometimes it sticks. Anyway, someone asked if this new poster's ip address has been used before, but it has not. It's unlikely that he is someone who's been banned and is trying to sneak back to the board. Keep "calling out" posters who you suspect is masquerading as a Billikens fan, but if I think you're wrong, then I'm going to keep calling you out as a mob-encouraging, rabble-rousing cyber-bully.

I don't feel strongly enough to tally specific results, but I believe he's mentioned his suspicions about new posters more than once when the poster merely had a different viewpoint. Most likely he drove the poster away and felt vindicated. ACE is little more than a cyber-bully.

You are completely missing the point again. There is nothing wrong with being a Mizzou fan and nothing wrong with being a fan of both. I know you are hyper-sensitive about that. Your basketball-related posts on those topics have been fair. But even you would have to admit that the biggest trolls on this board have been Mizzou fans. For YEARS, you coddled some of those folks. There were even times when you would chastise me and defend the likes of billiphan/postcard/powerballer. I was proven to be right. Rather than do the honorable thing and admit that you were wrong and perhaps even apologize to me... instead you dig in your heels. If we followed your judgement on the matter, billiphan, postcard, powerballer, etc. they would still be running around. Since those trolls have been eliminated, the board has been a better place. You should be thanking me for helping to improve the board. Instead, in your post's conclusion you sling mud in my direction with absolutely no facts to back it up.

It's a good thing you weren't around during the MoStateBears stuff. While many were screaming that it was a troll, you likely would have viewed him as some sort of misunderstood victim. Here is a good history lesson for you - http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22449

And another - http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22447

You'll notice that the "mob" as you called it, has become quite good at rooting at troublemakers... better than you ever were. As I stated in my previous post, I did back up a little bit about this new poster. I said that I will take a wait and see approach. If there is a problem, I am confident "the mob" will correctly take care of it. I don't even need to say anything and based on your track record, probably best that you don't get involved. I hope my initial instict was off and if it is, I will admit I was wrong - something you seem incapable of.

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Interesting fact: SLU had the 9th greatest increase in attendance in the country from 2011 to 2012. 7757 per game in 2012, 6299 per gam in 2011, 1458 more fans per game in 2012. I expect another similar increase this season, especially if we are ranked in the preseason opinion polls.

Skip is correct that the vast majority of sports teams have a ton of front-running fans.

This is really the most important point in the thread. Strong evidence that the fans responded to the team's success last year and an encouraging sign that they will likely continue to in the upcoming season after coming off a trip to the Big Dance. If some people want to fret about it, have at it. We're all entitled to our opinions. ;)

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I agree with this sentiment, and as MB73 touched on in his earlier post, there is a real issue for the NFL with people staying at home rather than attending games. But I don't think we will see that ever be an issue with Billiken games, or college basketball in general. The overall experience is completely different as well as the cost.

I agree regarding the NFL. Unless you want to just go down there to get drunk or your team is top notch, its a hard sell to a lot of people.

I do think the NCAA may be feeling a little of the "I'd rather watch on t.v." deal with the NCAA tourney. Many of the first round sites weren't sold out, the price is not cheap ($75-$85 per session), the timeouts are too long and unless you have a team in the game an argument could be made that you're better off watching every game at home rather than 1/4 of the games live in the arena.

For example, I chose to give away my Sweet 16 seats to the St. Louis regional because I thought both games would be boring (I was wrong and they were both close) and I wanted to see the UK/Indiana game at the same time. Of course my wife wasn't too thrilled with another night with both kids after I went to Columbus for a few days and that may have factored into it, but still you get the point.

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I agree regarding the NFL. Unless you want to just go down there to get drunk or your team is top notch, its a hard sell to a lot of people.

I do think the NCAA may be feeling a little of the "I'd rather watch on t.v." deal with the NCAA tourney. Many of the first round sites weren't sold out, the price is not cheap ($75-$85 per session), the timeouts are too long and unless you have a team in the game an argument could be made that you're better off watching every game at home rather than 1/4 of the games live in the arena.

For example, I chose to give away my Sweet 16 seats to the St. Louis regional because I thought both games would be boring (I was wrong and they were both close) and I wanted to see the UK/Indiana game at the same time. Of course my wife wasn't too thrilled with another night with both kids after I went to Columbus for a few days and that may have factored into it, but still you get the point.

I can definitely see your point on NCAA tourney games and that does seem to be a concern as well. To be honest, I was speaking more towards regular season games and hometown crowds.

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I can definitely see your point on NCAA tourney games and that does seem to be a concern as well. To be honest, I was speaking more towards regular season games and hometown crowds.

I agree on the hometown crowd thing.

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You are completely missing the point again. There is nothing wrong with being a Mizzou fan and nothing wrong with being a fan of both. I know you are hyper-sensitive about that. Your basketball-related posts on those topics have been fair. But even you would have to admit that the biggest trolls on this board have been Mizzou fans. For YEARS, you coddled some of those folks. There were even times when you would chastise me and defend the likes of billiphan/postcard/powerballer. I was proven to be right. Rather than do the honorable thing and admit that you were wrong and perhaps even apologize to me... instead you dig in your heels. If we followed your judgement on the matter, billiphan, postcard, powerballer, etc. they would still be running around. Since those trolls have been eliminated, the board has been a better place. You should be thanking me for helping to improve the board. Instead, in your post's conclusion you sling mud in my direction with absolutely no facts to back it up.

It's a good thing you weren't around during the MoStateBears stuff. While many were screaming that it was a troll, you likely would have viewed him as some sort of misunderstood victim. Here is a good history lesson for you - http://www.billikens...showtopic=22449

And another - http://www.billikens...showtopic=22447

You'll notice that the "mob" as you called it, has become quite good at rooting at troublemakers... better than you ever were. As I stated in my previous post, I did back up a little bit about this new poster. I said that I will take a wait and see approach. If there is a problem, I am confident "the mob" will correctly take care of it. I don't even need to say anything and based on your track record, probably best that you don't get involved. I hope my initial instict was off and if it is, I will admit I was wrong - something you seem incapable of.

You have a tendency to say (type) something until it takes on a legendary status that no one can deny the truth of. Thus, if ACE says it, it MUST be true. I must really be hyper-sensitive about Mizzou fans, since you say I am, even though I only once protested that using "SPUMAC" seems to be played out after about seven years and two coaches. Since you say you helped improved the board — implying that I do nothing for the board despite being a moderator (which I didn't lobby for) — I guess you did, despite my opinion that your incessant witch hunts detract from it. You've ALREADY be proven wrong, but now you'll "wait and see." And I don't believe that you "hope" your initial instinct about Billiken Fan Forever is wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be continuing to defend your attack and rub my nose in something that happened about seven or eight years ago. Good thing I have no need to redeem myself in your eyes, because there's no way I ever could (if it were necessary).

What, exactly, makes a poster a "troll"? If the forum is designed to facilitate discussion, and some posters have an unpopular opinion or tone, does that mean that they should be silenced? I think that, in some cases, Steve placated you guys in the apparent majority by banning certain posters who were getting under their skin while others of us were willing to tackle their opinions with reason. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. My choice of methodology doesn't make me soft or weak just because you get rankled.

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You cannot just take a few simple averages and make a decision as to whether the 2011-2012 televised home games affected attendance.

You would have to take into consideration the quality of the opponent, the rivalries, the day or night of the week and the time of the game, the weather, the win streak enthusiasm (or not), whether the game was televised with HD or just regular TV, etc.

Clearly, someday when all the home games are ALL on HD, it will affect SLU attendance, the same as the NFL and others are finding.

HD is fantastic to watch, replays, slow motion, explanations of injuries and circumstances from the announcers, no driving downtown, parking & walking in bad weather, no standing in line and paying up the ass for food and beverages, no waiting in line to piss.

Marketing 101: Dr. Bonwich would have agreed.

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If "billiken fan forever" isn't a troll who is here just to stir up the hornet's nest, then he sure looks like one. He registers on July 10th, then on July 12th starts a new thread critical of the coach and the program right after our most successful season in 14 years. He is quickly called out and on July 15th he starts another new thread critical of the program. In this second thread he starts by saying "I'm back for my 2nd post....I wasn't schooled like someone said." He states incorrect facts and claims we had no sellouts last season, which is clearly false. Anyone who attended the Billiken Blizzard game vs Xavier could see that game was a sellout.

Any of us could go on UDpride.com and make a new account called "No1FlyerFan4Life" and only post when they lose, talking about how much the team sucks, certain players should be cut, they're embarrassing, they're a disgrace, they'll never be as good as Xavier, ect. Basically just pissing people off. It is also trivially easy to get a new IP address to use on your troll account.

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If "billiken fan forever" isn't a troll who is here just to stir up the hornet's nest, then he sure looks like one. He registers on July 10th, then on July 12th starts a new thread critical of the coach and the program right after our most successful season in 14 years. He is quickly called out and on July 15th he starts another new thread critical of the program. In this second thread he starts by saying "I'm back for my 2nd post....I wasn't schooled like someone said." He states incorrect facts and claims we had no sellouts last season, which is clearly false. Anyone who attended the Billiken Blizzard game vs Xavier could see that game was a sellout.

Any of us could go on UDpride.com and make a new account called "No1FlyerFan4Life" and only post when they lose, talking about how much the team sucks, certain players should be cut, they're embarrassing, they're a disgrace, they'll never be as good as Xavier, ect. Basically just pissing people off. It is also trivially easy to get a new IP address to use on your troll account.

CIRCUMSTANTIAL! You haven't proven anything other than that you (and others) are paranoid. And July 15 is not "right after" the season.
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You cannot just take a few simple averages and make a decision as to whether the 2011-2012 televised home games affected attendance.

You would have to take into consideration the quality of the opponent, the rivalries, the day or night of the week and the time of the game, the weather, the win streak enthusiasm (or not), whether the game was televised with HD or just regular TV, etc.

Clearly, someday when all the home games are ALL on HD, it will affect SLU attendance, the same as the NFL and others are finding.

HD is fantastic to watch, replays, slow motion, explanations of injuries and circumstances from the announcers, no driving downtown, parking & walking in bad weather, no standing in line and paying up the ass for food and beverages, no waiting in line to piss.

Marketing 101: Dr. Bonwich would have agreed.

Not really disagreeing with you that it might be a factor in the future. Mostly, I was just pointing out that it doesn't appear that it truly affected our attendance this past season. Perhaps it will be a factor if, in the future, all home games are televised and in HD. But we will need to wait and see. However, I just don't think that we will necessarily see that occur, at least in the same way we see it occur with the NFL. A local college basketball game has several different factors than a pro football game does. Some of these factors are:

-Cost (BIG factor!)

-Crowd size

-Time spent at event (Games usually take only 2 hours or so. NFL games typically span 3+ hours.)

-When games are played (Typically, regular season basketball games occur twice a week. NFL games are usually exclusively on Sunday and are 'event' TV on Sunday.)

-Local support (Alumni, students and local residents feel more compelled to go to a game to offer financial and emotional support to the local collegiate team. This is especially true when team are successful.)

-The experience (Fans have found that they don't seem to miss much by not attending NFL games, and actually prefer to watch on TV. However, attending a college basketball game is a much better experience than watching on TV. This also holds true with other sports, namely baseball and hockey.)

Also, when it comes down to stats for other sports attendance, MLB is actually up about 8% this year and seems to consistently get better each season. The NHL has seen its attendance either stay steady or go up over the past 7 seasons. College football has not seen any drop in attendance recently, and in fact set a record last year in total attendance, and has set high attendance marks 5 of the past 6 seasons. Even the MLS has seen increases in attendance each season, and set a record in 2011!

As for college basketball, there was actually an uptick in NCAA tournament attendance from the previous year (sorry, kshoe), as there were 26,506 more fans for an average of 736 more per tourney game over 2011. As for the season, 166,318 more attended regular season home games than 2011. However, since there were more games and teams than the previous season, this actually created a net loss of 31 per game, which is quite negligible, especially when considering new teams joining D-I were smaller schools with low attendance anyway.

So, to be honest, no other major sporting event in the US, other than the NFL, has seen an actual drop in attendance. As I stated earlier, it remains to be seen how SLU's attendance will be affected with more HD-TV exposure in the future. But, this seems to be mostly, if not solely, an NFL problem right now. And that makes sense, as the NFL plays more towards the TV audience than any other sport out there.

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You have a tendency to say (type) something until it takes on a legendary status that no one can deny the truth of. Thus, if ACE says it, it MUST be true. I must really be hyper-sensitive about Mizzou fans, since you say I am, even though I only once protested that using "SPUMAC" seems to be played out after about seven years and two coaches. Since you say you helped improved the board — implying that I do nothing for the board despite being a moderator (which I didn't lobby for) — I guess you did, despite my opinion that your incessant witch hunts detract from it. You've ALREADY be proven wrong, but now you'll "wait and see." And I don't believe that you "hope" your initial instinct about Billiken Fan Forever is wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be continuing to defend your attack and rub my nose in something that happened about seven or eight years ago. Good thing I have no need to redeem myself in your eyes, because there's no way I ever could (if it were necessary).

What, exactly, makes a poster a "troll"? If the forum is designed to facilitate discussion, and some posters have an unpopular opinion or tone, does that mean that they should be silenced? I think that, in some cases, Steve placated you guys in the apparent majority by banning certain posters who were getting under their skin while others of us were willing to tackle their opinions with reason. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. My choice of methodology doesn't make me soft or weak just because you get rankled.

You are a moderator and you don't even know what a troll is! :rolleyes: That would explain why you could never recognize one. That's ok, don't worry about it. As the MoState Bears incident proved, the board collectively can do a nice job of rooting out the trolls without you. Than you jimbo! It's really quite simple, if somebody is so bad that they have been banned previously and then tries to sneak back in, that would be a troll. Billiphan - Postcard or some of his sidekicks - powerballer would be examples. Despite the fact that their sole purpose was to be disruptive and they had been banned previously and the overwhelming majority of posters on the board wanted them gone, you were conned into believing that they were simply misunderstood. You even defended them at times!

NOBODY IS CALLING FOR UNPOPULAR OPINIONS TO BE SILENCED. There are disagreements all the time on the board - billikenroy, MB73, skip, kshoe, moytoy, myself and most people here have been involved with spirited debates and freely expressed differences of opinion. That's the fun of a message board.

Another thing you are wrong about, the postcard/billiphan stuff was not "seven or eight years ago," he was still around as recently as 2 years ago and even more recently this spring when he reappeared as MoStatefan. Two simple questions - Did you fail to recognize that postcard was a previously banned poster? Is the board better without billiphan/postcard/MoState fan or should somebody like this, who the majority of members of the board believe is solely on the board to be disruptive, be allowed to stay?

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CIRCUMSTANTIAL! You haven't proven anything other than that you (and others) are paranoid. And July 15 is not "right after" the season.

You also haven't "proven" anything. I seem to recall you suggesting I was "paranoid" for believing postcard had been previously banned. I would suggest you also take a wait and see approach.

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If "billiken fan forever" isn't a troll who is here just to stir up the hornet's nest, then he sure looks like one. He registers on July 10th, then on July 12th starts a new thread critical of the coach and the program right after our most successful season in 14 years. He is quickly called out and on July 15th he starts another new thread critical of the program. In this second thread he starts by saying "I'm back for my 2nd post....I wasn't schooled like someone said." He states incorrect facts and claims we had no sellouts last season, which is clearly false. Anyone who attended the Billiken Blizzard game vs Xavier could see that game was a sellout.

Any of us could go on UDpride.com and make a new account called "No1FlyerFan4Life" and only post when they lose, talking about how much the team sucks, certain players should be cut, they're embarrassing, they're a disgrace, they'll never be as good as Xavier, ect. Basically just pissing people off. It is also trivially easy to get a new IP address to use on your troll account.

That's an important point. Also, the Dayton game drew 10,414, the Xavier game drew 10,441, so I think we can say that two of our last four games were sellouts.

Also, in his first post he says - "There must be somebody "local" that RM deems worthy of giving a chance." There have been several local players RM deemed worthy of "giving a chance" by offering scholarships - Griffey, Suggs and Biedschied are just a few I'm aware of. IF he is not a troll, at the very least, he has been factually inaccurate in his first two posts.

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Also, in his first post he says - "There must be somebody "local" that RM deems worthy of giving a chance." There have been several local players RM deemed worthy of "giving a chance" by offering scholarships - Griffey, Suggs and Biedschied are just a few I'm aware of. IF he is not a troll, at the very least, he has been factually inaccurate in his first two posts.

I'm sure this has been pointed out already but Femi John would have been a senior or redshirt junior on this past seasons team had he not been injured.

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Potential circumstantial evidence: ever notice that when BFF posts, he lobs the first hand grenade and then seems to disapper, watching guys like ACE, Absurd Bills Fan, and others turn on each other? Now, I don't want to be considered paranoid but when it walks, like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck ..... it could be a troll in duck's camouflage! Just sayin .......

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