Jump to content

VCU joining in 2013 - CBSSPORTS reports


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 166
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

The thought that Butler is "sliding" is absurd. They're recruiting at a higher level than they ever have. They've be back in the top 25 when they join the league.

I heard Brad Stevens is not actually 35 years old. Probably closer to 42 or 43. Reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I heard Brad Stevens is not actually 35 years old. Probably closer to 42 or 43. Reality.

OMG! did the A-10 know this before they agreed to take Butler?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thought that Butler is "sliding" is absurd. They're recruiting at a higher level than they ever have. They've be back in the top 25 when they join the league.

Especially because of the "more than a billion dollars" of PR they got from making the Final Fours. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark my words, when Butler and VCU lose their coaches, 1-2 yrs later they will be mediocre programs, middle of the pack in the A-10. Butler was

Maybe one will get past this, some do, I cited Xavier as an exception, and Gonzaga, a few others, some Universities have a strong committment from their President. But mostly, the mid major conference teams (Pistol) flop after they have a good run with a great coach who leaves.

MB. Don't most college programs ALL flop for awhile after they lose their good coach?? Bill Self built the Illini into a real power (only he didn't stick around to cut down the NCAA Tourney Finals nets but left all the pieces in place for Bruce Weber - who completely flopped and let that program run down. Mizzou flopped after Norm got pushed out with both Quin and Anderson. Arkansas flopped after Nolan Richardson left. Tom Crean might finally be getting Indiana close, but IU has never been the same since Bobby Knight left. T A&M flopped abit when Gillespie left and certainly when Turgeon left. G'Towne flopped when John Thompson, Sr. left. Except for BCS schools like N. Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas and certain mid-majors like Gonzaga and X, most ALL programs flop.

My point: your "predictions" do no more than state the obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MB. Don't most college programs ALL flop for awhile after they lose their good coach?? Bill Self built the Illini into a real power (only he didn't stick around to cut down the NCAA Tourney Finals nets but left all the pieces in place for Bruce Weber - who completely flopped and let that program run down. Mizzou flopped after Norm got pushed out with both Quin and Anderson. Arkansas flopped after Nolan Richardson left. Tom Crean might finally be getting Indiana close, but IU has never been the same since Bobby Knight left. T A&M flopped abit when Gillespie left and certainly when Turgeon left. G'Towne flopped when John Thompson, Sr. left. Except for BCS schools like N. Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas and certain mid-majors like Gonzaga and X, most ALL programs flop.

My point: your "predictions" do no more than state the obvious.

I do not disagree.

If you read one of my original posts on this godforsaken thread, I state that the mid majors and smaller conference teams usually cannot recover, but the power conferences with elite history can.

I used the example that UCLA has had problems but they still can get Jabbar on the phone and bring in recruits. Other powers have had bad coaches but recovered because of their superior infrastructure, long tradition, and access to big dollars and super star player NBA alumni support.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not disagree. If you read one of my original posts on this godforsaken thread, I state that the mid majors and smaller conference teams usually cannot recover, but the power conferences with elite history can. I used the example that UCLA has had problems but they still can get Jabbar on the phone and bring in recruits. Other powers have had bad coaches but recovered because of their superior infrastructure, long tradition, and access to big dollars and super star player NBA alumni support.

recruiting violation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This coming from a man who said Pujols (.214) will continure to hit .329 until 2021 and is worth $ 254M. I told you he is 3+ yrs older than the 32 he claims, and is pratically "shot"... another 2-3 yrs, best case, sliding fast.

Mark my words, when Butler and VCU lose their coaches, 1-2 yrs later they will be mediocre programs, middle of the pack in the A-10. Butler was fortunate with Heyward and that guard (?) and some others that exceeded expectations, and is already starting to slide, RPI 116 this yr, recruits know coach will move on as soon as his dream job is open ('Cuse? Duke? NC?).

Good stats, bizzle, I realized that Charlotte is the weak link but Temple is proven in a tougher conferernce and has a deep tradition. I am saying that Charlotte is OK and the stats will be irrelevant since Butler and VCU will sink after their recent runs and their coaches get the jobs they want elsewhere. Yes, Butler-VCU are adequate replacements, about as good as can be hoped. I just am not so excited as many are on this board.

Maybe one will get past this, some do, I cited Xavier as an exception, and Gonzaga, a few others, some Universities have a strong committment from their President. But mostly, the mid major conference teams (Pistol) flop after they have a good run with a great coach who leaves.

Many posters had observed that Butler benefited greatly from the Horizon environment, but bizzle waits for me to comment, then unleases 100 hours of research and a 5,000 word mush of statistics that are mostly irrelevant. Jealous loon. Get a life. It is not that big a deal. I cannot understand all of the ruckus.

I won't bite on the Pujols thing, calling me a 'Jealous loon', whatever that means, or telling me to 'get a life'.

I mostly just feel like you are being short-sighted and lacking context when you make the blanket statement that both VCU and Butler are just the beneficiary of good coaches and that once they leave, they will most likely slip into mediocrity, especially as they are joining the A-10. The reason I think your statement lacks context is I think you aren't looking at the individual situations, instead tryitng to shoehorn them into a certain narrative. Let me try to explain without being snarky or a d!ck. I promise, I will try. :)

For Butler, their past four head coaches (Collier, Matta, Lickliter, Stevens) were all first-time head coaches. They never were head coaches anywhere before taking over the reigns at Butler. Matta and Lickliter were assistants under Collier, and Stevens was an assistant under Lickliter. Everytime one moved on, an assistant took over and found even greater success than his predecessor. There is very much a sense of continuity with the Butler program, as you can trace the current coaching staff back to the late 80s when Collier took over (and more so since Collier is currently the AD.) As for Stevens, he has a contract good until 2021 (he extended it a couple of years ago) that has a seven figure buyout clause factored into it, and has expressed his desire to stay. But, if he left, the precedent has been set at Butler that they will be able to move on.

For VCU, they have gone about it a little differently from Butler, but there are still similarities. Their past three head coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart) were all first-timers. Capel was as assistant at VCU before taking over. When he left for Oklahoma, they hired Grant, who was an assistant at Florida. When he left for Alabama, they hired Smart, who was also an assistant at Florida. In VCU's case, they went after young, black assistants to be the head coach. But, as with Bulter, each new head coach did better that his predecessor, while also utilizing the pieces left in place from the previous coach (Grant left Smart with Joey Rodriguez, Jamie Skeen (who had already transferred from WF) and Bradford Burgess, all key components of the Final Four team.) Like Stevens, Smart also has a long-term deal. His deal pays him $1.2 mill a year prior to performance bonuses, so like Stevens, he would need to get PAID to bolt (and he already turned down NC State and Illinois the past couple of seasons.)

Basically, I see two schools that have a definitive plan in place for long-term success of their basketball programs. They have also shown their current coaches long-term committments both financially (with their current contracts) and competitively (by moving up to the A-10.) That has to resonate with both Shaka and Stevens, but even if they decide to leave for a 'dream job' (though Shaka already turned down a possible 'dream job' in Illinois), then their respective track records show that they will most likely be able to fill the job admirably. What I don't see are programs that are flashes in the pan that will slip back to mediocrity once their currrent coaches are gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I won't bite on the Pujols thing, calling me a 'Jealous loon', whatever that means, or telling me to 'get a life'.

I mostly just feel like you are being short-sighted and lacking context when you make the blanket statement that both VCU and Butler are just the beneficiary of good coaches and that once they leave, they will most likely slip into mediocrity, especially as they are joining the A-10. The reason I think your statement lacks context is I think you aren't looking at the individual situations, instead tryitng to shoehorn them into a certain narrative. Let me try to explain without being snarky or a d!ck. I promise, I will try. :)

For Butler, their past four head coaches (Collier, Matta, Lickliter, Stevens) were all first-time head coaches. They never were head coaches anywhere before taking over the reigns at Butler. Matta and Lickliter were assistants under Collier, and Stevens was an assistant under Lickliter. Everytime one moved on, an assistant took over and found even greater success than his predecessor. There is very much a sense of continuity with the Butler program, as you can trace the current coaching staff back to the late 80s when Collier took over (and more so since Collier is currently the AD.) As for Stevens, he has a contract good until 2021 (he extended it a couple of years ago) that has a seven figure buyout clause factored into it, and has expressed his desire to stay. But, if he left, the precedent has been set at Butler that they will be able to move on.

For VCU, they have gone about it a little differently from Butler, but there are still similarities. Their past three head coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart) were all first-timers. Capel was as assistant at VCU before taking over. When he left for Oklahoma, they hired Grant, who was an assistant at Florida. When he left for Alabama, they hired Smart, who was also an assistant at Florida. In VCU's case, they went after young, black assistants to be the head coach. But, as with Bulter, each new head coach did better that his predecessor, while also utilizing the pieces left in place from the previous coach (Grant left Smart with Joey Rodriguez, Jamie Skeen (who had already transferred from WF) and Bradford Burgess, all key components of the Final Four team.) Like Stevens, Smart also has a long-term deal. His deal pays him $1.2 mill a year prior to performance bonuses, so like Stevens, he would need to get PAID to bolt (and he already turned down NC State and Illinois the past couple of seasons.)

Basically, I see two schools that have a definitive plan in place for long-term success of their basketball programs. They have also shown their current coaches long-term committments both financially (with their current contracts) and competitively (by moving up to the A-10.) That has to resonate with both Shaka and Stevens, but even if they decide to leave for a 'dream job' (though Shaka already turned down a possible 'dream job' in Illinois), then their respective track records show that they will most likely be able to fill the job admirably. What I don't see are programs that are flashes in the pan that will slip back to mediocrity once their currrent coaches are gone.

You sir, are a communist... or a socialist... or whatver kind of witch hunt is now in vogue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Billikens fans,

VCU fan here. This is certainly an interesting discussion and I'm a bit surprised at the superiority complex it seems some have over the new additions. On the other hand it is nice to see there are some very well-informed posters on here as well who realize the quality of the incoming programs.

I do remember facing off against St. Louis in the CBI final in 2010 and while you were young I could tell even then that you were extremely talented and had a bright future. I remembered Kwamain Mitchell and Willie Reed as sophomores being very impressive in particular. I look forward to facing off against St. Louis and the rest of the A-10 this upcoming season.

It's an interesting discussion here about the merits of good teams in mid-major conferences and how they translate to higher-level conferences like the A-10. I'll make my case for VCU being a bit more than a flash in the pan. VCU is 16-4 against the A-10 dating back to the 2001-2002 season, including a sweep of St. Louis in the CBI finals in 2010. We have had plenty of success against high-major programs as well having knocked off Duke, Maryland, Wake Forest, Oklahoma, UCLA, Southern California, Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, and Kansas since 2007. We've had 2 top-20 NBA draft picks since 2009 in Eric Maynor (#20 in 2009) and Larry Sanders (#15 in 2010). Here's an article with some facts and figures on the previous decade of VCU success not including the 2011-2012 season in which we went 29-7 and went to the round of 32 after replacing 4 of our top 5 scorers from our Final Four squad: http://vcuathletics..../20110809qzozxk

We have founded a unique coaching evaluation system called the Villa 7 consortium that has been sponsored by Nike and is run through VCU's Center for Sports Leadership. It was created in response to Jeff Capel being courted by high-major jobs the season before he ultimately left for Oklahoma. It draws the elite assistant coaches in the country every year for elite level workshops and advice on how to best present themselves for head coaching jobs in the future. Both Anthony Grant and Shaka Smart were discovered by VCU through this program and so VCU has a short-list of the best assistants in the country on speed-dial whenever a coaching change occurs. Over 60 coaches have landed D1 coaching jobs as a result of the Nike Villa 7 Consortium and it is no coincidence that the hottest young coaches every BCS program with an opening has wanted the last several years in Anthony Grant and Shaka Smart were/are at VCU. It's not a product of dumb luck, but by design. Some of the recent head coaching hires in the A10 in Chris Mack at Xavier, Archie Miller at Dayton, and Alan Major at Charlotte have gone through that program to get where they are now. Other notable head coaches who have attended Villa 7 are Buzz Williams (Marquette), Josh Pastner (Memphis), and Dave Rice (UNLV). We are in very good hands regardless of whether Shaka stays or not, and with us paying him 1.2 million/year for 8 years and him already having turned down offers from NC State, Illinois (2.5 million+ for 8 years), and declining an offer to interview at Maryland in the last 2 years, it's going to have to take a very special job for him to leave VCU.

Here are some articles on Villa 7 for those who want to educate themselves on why VCU is able to get the coaches it does and why it's not just dumb luck:

Rivals: http://collegebasket....asp?CID=966664

ESPN: http://sports.espn.g...dana&id=6270629

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.c.../03coaches.html

I did read someone saying that our attendance was 6,000 last year which is inaccurate. Our facility seats 7,617 and we averaged 7,622 this past season selling-out every game. VCU has sold out a CAA-record 18 consecutive home games to date with no signs of that streak ending anytime soon. Yes the Siegel Center is not a huge facility like Creighton's but it does provide VCU with the 11th-highest home winning percentage in the country at 85.79%, 2 spots ahead of Creighton in the national rankings: http://www.rpirating...omecourtrec.php

There is a commitment to improving our facilities as we added a 4 million dollar club suite renovation to our arena in the off-season following our Final Four run and are in the planning stages of building a 10 million dollar practice facility to be built entirely with private funds. That and the 1.2 million, 8-year salary we ponied up to Shaka Smart as a lowly CAA school should be indicative of our administration's commitment to basketball at VCU.

We're happy to be in the A-10 with like-minded institutions that are focused on excellence in basketball. I hope we can give the A-10 reason to be excited about having us, at least for those who don't seem to be overly enthused with our addition to the league. I look forward to getting to know St. Louis and the rest of this fine league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most haven't. There is a lot of ignorance out there about VCU and why it is that we are as successful as we are.

Most on here are very excited about the addition of VCU. It is basically just one goofball, who doesn't have any credibility, who is not impressed. VCU is a major upgrade over Charlotte. A few people have expressed a preference for Creighton, but that's primarily because they are a better geographic fit for us. I'm not worried so much about what markets we are in... I'm more interested in programs committed to building strong programs and VCU fits that bill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ACE, thanks and I realize that there are a lot of you who defending our addition to the league. I appreciate that. As far as markets go, yes Richmond is in the same city, but I will tell you that VCU delivers the Richmond market in a way that the Spiders simply don't. There couldn't be a bigger difference between who moves the meter in the city. VCU is the game in town.

As far as DMA's, the Omaha market is about 20 spots behind Richmond, although I get the argument that you want new markets. I would argue that the A10 never really had the Richmond market to begin with. Very few locals here watch the A10. This is ACC country and to a lesser extent was CAA country with 5 Virginia schools in the CAA and VCU, George Mason, and Old Dominion dominating the league in basketball. With VCU in the A10 now, the league gets a huge chunk of that coverage now. It was a smart media market play that will pay off for the A10 down the road. With both UVA and Virginia Tech having done little to nothing in college basketball in the last couple of decades, the A10 gets a significant opportunity to own a city of 1.2 million with the only relevant college basketball being played in the state. Richmond has no major sports teams so it's all college sports that move the meter here.

I am not dogging Creighton by any means, they have a TREMENDOUS program and their facilities across the board are better than any in the A10 for all sports from what I've seen. Their support is impressive on any level with over 16,000 a game. They are also over 400 miles west of St. Louis as the western outpost of the league. It's a tough sell from that standpoint, but I certainly love a lot of what they would bring to the league. I just think to say that VCU is just some blah mid-major that will fall back to the pack once Shaka leaves is a bit unfair.

We've had 7 losing seasons in our history as a D1 school since 1973. We've won 11 NCAA games in 11 appearances and garnered 3 at-large bids as members of mid-major leagues. VCU was a #5-seed in 1981 and 1983 (at-large), a #6-seed in 1984 (at-large), and as high as a #2 seed in the West Regional of the 1985 tournament. For all the recent NCAA tourney wins we've recently had, we were even competitive in our losses as we lost by a single point to a Chris Paul-led Wake Forest team (79-78) in 2004 and UCLA in 2009 (65-64) and took Pittsburgh to overtime for a chance at the Sweet Sixteen in 2007. That was all before Shaka Smart took the reins at VCU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most haven't. There is a lot of ignorance out there about VCU and why it is that we are as successful as we are.

Glad to have you aboard. Despite the long thread here on VCU its important to note its really just one or two posters questionning the move. The vast majority of Billiken fans are excited to have a program as good as VCU in the A-10

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no real problem with VCU joining the A10 - I said so before - my only point was did we have to add them now to make us a 15 team league or would we be better off with a 12 team league long term. I have never doubted VCU's commitment to being successful. I do appreciate the "on the ground" view of the Richmond market and it does provide new info to think about. I just hope that the A10 will look at the scheduling process and if teams are sent to Richmond that they play both Richmond and VCU on a Thurs/Sat schedule and the following year both VCU and Richmond go to those home sites. This helps a great deal with the travel issue and the missed class time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few things:

  • Welcome to the board, DistrictBaller. Nothing but good stuff so far.
  • I had never heard of the Villa 7 conference. Really interesting stuff. Makes me feel really good about our conference's newest member, the way the institution took the initiative to address the 'stepping stone' problem second- and third-tier programs face.
  • I absolutely believe that VCU is the bigger show in town compared to UR. VCU is the bigger state school with more local alums and a more central location. Richmond is small, private, suburban, and the vast majority of its student body is from elsewhere and ends up elsewhere.
  • Doubling down on a market is not always a bad thing. The ACC has the Triangle well-represented with Duke in Durham, UNC in Chapel Hill, and NC State in Raleigh, and that seems to be working out well for the conference. Before I get angry replies to that, I know that it is probably the most extreme example possible. My point is just that local rivalries within the same conference can work out well. (The Pac 12 has multiple examples, not to mention the Philly rivalries in the A10). In the end, I'd rather have the better long-term program than just chase a new/bigger market.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome DB to Billikens.com. Not sure who's knocking the addition of VCU, but think most Billiken fans welcome the Rams. The better the program the better for all involved in the A-10. You either rise to the occasion or become irrelevant.

I didn't know VCU was all that successful before Grant and Shaka, and that's a pretty impressive NCAA record for a school out of the CAA. Much more so than SLU's.

But no doubt, if the A-10 can somehow fit Creighton into the equation, it becomes all that more attractive a conference. Which hopefully means a better TV deal, more challenges to the BCS's at large dominance in the tourney, and improved recruiting.

Again, welcome to the A-10, most of us are looking forward to having VCU in the mix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys, I appreciate the welcome.

Some of the guys who run our fan website VCURamNation.com have also started a new A10 board for those who are interested in non-flaming alternative for basketballforum's site for basketball discussion of the conference. It can be found at http://www.a10talk.com if you'd like to check it out. We think it provides a superior product and while it's just getting off the ground, we're hoping that it takes off. They will be doing video features such as the one they did on the VCU press conference announcing the A-10 move: http://www.a10talk.c...to-atlantic-10/

We're hoping to get some more SLU folks out there as we have a healthy Richmond, VCU, and Xavier contingent there as well as a smattering of folks from the other schools as well. Hope to see some of you on there! We've already had a 'Best Venue in the A10' thread going and the consensus among VCU fans seems to be that Chaifetz takes the cake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

District Baller. Let me also welcome you to this Board and your Rams to the A10. I share the same comments set forth above by Ace.

Curios, though, as to your local take on conference reallignment and its eventual impact on the A10. As you know, football is the driving force. Locally, we have seen our state school (Mizzou) join the SEC, we have seen defections within the the Big East ... All along we have heard that the Big XII would go out of business and that there would be four (4) super conferences with one of them being the ACC (in addition to the SEC, Big 10 and PAC 10). You are in "ACC country", what's going on with Florida State and Clemson?? Are they joining the Big XII. If so, are you hearing the same regarding further defections from the Big East - and possibly going to the ACC? And as it all then relates to the A10, what are real intentions of Univ. of Richmond for football?? and of UMass and the other CAA football schools?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been confirmed by TCU's AD that Florida State, Clemson, and Miami are all trying to get into the Big12. The Big12 is positioning itself to be one of those 4 and the ACC looks awfully reactive right now. No doubt they will poach from the Big East if it happens, but the Big12 doesn't seem to be overly eager to expand right now from what people are saying here. They may well leave, in which case I expect schools like UConn, Louisville, and perhaps Rutgers would be considered.

As for the mythical Big East split that everyone has been hoping will happen for years, that will continue to be far-fetched. The basketball schools will cling on to the football schools as long as they can. It makes the most money for them, and in the long run, that's all that matters. As far as the A10 Richmond has no intention of ever moving up to the FBS as it stands. They are comfortable playing FCS football and are committed to playing at the highest level they can within that division. They've built a brand-new football facility that only seats 8,700. There are no plans to upgrade the program to the FBS. UMass will only leave if they get a Big East invite for all sports, which would take a collapse of epic proportions from the Big East. The Big East is trying to get Air Force to be their next member. Clearly geography is no factor to them in their quest for football relevance and survival. If UMass was considered a serious target, being within the conference footprint, they would have been contacted a long time ago. There is probably a bit of a stigma for a BCS conference to take a school that is going into its first year of FBS football. They probably see themselves as deserving existing, established FBS teams.

UMass is happy in the A10 for basketball because simply put, it's the highest level of play available to them right now. As things stand, that's probably not going to change any time soon. If the Big East is passing over ECU with their history and 50,000 fans packing their house for every game in C-USA. They aren't going after UMass one year removed from the FCS and playing their first year of FBS football in the MAC with way less fans. They also haven't shown that they deliver the Boston market in any discernible way which I suspect is as or more important than anything else mentioned above.

The A10 appears to be the highest level for basketball-only schools who aren't already in the Big East and looks to stay that way for awhile. Until the Big East bball schools become so disgusted with their situation that they are willing to walk away from millions on principle, things will stay the way they are. A lot of those schools are charter members of the Big East and they're going to stick it out as long as they can, and it certainly looks like the Big East is willing to do whatever it takes to stay 'relevant' and survive in football. Even if being relevant means being a joke to college sports fans everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...