cgeldmacher Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The Pope is a Jesuit. You may want to pay a bit more attention to what he's been saying lately. Bonwich, you need to acknowledge that not everyone shares your opinion on this. In fact, I would guess that most, if being honest, would have the opposite opinion to yours. BMB is correct. Potential college students and parents of potential college students are affected by their perception of the campus, probably more so than they should be, but they are. A bright, new, vibrant campus with green space, flowers, and statues are what most people making a college decision want (not everyone, but most). Buildings piled on top of buildings with homeless people milling around are not what they want. That comment is in no way an anti-homeless statement. It is also not a comment about parents being bad people for not wanting their kids to go to a campus that has homeless people around it. It is just a fact of life. When creating new space and buildings on campus, SLU needs to be concerned with what is best for the university, not the City of St. Louis or preservationists. If parents and students want green space, give them green space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'm ambivalent on this. I spent enough time in that hospital -- and the Vermin Deathlodge side -- to know the challenges of retrofitting it. Or at least of retrofitting it well within a reasonable budget. Haven't been in there for a while, but the so-called "offices" that used to be in the old tower weren't exactly the kind that you'd show off when trying to attract a world-class staff. At the same time, med and NAHP (or whatever they call it now) dorm space could be wildly cool. One thing that I don't think has been brought up is that if FD goes down, SLU loses its entire architectural identity. Ever since Biondi added that padded bra on top of Gries, the faux-copper roofs have allegedly provided visual continuity on campus. If the tower goes away, they (especially Gries) won't make a whole lot of sense. I do agree with you about Desloge Tower. I would love to keep it, if feasible, just because so much of the two campuses have been modeled after this building and the general design of Dubourg Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Very cool, and very timely. This just popped up via NextSTL. So...much...empty...space... I'm with Bonwich! Everything you've been saying in this thread is so on point that I have nothing to add. Great stuff, well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 When creating new space and buildings on campus, SLU needs to be concerned with what is best for the university, not the City of St. Louis or preservationists. I think that in many cases, these can all be achieved together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 So...much...empty...space... I'm with Bonwich! Everything you've been saying in this thread is so on point that I have nothing to add. Great stuff, well said. There really is a lot of empty space. Sometimes I question whether it really should be considered a nice campus when you compare it to other similar schools (I understand the campus has come a long way, but has it continued to the past 10-15 years?). I wish they would build more appealing new buildings when taking on significant new projects (like Chaifetz) as opposed to sinking money into old buildings many of which lack real identity anyways (the law school (not on campus now), student center, rec center, library, Gries, etc.). In my opinion SLU has no identity as a campus and it looks like a bunch of random buildings pieced together for the most part. The buildings in the heart of the campus are largely ugly looking buildings and few really go together. I guess the nicest academic building on campus is the business school (?) with the church and DuBourg being the most identifiable (wonder when they will have to sink considerable $ into DuBourg), but so many of the other buildings are not visually appealing at all. Any chance we will see some of these older/seemingly under utilized buildings torn down? It looks like the new dorm is being built right on Laclede across from Humphrey's, anyone know what that building will look like? Seems like a lot of space that is not really utilized when you think about the stretch of the campus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 There really is a lot of empty space. Sometimes I question whether it really should be considered a nice campus when you compare it to other similar schools (I understand the campus has come a long way, but has it continued to the past 10-15 years?). I wish they would build more appealing new buildings when taking on significant new projects (like Chaifetz) as opposed to sinking money into old buildings many of which lack real identity anyways (the law school (not on campus now), student center, rec center, library, Gries, etc.). In my opinion SLU has no identity as a campus and it looks like a bunch of random buildings pieced together for the most part. The buildings in the heart of the campus are largely ugly looking buildings and few really go together. I guess the nicest academic building on campus is the business school (?) with the church and DuBourg being the most identifiable (wonder when they will have to sink considerable $ into DuBourg), but so many of the other buildings are not visually appealing at all. Any chance we will see some of these older/seemingly under utilized buildings torn down? It looks like the new dorm is being built right on Laclede across from Humphrey's, anyone know what that building will look like? Seems like a lot of space that is not really utilized when you think about the stretch of the campus. Well, that photo is really the medical campus, so it's Grand and Chouteau and the surrounding area, primarily to the south. But on the Frost campus, it looks like a collection of random buildings because that's really what it is - DuBourg is really the "original" SLU building for a long time along with the church, then Davis-Shaughnessy and the West Pine Gym and a couple others. Xavier Hall used to be a high school, the house-like buildings were all actual private houses, and a lot of other buildings were acquired or built later. I agree that the mid-century stuff lacks an identity: Ritter Hall, Fusz Hall (which was originally for seminarians, right?), Marguerite, the library, and the tower, and those were all very dated looking by the time we were there, let alone now. The Village was built cheaply and is falling apart. I like to preserve the older brick and stone stuff, though. They really don't make buildings like that anymore. Wish we had more of it there. But I don't think space usage is as big an issue on the west side of Grand in the Frost campus as it is east of Grand or down in the medical campus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Well, that photo is really the medical campus, so it's Grand and Chouteau and the surrounding area, primarily to the south. But on the Frost campus, it looks like a collection of random buildings because that's really what it is - DuBourg is really the "original" SLU building for a long time along with the church, then Davis-Shaughnessy and the West Pine Gym and a couple others. Xavier Hall used to be a high school, the house-like buildings were all actual private houses, and a lot of other buildings were acquired or built later. I agree that the mid-century stuff lacks an identity: Ritter Hall, Fusz Hall (which was originally for seminarians, right?), Marguerite, the library, and the tower, and those were all very dated looking by the time we were there, let alone now. The Village was built cheaply and is falling apart. I like to preserve the older brick and stone stuff, though. They really don't make buildings like that anymore. Wish we had more of it there. But I don't think space usage is as big an issue on the west side of Grand in the Frost campus as it is east of Grand or down in the medical campus. -getting past any judgment based on The Situation, what is your take on the look of Cook Hall? I guess that is the newest building on Frost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 -getting past any judgment based on The Situation, what is your take on the look of Cook Hall? I guess that is the newest building on Frost? It's all right, I guess. Kind of the same thing Wash U does in that it tries to match the old-style architecture of Davis-Shaughnessy, which it's attached to. It looks good relative to other buildings on campus. They weren't quite able to match the brick color, which bugs me. And for the price (at the time), it doesn't really offer a whole lot - certainly some things that the business school needed, like an auditorium, atrium/general space, cafe, etc. - but only five classrooms, if memory serves. They had room to do more to the immediate south, which is mostly a pond/stream/rock formation thing. Again with the suburban office park mentality in the middle of a major city (not as egregious as parts of the campus east of Grand or the Doisy Building block of the med campus, but still). Seems like a building that was conceived more as a show pony than something truly useful. Maybe they were restricted by the amount of the gift, but they should've been more ambitious in adding to it if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 It's all right, I guess. Kind of the same thing Wash U does in that it tries to match the old-style architecture of Davis-Shaughnessy, which it's attached to. It looks good relative to other buildings on campus. They weren't quite able to match the brick color, which bugs me. And for the price (at the time), it doesn't really offer a whole lot - certainly some things that the business school needed, like an auditorium, atrium/general space, cafe, etc. - but only five classrooms, if memory serves. They had room to do more to the immediate south, which is mostly a pond/stream/rock formation thing. Again with the suburban office park mentality in the middle of a major city (not as egregious as parts of the campus east of Grand or the Doisy Building block of the med campus, but still). Seems like a building that was conceived more as a show pony than something truly useful. Maybe they were restricted by the amount of the gift, but they should've been more ambitious in adding to it if that's the case. Cook Hall/Davis-Shaughnessy is my favorite building on campus. I feel like Cook Hall added more than five classrooms, but perhaps you're right. I think it did free up space in the original building when certain offices and other functions moved over to Cook. Cook Hall's biggest impact was the atrium, which gave students a place to congregate - something that was sorely lacking before. I was working on my MBA when Cook Hall opened, and the addition really made a huge difference on my overall experience. Personally, I really liked the law school's original expansion plans that would've made the building look similar to Cook. With the law school now downtown, I have no idea if the former law school building will ever receive that facelift, but it sure would be nice. Here's how it would've looked: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Cook Hall has become a huge selling point for business students. The extra office space, extra classrooms, breakout rooms, atrium, conference rooms, and the cafe inside the building have made it maybe the busiest place on campus during the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Cook Hall has become a huge selling point for business students. The extra office space, extra classrooms, breakout rooms, atrium, conference rooms, and the cafe inside the building have made it maybe the busiest place on campus during the day Yeah, I mean, I like it and it makes a huge difference - I just think they were a little restrained in terms of what they could've done with it. I'm not sure if that's the way it had to be (i.e. Cook wanting it to be done with his single gift) or what, I just know there still isn't a ton of classroom and office space there. I also don't have the perspective of Box and Won, as I only attended the business school after Cook was completed. By the way, what's going on with the old law school building currently? I know long-term plans are shelved for the time being, but are they at least using the space? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Yeah, I mean, I like it and it makes a huge difference - I just think they were a little restrained in terms of what they could've done with it. I'm not sure if that's the way it had to be (i.e. Cook wanting it to be done with his single gift) or what, I just know there still isn't a ton of classroom and office space there. I also don't have the perspective of Box and Won, as I only attended the business school after Cook was completed. By the way, what's going on with the old law school building currently? I know long-term plans are shelved for the time being, but are they at least using the space? Agree and I wasn't around for the build out or anything so I don't know the whole story either. I really liked it and it was a big selling point for me as a business student. That being said, it has it's flaws and trying to do the same thing on other buildings could be a mistake depending on your budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Agree and I wasn't around for the build out or anything so I don't know the whole story either. I really liked it and it was a big selling point for me as a business student. That being said, it has it's flaws and trying to do the same thing on other buildings could be a mistake depending on your budget. That building has to be nearing 15 years old now too which is depressing for me to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Well, that photo is really the medical campus, so it's Grand and Chouteau and the surrounding area, primarily to the south. But on the Frost campus, it looks like a collection of random buildings because that's really what it is - DuBourg is really the "original" SLU building for a long time along with the church, then Davis-Shaughnessy and the West Pine Gym and a couple others. Xavier Hall used to be a high school, the house-like buildings were all actual private houses, and a lot of other buildings were acquired or built later. I agree that the mid-century stuff lacks an identity: Ritter Hall, Fusz Hall (which was originally for seminarians, right?), Marguerite, the library, and the tower, and those were all very dated looking by the time we were there, let alone now. The Village was built cheaply and is falling apart. I like to preserve the older brick and stone stuff, though. They really don't make buildings like that anymore. Wish we had more of it there. But I don't think space usage is as big an issue on the west side of Grand in the Frost campus as it is east of Grand or down in the medical campus. Right, my post was not on topic. The campus is a random group of buildings like you said and it certainly looks like it. If you walk around the western portion of the campus it really is a hodgepodge of crappy looking buildings and seemingly a lot of space that is not utilized overly effectively making me question whether students really perceive it as a nice campus today (I know my boss's son did not when he visited and my boss said that he was amazed by the other campuses they toured although schools that you would not compare SLU to), but there is not the significant green space like the med campus (office park feel is a good description) since it is mostly gravel that used to be the road. While Biondi created more of a true campus, it still looks like a college with a massive road down the middle of it minus the cars. I am all for preserving the older buildings, but it doesn't seem like there truly are that many of those buildings worth preserving and West Pine gym while preserved is rather strange in my opinion. Anyone have any idea what the next 5-10 years looks like from a developmental standpoint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 SLU's campus gets way overrated by a lot of SLU people, probably because it was never a true campus until the past couple decades. I know that of all the schools I applied to, it was easily the least aesthetically pleasing, and by a long shot. I think the problem is one of vision. SLU hasn't really committed to one feel or another for its campus, and whenever it looks like they're committing to one style, it seems to be done halfway at most. I love a lot of individual places and buildings there, but the overall picture is kind of a mess. I don't know, maybe that will change in time. I'm cautiously optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I think the BSC is one of the more useless buildings on campus. My first year was the year minus the BSC so I can't really remember the previous version. I like the school of business but there is a lot of underutilized space there. I had in my head that there were 3 classrooms per floor on the west side of the building, but I can't remember if it was all 3 upper floors. The breakout rooms were a nice addition as well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMouthBilliken Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Yeah, I mean, I like it and it makes a huge difference - I just think they were a little restrained in terms of what they could've done with it. I'm not sure if that's the way it had to be (i.e. Cook wanting it to be done with his single gift) or what, I just know there still isn't a ton of classroom and office space there. I also don't have the perspective of Box and Won, as I only attended the business school after Cook was completed. By the way, what's going on with the old law school building currently? I know long-term plans are shelved for the time being, but are they at least using the space? It's where the psych and foreign language departments now reside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 OK, let's take a quick look at the location of high level medical schools /medical centers. Johns Hopkins is (or was when I interviewed there eons ago) located in a plainly unsafe area and sported 12 foot chain link fences with barbed wire on top around the buildings. Tufts Medical School / Medical Center is in the south end of Chinatown in Boston, again, not a good or safe area. Boston University Medical School / Medical Center is in Roxbury, not a good area either. Temple University / Medical Center is in a really rough area of Philadelphia, as is Jefferson School of Medicine / Medical Center. And the list goes on and on. There are very few really good medical schools in suburban areas with nice lawns and manicured gardens. I ask, why should SLU try to become an exception to the rule? Is there anything to be gained from it? Besides, there is an overabundance of medical school applications for each accepted candidate, this occurs literally everywhere. Again, what is the point of the green lawns or manicured gardens? Where is the benefit to be derived from it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeSmetBilliken Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 SLU's campus gets way overrated by a lot of SLU people, probably because it was never a true campus until the past couple decades. I know that of all the schools I applied to, it was easily the least aesthetically pleasing, and by a long shot. I think it just depends on which schools you look at. The other schools I toured back in 2001 (started SLU in 2002) were Marquette, Dayton, and Loyola Chicago. In my opinion, Marquette was a few years behind SLU in campus development at the time. Maybe they've caught up since. My opinions on Loyola's campus varied greatly depending on whether I could see Lake Michigan at a given moment. Regardless, it didn't have as organized of a campus as SLU. Dayton was a little more secluded than SLU, and may have been a slightly more aesthetically pleasing. With that said, compare SLU's campus to a place like Notre Dame, and SLU isn't going to win that competition, unless you have someone who really wants to go to school in an urban environment. In general though, when compared to its peer schools (Jesuit or other Catholic schools in cities), I think SLU's campus holds its own. Compared to some state schools or private schools in different environments, maybe it doesn't do as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 OK, let's take a quick look at the location of high level medical schools /medical centers. Johns Hopkins is (or was when I interviewed there eons ago) located in a plainly unsafe area and sported 12 foot chain link fences with barbed wire on top around the buildings. Tufts Medical School / Medical Center is in the south end of Chinatown in Boston, again, not a good or safe area. Boston University Medical School / Medical Center is in Roxbury, not a good area either. Temple University / Medical Center is in a really rough area of Philadelphia, as is Jefferson School of Medicine / Medical Center. And the list goes on and on. There are very few really good medical schools in suburban areas with nice lawns and manicured gardens. I ask, why should SLU try to become an exception to the rule? Is there anything to be gained from it? Besides, there is an overabundance of medical school applications for each accepted candidate, this occurs literally everywhere. Again, what is the point of the green lawns or manicured gardens? Where is the benefit to be derived from it? I do not disagree with your general point. A campus should look nice but acting like it is the main thing is surely missing the whole point of learning and professional education. BUT your characterization of Boston is dated by at least 20 years. Chinatown is not the greatest neighborhood because of the history of outsiders seeking adult entertainment (not random crime) in the area but I ate and drank (Jacob Werth's!) in that neighborhood a lot for a good part of the decade I lived in that area and it has gotten better since I left. It's cramped like all of Boston but there are very popular theaters and restaurants that suburban types frequent in that area. There is a Whole Food's Market right there! BU Medical Center is in the highly gentrified south end (I dare you to find anything to buy or rent without the word "luxury" in it around that neighborhood) and far from Roxbury proper (which itself is not that bad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 kwyjibo, I lived in Boston from 1974 to 2002, I had a teaching appointment to the BU School of Public Health for a few of those years. I know the area well, and yes my view may be a bit dated but is nevertheless based upon years upon years of dealing with all kinds of issues in those places. Agree the South End has become gentrified, in the 70's it was not. Charlestown, now also fairly gentrified, was a very bad place then, and even the PRC (People's Republic of Cambridge) had very bad areas. And please forget the use of the past tense in this regard, it is meaningless. When an area within a city becomes gentrified all that this means is that the pocket of poverty and despair it contained has moved to a different location, usually within the city. The point I was trying to make in my prior post is that what makes a great medical center truly great is the quality of the thinking, research, and patient care that takes place within it, in the labs and in the hospitals. The greatness of a medical center is not to be found in the gardens or the visual fru fru it may be displaying. I hope SLU takes this opportunity to aim for the greatness of its medical center, taken in this context, in association with SSM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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