Tom Timmermann off SLU beat

[tomtimmermann]

Answered in reverse order:

I regularly see Frank at Cardinals games, usually waiting outside the visiting clubhouse when I'm doing sidebars. He's gathering sound for his station or someone else.

I don't know that you can do much to keep the coverage the way it is other than reading it. For years, we never knew who read what in the paper. Now, we can look and see just how many readers on each story. But don't cancel your subscription just to read it online. Do both. Ultimately, what will keep the coverage of the team high is the team doing well. If the team is 12-18 and they're getting 6,000 people a night at Chaifetz, they're going to look at whether sending a reporter on the road is a cost-effective thing to do. (And if you write letters to the editor, don't be indignant and call us names or accuse us of malfeasance. We're a sensitive bunch.)

As to what SLU could do better or what SLU does better than others, there are all sorts of things. The best atmosphere in the league, hands down, is at VCU. The place is full, the band gets everybody going, and when coupled with the team's style of play, the situation is intense. VCU and Dayton are probably the A-10 facilities with the biggest home-court advantages. (VCU may be good for four or five points.) SLU is probably third-best in the league. But I don't know how you can match that. VCU and Dayton are cities with no pro sports. They're the biggest things in town. Many of the alumni stay there after they graduate. SLU's facilities are better than anyone in the league's. Now that SLU routinely charters to away games, that's a plus. If you're only looking at the basketball side of it, I think what SLU has to offer is comparable to anyone in the league. But what would it take to make SLU into, say, Xavier? If you could get the best players in town to stay here, that would be a big step. You don't have to get every Bradley Beal, but if you could get one out of every three, that would be big. But it's tough. Let's face it: If Duke or Florida or UCLA comes knocking on your door, you have to like St. Louis (the city and the school) an awful lot to stay around. Consistently getting to the NCAA Tournament would be big, so you don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel.

One of the problems with private schools is that they can keep coaches contract information under wraps. At Mizzou, Dave Matter puts in a request and the school has to give him a copy of the contract. SLU is mum on the topic. The standard for a coach is four or five years. The fact that SLU is staying mum on the topic makes you wonder if it's something less. (It's certainly not more.) If I knew, I'd tell you.

When keeping play by play during a game, I would refer to players by initials, so I have no problem with it. (On the hockey beat, they use players numbers.) However, I'm usually referred to as T-squared rather than TT.

[Cowboy]

Answered in reverse order:

I regularly see Frank at Cardinals games, usually waiting outside the visiting clubhouse when I'm doing sidebars. He's gathering sound for his station or someone else.

I don't know that you can do much to keep the coverage the way it is other than reading it. For years, we never knew who read what in the paper. Now, we can look and see just how many readers on each story. But don't cancel your subscription just to read it online. Do both. Ultimately, what will keep the coverage of the team high is the team doing well. If the team is 12-18 and they're getting 6,000 people a night at Chaifetz, they're going to look at whether sending a reporter on the road is a cost-effective thing to do. (And if you write letters to the editor, don't be indignant and call us names or accuse us of malfeasance. We're a sensitive bunch.)

As to what SLU could do better or what SLU does better than others, there are all sorts of things. The best atmosphere in the league, hands down, is at VCU. The place is full, the band gets everybody going, and when coupled with the team's style of play, the situation is intense. VCU and Dayton are probably the A-10 facilities with the biggest home-court advantages. (VCU may be good for four or five points.) SLU is probably third-best in the league. But I don't know how you can match that. VCU and Dayton are cities with no pro sports. They're the biggest things in town. Many of the alumni stay there after they graduate. SLU's facilities are better than anyone in the league's. Now that SLU routinely charters to away games, that's a plus. If you're only looking at the basketball side of it, I think what SLU has to offer is comparable to anyone in the league. But what would it take to make SLU into, say, Xavier? If you could get the best players in town to stay here, that would be a big step. You don't have to get every Bradley Beal, but if you could get one out of every three, that would be big. But it's tough. Let's face it: If Duke or Florida or UCLA comes knocking on your door, you have to like St. Louis (the city and the school) an awful lot to stay around. Consistently getting to the NCAA Tournament would be big, so you don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel.

One of the problems with private schools is that they can keep coaches contract information under wraps. At Mizzou, Dave Matter puts in a request and the school has to give him a copy of the contract. SLU is mum on the topic. The standard for a coach is four or five years. The fact that SLU is staying mum on the topic makes you wonder if it's something less. (It's certainly not more.) If I knew, I'd tell you.

When keeping play by play during a game, I would refer to players by initials, so I have no problem with it. (On the hockey beat, they use players numbers.) However, I'm usually referred to as T-squared rather than TT.

-thanks Tom

-if you don't want to go here don't, but in regards the Post sports section, there is one writer gets a letter published about every quarter, are there so few letters or does he have pictures on someone? I only ask as most, if not all, of the time when he discusses SLU he is on a negative kick

[bonwich]

Thanks, T²!

And on one of the other burning questions of the decade, if AP Style dictates Saint Louis University, why doesn't the Post-Dispatch follow AP Style?

[tomtimmermann]

The Post-Dispatch breaks from AP style on certain occasions. One of them is this. Whenever St. Louis appears in the paper, it is St. Louis. It could be the St. Louis Galleria, St. Louis Tool and Dye, St. Louis Plumbing. It is never Saint Louis. It does not matter how the entity chooses to spell it itself. Among the reasons for doing this is consistency. Off the top of your head, is it the Saint Louis Galleria or the St. Louis Galleria? A great many things we write about at the paper involve entities with St. Louis in the name. This saves us the problem of having to look up, particularly on deadline, what some company's preference is. If there was a company called St. Louis Hydrogen and Other Highly Explosive Materials that blew up at 11 p.m., one of the last things the news desk wants to be doing on deadline is going online to find out whether it's St. Louis or Saint Louis. And if you call it St. Louis the first day, and then find out they prefer Saint Louis, you then have to go into the archives and change every reference so that 20 years from now, when Tim O'Neil does a retrospective on the giant explosion at St. Louis Hydrogen and Other Highly Explosive Materials, everything is in one place. If the St. Louis Zoo decided tomorrow that it was the Saint Louis Zoo, that's a lot of changes to make. We have gotten letters and phone calls from Fr. Biondi on down, and the answer is the same: That's our style. We treat St. Louis University the same way we treat every other entity in St. Louis with St. Louis in its name. When I'm doing a freelance assignment that involves SLU, I'll write it out as Saint Louis University. So I know how to do it. But in the Post-Dispatch, that's it.

While letters to the sports editor aren't my department, I think they are literally letters to the editor, not emails to the editor or comments on Bernie's blog. As such, we don't get many.

[Cowboy]

-I submit that we get Tom some warning points or other recognition as he is rapidly climbing the ranks of valued posters on here, at least imo

[bonwich]

Well, I know that's the company line*, but Lake Saint Louis kinda sorta negates the entire argument.

*I'm not saying you're simply a proponent of the company line, btw! Things like that simply get beaten into the staff for years and years, and no one wants to fight the obvious inconsistency internally, because those On High would rather be dictatorial than rational and they'll hurt you if you don't respect their authori-tie.

For the record, until I came within an inch of getting fired for challenging them, the official (and incorrect) P-D style for Illinois was the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana, and the official style for the UM campuses was University of Missouri at Columbia, University of Missouri at St. Louis, etc. Bill Allen spent about 15 years trying to correct the Illinois stupidity and went to his severance without having fixed it. Ironically, I ended up with Bill's AP Stylebook.

[tomtimmermann]

As a guy who at one point was in charge of the sports copy desk, protecting the company line was part of my job. However, under my stint, I did get them to change how we referred to Southwest Missouri State, going from SMSU to SMS, which the school preferred. And then they changed the name of the whole university, rendering the point moot.

I once knew the story of why we let Lake Saint Louis be Lake Saint Louis, but I've forgotten it.

There was a movement a few years back to stop calling the airport Lambert Field, but I think it failed.

By calling the school St. Louis instead of Saint Louis, it allowed me to fit two more characters into each story. You may have noticed I also saved space by never referring to Mike McCall as Mike McCall Jr.

[SluSignGuy]

There was a movement a few years back to stop calling the airport Lambert Field, but I think it failed.

I assume this movement was led by Strauss

[bonwich]

I assume this movement was led by Strauss

Naw, it didn't have any leaders, but I was part of it. And the official first-use style is now Lambert St. Louis International Airport (there may be a hyphen in there somewhere), which has taken on a sense of irony because the "International" part pretty much expired before they finally got around to changing the style.

[tomtimmermann]

Yes, though international also encompasses other factors, like length of runway and ability to process customs if needed. It's much the same way there are interstate highways in Hawaii.

These are things copy editors worry about.

[For-DaLove]

As a guy who at one point was in charge of the sports copy desk, protecting the company line was part of my job. However, under my stint, I did get them to change how we referred to Southwest Missouri State, going from SMSU to SMS, which the school preferred. And then they changed the name of the whole university, rendering the point moot.

I once knew the story of why we let Lake Saint Louis be Lake Saint Louis, but I've forgotten it.

There was a movement a few years back to stop calling the airport Lambert Field, but I think it failed.

By calling the school St. Louis instead of Saint Louis, it allowed me to fit two more characters into each story. You may have noticed I also saved space by never referring to Mike McCall as Mike McCall Jr.

Quality>Quantity. Fitting in a few more characters is a poor excuse for not doing things properly, IMO. We are Saint Louis University. The Post's policy of not putting it correctly spews of stubbornness and laziness.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I think it's a rather trifling concern. While I've chosen to respect SLU's desired spelling of "Saint Louis," I think it's silly to get bent out of shape because some outlets abbreviate "Saint" as "St." "St." means "Saint"! "Mr." means "mister"; "Mrs." means "missus" (actually "mistress"); "Dr." means "doctor," "Blvd." means "boulevard"; "Rd." means "road." How many of you spell out "road," "avenue," or "boulevard" when writing out your address? If you do for anything other than the most formal letters, you might be putting on airs.

[Clock_Tower]

Tom. Can you give a little insight into how you have been received in the locker room especially after a tough loss. I recall RM sending his assistant coaches for post-game radio interviews. Which head coaches were more willing to sit down with you and fully answer your questions? Which were more accommodating to you in general? Any head coaches more/less willing to delegate? Which were more fun to cover than others?

[kshoe]

I don't know that you can do much to keep the coverage the way it is other than reading it. For years, we never knew who read what in the paper. Now, we can look and see just how many readers on each story. But don't cancel your subscription just to read it online. Do both. Ultimately, what will keep the coverage of the team high is the team doing well. If the team is 12-18 and they're getting 6,000 people a night at Chaifetz, they're going to look at whether sending a reporter on the road is a cost-effective thing to do. (And if you write letters to the editor, don't be indignant and call us names or accuse us of malfeasance. We're a sensitive bunch.)

I think this is an important point. The PD uses clicks as their measure of fan interest. So even if you've already read the game day article in the paper, Billiken fans should click the link. Even better they should click it at home, on their phone and at work. Rightly or wrongly, we are being judged by how many clicks we get and it does affect the coverage that we receive.

[bonwich]

I think it's a rather trifling concern. While I've chosen to respect SLU's desired spelling of "Saint Louis," I think it's silly to get bent out of shape because some outlets abbreviate "Saint" as "St." "St." means "Saint"! "Mr." means "mister"; "Mrs." means "missus" (actually "mistress"); "Dr." means "doctor," "Blvd." means "boulevard"; "Rd." means "road." How many of you spell out "road," "avenue," or "boulevard" when writing out your address? If you do for anything other than the most formal letters, you might be putting on airs.

In the real world, it may be trifling. In the newspaper world, stylebooks* have more moral clout than the** Bible (and are generally viewed as more likely having been directly inspired by the word of God).

If you write "Mister Timmermann" in the Post-Dispatch, one of the two or three remaining copy editors will rebuke your sin.

If you write "Manchester Road" in the Post-Dispatch, that, too, will be punished. (Within the past five years, if you were cited for six*** corrections in a 12****-month period, you were actually given penance. And woe be unto you if you confused Manchester Road [which starts at approximately the city/county border]***** and Manchester Avenue!)

There is actually a one-off Post-Dispatch Stylebook and a global AP Stylebook. To this apostate, however, it always appeared that the Post-Dispatch Stylebook was an apocryphal gospel. It was written (and could be modified) by a High Priest (chief copy editor) -- but like the Pharisees and Sadducees, he was convinced only of his own righteousness, and he was not above crucifying anyone who did not respect his authori-tie. (I finally was able to have him overruled on UIUC and the Missouri campuses only by appealing directly to the Holy Trinity.)

As an additional footnote, in addition to spelling out precise proper style for Saint Louis University (in the listing of members of the respective college athletic conferences), the AP Stylebook has an entry for "college" that delineates exactly how to figure out what to call Saint Joseph's and St. John's and the University of California, Los Angeles. (Kudos to the Wall Street Journal for being one of the few outlets that actually follows AP Style for this last institution and its sister campuses.)

As a final footnote (save for those below), when one of the Holy Trinity saved me from the gates of Hell by admitting that our style for virtually all of our own area's major universities was wrong, I asked him if it was due to indifference, arrogance or simple laziness. His answer: "Inertia."

*Correct AP Style for style book.

**Correct AP Style: lower-case "t" for "the Bible."

***, **** Spell out whole numbers below 10, use figures for 10 and above.

***** I once witnessed a heated argument regarding how to cite addresses in Maplewood. The old guard swore it was Manchester Avenue, despite newbies pulling up the Post Office website to illustrate that it is now correctly Manchester Road. I'm also pretty sure that there is no correct AP Style for nested parentheses.

[tomtimmermann]

The SLU locker room is closed after games, except in the NCAA and A-10 tournaments, as required by rules. And NCAA rules require that, except for players who go into the interview room, players have to be in the locker room for a specified time after the game. So after, say, the Louisville loss, they were as down as you would expect, but cooperative.

During the season, at Chaifetz, two or three players are brought into the interview room and sit at a table and answer questions. This format obviously limits how many people you can talk to, keeps you from getting anything that isn't shared with everybody on hand, and slightly alters the dynamic by putting a table and a microphone in the equation, rather than having a more informal conversation. But that's probably how 90 percent of schools do it nowadays. Late in the game, the media (OK, me) will be asked who they want in the room after the game. Ninety or 95 percent of the time that person will show up. Every now and then, someone (OK, usually the same guy) would duck out and evade the PR staff or be unavailable for other reasons. On the road, I usually hang out in front of the locker room door and grab guys as they come out.

When Brad Soderberg coached the team, I would go into West Pine Gym about a half hour before practice, sit down in the front row of the bleachers, and wait for people to come in. Soderberg would come over every day and we'd talk. Then players would start coming in, and if I needed someone, I'd give them a wave and they'd come over and talk. I can remember a time or two when Soderberg delayed the start of practice while I finished up an interview. That situation was great because sometimes, you want to talk to one person about something that happened in a game, but he didn't do enough otherwise to warrant coming into the interview room. So this format was great.

When Majerus became coach, that changed. Practices were closed and there was no access to players or Rick before practice. All interviews were done afterwards, though when practice ended about 6 p.m., most players just wanted to leave and get something to eat. So if you wanted to talk to more than one person, good luck. (He slightly let up on that in his final season.) Majerus would send assistant coaches out to do postgame on road trips because the set up there required him to walk back out to courtside to do the interview, and he didn't want to do that. (He didn't want to do it at SLU either, which is why they had to wire a microphone into the locker room oarea.) Majerus never once failed to talk to me after a game, though, as you've probably heard the audio, there were some games where he didn't really want to talk or wouldn't say much once he got there. (Fun times.) Also, in the years Majerus was coach, he didn't answer or return my phone calls just twice, which, having talked to other writers around the A-10, is an amazing success rate. Again, a lot of times he didn't want to talk and couldn't wait to get off the phone with me, but he always called me back.

With Crews in charge, we do interviews before practice again, which is good -- TV had a hard time covering SLU during the Majerus Era because they don't have camera units or reporters free at 6 p.m. Crews also gives better answers. Majerus' postgame sessions had a stream of consciousness quality and he was great for not finishing thoughts. You'd have the first two-third of what seemed like it was going to be a great quote, but he wouldn't finish the sentence.

Pretty much all of SLU's assistant coaches have been great to work with. I think everyone around the team would agree that Chris Harriman was the best.

So if I had to rank, I'd say it was best under Soderberg, second-best under Crews, third-best under Majerus. Though the Soderberg level of access is pretty much unheard of at any mid-sized program or higher anymore.

[tomtimmermann]

An "at" or a hyphen instead of the comma in UCLA's written-out name is one of the more common things you see. Though most maddening is the New York Times' style, which renders the school as U.C.L.A. But I don't write letters to the editor about it and just resign myself to the moral superiority of knowing how it really should be.

Within the A-10, SLU and SJU want Saint spelled out, but Bonaventure goes with St., no doubt thinking that Saint Bonaventure would be too many letters.

[bonwich]

Yes, but is a kohlrabi a root vegetable?

[Zink]

Just wanted to say thank you to Tom for your work. You did a great job of telling each game's story within the context of both the season, and the program's history. I appreciated your Life on the Road segments, as it was a change of pace and a provided a unique perspective on both college sports and journalism. I look forward to reading your work on the Blues, and wish you all the best.

[almaman]

Just wanted to say thank you to Tom for your work. You did a great job of telling each game's story within the context of both the season, and the program's history. I appreciated your Life on the Road segments, as it was a change of pace and a provided a unique perspective on both college sports and journalism. I look forward to reading your work on the Blues, and wish you all the best.

+! please stay active on this board. Learned more from your input so far than have in 2 years on here. that's a bit of hyperbole but not by much.

[Tonka]

Steve, please lock this thread. There is way to much information for a summer thread on this Board.

[GOSLU68]

as a final tribute to Tom why don't we put a permanent link up top of the home page of this message board so we can "click" the bean counters

at the P-D

Thanks, Tom for your coverage…I hope you remain a fan and come to the games.

[JMM28]

Tom what is your opinion of the A10 vs. MVC for SLU's conference affiliation?

[majerus mojo]

Been pondering this all day, so it's more of a general question for the board, but: Which team would you rather throw out there: 2012-13, or 13-14?

Have to lean the former, right?

As a bonus: Would anyone take the 2011-2012 team, with Majerus coaching, over either, with Crews?

[tomtimmermann]

As I've said pretty much from Day 1, SLU is way better off in the A-10. Better league, better cities, better visibility. Do you want to be going to Cedar Falls, Peoria and Des Moines or Philadelphia, Washington and New York? And that's just on the basketball front. From an alumni perspective, SLU has more grads in New York than in every MVC city combined. If you want to get your brand out, the A-10 is the way to go.

And I think you have to take the 12-13 team. Ellis and Jett coming off the bench? That's quality depth.