Coach on 590

[slu72]

I don't think that 20 W season and no post season aided Rick's recruitment in the least. It was his reputation as a hoops savant that landed Mitchell, Conk, Cassity, et al. Also, he immediately hired Bianci who had a good handle on the AAU circuit.

It is exciting to see the offers being made, but I can make an offer on anything I desire. Doesn't mean I'm going to get it. Let's close some deals before we get carried away.

The quickest we could get back in the dance would be 3 years, and that would take landing a few transfers. Even a solid FR class can't get us there by themselves. Now should some of our current players suddenly break out that might speed us up a little.

[brianstl]

And the "20 win season" is really overstating where the program was at. It was a very soft 20 wins, a 20-13 record, 8-8 in conference and a 7th place finish in the A-10. Also, Ian was graduating and RM was hired so late in the process he had no time to recruit that spring. The talent level RM inherited was very weak outside of KL and TL.

That team might not have been great, but it was light years ahead of what Ford is taking over. Majerus inherited Liddell, Lisch, Brown and Meyer. That is much better than the roster Ford is inheriting. I think many people on here really underestimate the complete destruction that Jim Crews did to the program.

[Box and Won]

I think many people on here really underestimate the complete destruction that Jim Crews did to the program.

Scorched. Erff.

[billiken_roy]

Kshoe I hope you are right on your time frame. My point of lisch liddell is the fact Rickma took over a program with the credibility of a 20 win season with legit high major players. I woukd think recruits (especially very good recruits like a Kwamain Mitchell level recruit) would seem to like to be courted to a program that is alive and well by all indications and bringing in a hall of fame coach that can legitimately lay out the map to even bigger and better things. So again thinking back to where things were when Rickma walked in and comparing that to Travis ford walking in, there is quite a big difference to the two "where are we" scenarios. To expect Travis to match that I say is unrealistic. I hope he does. We shall see.

[billiken_roy]

And the "20 win season" is really overstating where the program was at. It was a very soft 20 wins, a 20-13 record, 8-8 in conference and a 7th place finish in the A-10. Also, Ian was graduating and RM was hired so late in the process he had no time to recruit that spring. The talent level RM inherited was very weak outside of KL and TL.

It was monstrous compared to this current roster

[slufan13]

I'd rather be pessimistic about the state/future of the program. If Ford can get us back to respectability quicker, I'll be very surprised and pleased. If it does take 5 years, I'll be pleased but it's meeting my expectations. It's just not good for my young heart to expect the team to be good in 2 years.

[ACE]

That team might not have been great, but it was light years ahead of what Ford is taking over. Majerus inherited Liddell, Lisch, Brown and Meyer. That is much better than the roster Ford is inheriting. I think many people on here really underestimate the complete destruction that Jim Crews did to the program.

Nobody is making the argument that the team TF is inheriting right at this moment is better than the one RM inherited... but based on the late timing of his hire, RM was also essentially starting over because he was only going to have TL and KL for their senior seasons. Just one year where he could mix in his recruits with TL and KL.

The issue people are having is this idea that it could take 5-10 years to get back to the tourney. There are so many transfers now and rosters can turn over quickly, it shouldn't take that long. Yes Crews dismantled what was built, but if there is a silver lining, it is that it happened so quickly, that the three year run of success is not ancient history (although it may seem that way). TF can sell the vision of what the program can become again. He can also sell plenty of playing time.

[cheeseman]

That team might not have been great, but it was light years ahead of what Ford is taking over. Majerus inherited Liddell, Lisch, Brown and Meyer. That is much better than the roster Ford is inheriting. I think many people on here really underestimate the complete destruction that Jim Crews did to the program.

As much as it pains me to say this - if Brad S was the coach of these guys they would have won a lot more games. He was a good tactical coach but a poor recruiter. Crews was bad at both.

[CBFan]

As much as it pains me to say this - if Brad S was the coach of these guys they would have won a lot more games. He was a good tactically coach but a poor recruiter. Crews was bad at both.

Agree, the truth can be so hard sometimes.

[cheeseman]

Kshoe I hope you are right on your time frame. My point of lisch liddell is the fact Rickma took over a program with the credibility of a 20 win season with legit high major players. I woukd think recruits (especially very good recruits like a Kwamain Mitchell level recruit) would seem to like to be courted to a program that is alive and well by all indications and bringing in a hall of fame coach that can legitimately lay out the map to even bigger and better things. So again thinking back to where things were when Rickma walked in and comparing that to Travis ford walking in, there is quite a big difference to the two "where are we" scenarios. To expect Travis to match that I say is unrealistic. I hope he does. We shall see.

RM sold KM on the idea that he was the pg not somebody else who was here. KL and TL meant nothing to RM's long term plans. The 20 win season as already pointed out was a soft record. I give BS credit for getting the 20 wins after a 9 win mess. Also, coaches often say that good records and tourney appearances only pay recruiting dividends 2 years out at the earliest - the kids who will be seniors/juniors in h.s. are already deep with other coaches/programs so that 20 win season and BS being fired basically had no impact on anything RM did.

[TheA_Bomb]

TL+KL<Chaifetz

Ford should be able to recruit 2.5-3 star players day 1. That should be a NCAA team in 3-4 years. Basketball teams can be turned around quickly.

[ACE]

It was monstrous compared to this current roster

Nobody is making the argument otherwise.

RM inherited two good players, but overall a mediocre roster with so many holes that he was going to have to build his own team from scratch to ultimately get to the Tourney. RM also inherited a program that had not been to the Dance in a long time.

TF, while inheriting a bad roster worse than the one RM inherited, has some things working in his favor that RM did not have. TF was hired a month before RM, which may not sound like a big deal, but it can make a big difference for spring recruiting. RM had no time to get anything going other than locking up Sodie recruit Barry Eberhardt. RM was hired on April 30. TF has been able to hit the ground running earlier with recruiting, with numerous offers already out there. He has the opportunity to begin the rebuild sooner if he can land an impact transfer or two (Foreman and/or Whitt). Also, TF is inheriting a program that showed it could be very successful in the not too distant past. There was no recent track record of success in the program when RM took over.

[billiken_roy]

Nobody is making the argument otherwise.

RM inherited two good players, but overall a mediocre roster with so many holes that he was going to have to build his own team from scratch to ultimately get to the Tourney. RM also inherited a program that had not been to the Dance in a long time.

TF, while inheriting a bad roster worse than the one RM inherited, has some things working in his favor that RM did not have. TF was hired a month before RM, which may not sound like a big deal, but it can make a big difference for spring recruiting. RM had no time to get anything going other than locking up Sodie recruit Barry Eberhardt. RM was hired on April 30. TF has been able to hit the ground running earlier with recruiting, with numerous offers already out there. He has the opportunity to begin the rebuild sooner if he can land an impact transfer or two (Foreman and/or Whitt). Also, TF is inheriting a program that showed it could be very successful in the not too distant past. There was no recent track record of success in the program when RM took over.

You are totally underestimating these last two years. SLU has become a total joke. We are at a level not seen since ekkertime. We as fans are much closer and emotionally tied to the situation and follow things closer. Aau and high school coaches only know what slu had transformed into over the last two years. Opposing college coaches will use the billikens last two seasons against us. Trying to interject the "new coach" response will likely get a "oh you mean Travis ford who just got fired for finishing last in the big 12?"

The point is this is not the walk in the park transformation many of you seem to be basking in. It will be hard. I am sure ford will get us back to soderberg levels but I say that is our goal for now and that might take 5 years. At that point we can talk about getting back to the ncaa tourney.

[ACE]

RM sold KM on the idea that he was the pg not somebody else who was here. KL and TL meant nothing to RM's long term plans. The 20 win season as already pointed out was a soft record. I give BS credit for getting the 20 wins after a 9 win mess. Also, coaches often say that good records and tourney appearances only pay recruiting dividends 2 years out at the earliest - the kids who will be seniors/juniors in h.s. are already deep with other coaches/programs so that 20 win season and BS being fired basically had no impact on anything RM did.

So Sodie had a 9 win season and two years later had a 20 win season... hmm.... So after the 9 win debacle season, he goes 16-13 in TL and KL's freshman season. They actually were a very respectable 10-6 in the A-10, so there was a lot of optimism heading into the next season that they could contend for the conference title. Instead, for Ian's senior season, they were a very disappointing 8-8 in the A-10. With Ian graduating and the recruiting pipeline running dry, the program was clearly heading in the wrong direction when Sodie was fired after the "20 win season."

[ACE]

You are totally underestimating these last two years. SLU has become a total joke. We are at a level not seen since ekkertime. We as fans are much closer and emotionally tied to the situation and follow things closer. Aau and high school coaches only know what slu had transformed into over the last two years. Opposing college coaches will use the billikens last two seasons against us. Trying to interject the "new coach" response will likely get a "oh you mean Travis ford who just got fired for finishing last in the big 12?"

The point is this is not the walk in the park transformation many of you seem to be basking in. It will be hard. I am sure ford will get us back to soderberg levels but I say that is our goal for now and that might take 5 years. At that point we can talk about getting back to the ncaa tourney.

As I pointed out in a previous post, even Sodie was able to rise form his horrible 9 win season to 20 wins in just two years, so I think TF can at least rise to Sodie levels of mediocrity fairly quickly. Time will tell if he can take the next step and string together some NCAA appearances.

[kshoe]

Nobody is making the argument otherwise.

RM inherited two good players, but overall a mediocre roster with so many holes that he was going to have to build his own team from scratch to ultimately get to the Tourney. RM also inherited a program that had not been to the Dance in a long time.

TF, while inheriting a bad roster worse than the one RM inherited, has some things working in his favor that RM did not have. TF was hired a month before RM, which may not sound like a big deal, but it can make a big difference for spring recruiting. RM had no time to get anything going other than locking up Sodie recruit Barry Eberhardt. RM was hired on April 30. TF has been able to hit the ground running earlier with recruiting, with numerous offers already out there. He has the opportunity to begin the rebuild sooner if he can land an impact transfer or two (Foreman and/or Whitt). Also, TF is inheriting a program that showed it could be very successful in the not too distant past. There was no recent track record of success in the program when RM took over.

This is dead on. The fact we've played in 6 NCAA tourney games over the last 5 years trumps a lot of things, including the last 2 season and our current roster. When RM took over we had gone 9 years since our last dance and there were legitimate questions about whether we could ever get to the dance from the A10.

I get that it's no longer enough to say that Crews sucked and needed to be fired, but some feel the need to make him the enemy for the next 10 years. Personally, I don't believe that any coach, short of NCAA violations, could put a well funded and well positioned program like SLU in the toilet for a 7-12 year time frame (including the 2 years that have already passed).

[billiken_roy]

As I pointed out in a previous post, even Sodie was able to rise form his horrible 9 win season to 20 wins in just two years, so I think TF can at least rise to Sodie levels of mediocrity fairly quickly. Time will tell if he can take the next step and string together some NCAA appearances.

Who is our lisch, liddell, Meyer, AND vouyoukas on our current roster?

[cheeseman]

So Sodie had a 9 win season and two years later had a 20 win season... hmm.... So after the 9 win debacle season, he goes 16-13 in TL and KL's freshman season. They actually were a very respectable 10-6 in the A-10, so there was a lot of optimism heading into the next season that they could contend for the conference title. Instead, for Ian's senior season, they were a very disappointing 8-8 in the A-10. With Ian graduating and the recruiting pipeline running dry, the program was clearly heading in the wrong direction when Sodie was fired after the "20 win season."

I said I give him credit for the 20 win season so I am not sure what your point is. The problem the program had under BS at that point was that attendance was not growing and in fact had taken a dip the previous years and he had not been recruiting well - he was leaving schollies unfilled and not even filling them the next year. He had one kid ready to sign and that was it. To say that BS had a team ready to contend for an A10 title is a bit of an overstatement. We had no idea what to expect the next year given that the roster was getting thin. My only problem with letting him go was the timing but as it turned out it was the right thing to do. BS was never going to be the answer.

[ACE]

I said I give him credit for the 20 win season so I am not sure what your point is. The problem the program had under BS at that point was that attendance was not growing and in fact had taken a dip the previous years and he had not been recruiting well - he was leaving schollies unfilled and not even filling them the next year. He had one kid ready to sign and that was it. To say that BS had a team ready to contend for an A10 title is a bit of an overstatement. We had no idea what to expect the next year given that the roster was getting thin. My only problem with letting him go was the timing but as it turned out it was the right thing to do. BS was never going to be the answer.

I think we're pretty much on the same page. My point in referencing 20 wins is to show that a program can go from 9 wins to 20 fairly quickly. Totally agreed about leaving the scholarships unfilled and recruiting misses.

The season I am talking about where people thought (including some national prognostications) that we could contend for the conference title was the year TL & KL were sophomores and Ian was a senior (Sodie's final season). The year before we were 10-6 with a 3rd place finish in the A-10 with freshmen TL & KL and an improving Ian, so it stood to reason that we could contend the next year. Obviously that proved to be a disappointment with an 8-8 conference record during Ian's senior season. Agreed the timing of the firing was odd, but the decision was a no-brainer. The program was heading down if Sodie had stayed. The freshmen and sophomore classes he had were weak.

[brianstl]

At this point, Ford has brought in zero players to add to a low talent roster. He has track record of making the NCAA tournament when he has a roster stacked with talent. Why does anyone think that he is going to be able to add enough talent in the next few years to make this roster anything close to a tournament team? That would require every guy he lands to be a hit and be able to contribute right away. He isn't recruiting to OK St. anymore. It is a lot harder to recruit to SLU.

I think he will improve the talent on the roster, but it will take some time to get a roster 9 deep with the players it will take for Ford to get the tournament.

[ACE]

Who is our lisch, liddell, Meyer, AND vouyoukas on our current roster?

You mean the same Luke Meyer who averaged 3 ppg his freshman and sophomore seasons? As a point of comparison, Roby had 6 ppg his first two seasons. We got too many role players like that - that has been the problem. Meyer became better as an upperclassman, players can improve, including some of our current players. Ian was a guy I recall you being very down on his first two seasons. He was a much better player as a senior than he was as a sophomore. Who knows where guys like Neufeld and Welmer will be in two years. There may not be another Lisch waiting in the wings, but All-Conference freshman Bishop (cue the knocks on his defense) has gotten off to a nice start and could be a good piece moving forward. Also it's the coaches job to start gathering talent. Who knows what that will look like in two years. A lot can change fairly quickly. Maybe Whitt and/or Foreman are on the team. Maybe Ford hits on other quality players. I just don't think it has to take that long to rise to Sodie levels of mediocrity. Now rising back to RM levels of success?... that is a different question.

[billiken_roy]

Per ace bishop = lisch. Ok. Can't successfully reason talking to a crazy person. You just go on believing we are in the 2018 ncaa tourney. Hope you're right. I'm done on this thread.

[hsmith19]

I'm willing to give Ford a total pass next year, but .500 in 2017-18 would be nice. Surely no one's expecting much more than that. That would match Majerus' first season.

[ACE]

At this point, Ford has brought in zero players to add to a low talent roster. He has track record of making the NCAA tournament when he has a roster stacked with talent. Why does anyone think that he is going to be able to add enough talent in the next few years to make this roster anything close to a tournament team? That would require every guy he lands to be a hit and be able to contribute right away. He isn't recruiting to OK St. anymore. It is a lot harder to recruit to SLU.

I think he will improve the talent on the roster, but it will take some time to get a roster 9 deep with the players it will take for Ford to get the tournament.

True, but conversely he also isn't competing any more against Self, Kruger, Huggins, etc. He will be battling the goofball from LaSalle and the dopey guy from UMass and whoever Duquesne has coaching at the moment.

To be clear, I am not expecting to be an NCAA Tournament team in the next few years(although would love to be pleasantly surprised), but I think it is realistic to at least get to a level of respectability fairly quickly with the opportunity to continue to trend up to NCAA tourney levels. It will take time and stringing good recruiting classes together. We'll see if he can get anything going this spring. There has been a lot of recruiting chatter, but like you said we still don't have any commitments. There is still time. Maybe we'll hear something soon after Foreman's visit this weekend. That would be a good start.

[ACE]

Per ace bishop = lisch. Ok. Can't successfully reason talking to a crazy person. You just go on believing we are in the 2018 ncaa tourney. Hope you're right. I'm done on this thread.

Sure roy, that is exactly what I said. Ace said "There may not be another Lisch waiting in the wings,"

And where did I say anything closely resembling we are in the 2018 ncaa tourney??? I just said getting "to Sodie levels of mediocrity" in two years... WHICH DOES NOT MEAN GETTING INTO THE NCAA TOURNEY. Sodie levels of mediocrity = a season of 8-8 in the conference, a soft 20 wins overall and no trip to the NIT.

It probably is best for you to quit this one while you are behind.