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Who disappears when the rotation gets cut down?


ARon

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Manning was helpful at times when their guards got to the paint just beating our guy off the dribble but he did nothing on guarding the ball screen.

But to turn the attention away from Manning, Jolly absolutely has to stop trying to take a charge every time. Even if he took a textbook charge 5 times, it's only getting called 2 or 3 because refs pretty much guess anyway

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No, Manning's defense wasn't anything special. But he was still much better than Gillmann on the defensive end. I have been impressed with Gillmann's shooting, his passing, even his dribbling, but (as many others have pointed out) he has not shown anything defensively yet. Manning is still the best defensive big man on the roster. Take him out and this team gets worse. Whether Gillmann and Jolly would get better years down the road if they didn't have to split time with Manning now, I don't know for sure. But I do tend to think it's a stretch to say those 15-20 minutes Manning is getting now are somehow stunting the growth of the other two.

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wow! You thought Manning defended the pick and roll. We saw different games. What he did do was clog up the middle at the end.

Well, they continued to do the pick and roll but Manning sagged off his man better, clogging up the middle. I just saw Gillman and Jolly failing to recover quick enough, especially Jolly when he was in the game. Trust me, I'm not a Manning apologist but I could see why he was playing late in the game. I really thought the other two centers struggled much more defensively in the game last night.

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Long time lurker. Happy to be here despite the on court performance.

Here's a brief look at what I'd like to see

BJ & DR haven't been cutting it - BENCH

AY isn't proving the need for more minutes, but the prospect is still tantalizing.

AG, MY, & MB need increased minutes

Honestly, if you're putting it in the bucket - let's find a way to get you on the court, here are the FG%'s for the team thru 10 games:

Player - FG%

MY - .582 - needs more time

AG -. 516 - needs more time

RA. - 481 - needs more time, might have to play some five due to JM being JM; draws fouls, needs to improve at the line

MC - .471 - same

TL - 458 - same, maybe a slight increase,

AY - .388 - same, waiting to see this, growing tired of waiting

AM - .374 - same, move to the 2 - will JC do this?

MB - .355 - increased minutes as the 1

JM - .348 - decreased minutes; someone has to play some at the 5 other than AG

BJ - .333 - bench

MR - .300 - someone needs to take some minutes at 1 other than MB and AM

DR -.250 - bench

That said, if things aren't working out (improving), JC is going to have to play with this all year long

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Well, they continued to do the pick and roll but Manning sagged off his man better, clogging up the middle. I just saw Gillman and Jolly failing to recover quick enough, especially Jolly when he was in the game. Trust me, I'm not a Manning apologist but I could see why he was playing late in the game. I really thought the other two centers struggled much more defensively in the game last night.

I would agree that Manning did it better. Jolly lost his man and never found him again at least once. While I would agree Manning has been disappointing, it is a fact is that he had a better game than he has had all year. He had a nice line, 6 puts 6 reb, 3 assist no turnovers, 4 blocks and a few steals, AG had 6 points 3 Rebounds, 3 assists, two turnovers no blocks. Jolly a bunch of 0's..... Starting is for high school, and practice will determine who starts.

One other thought, thus far I see players thinking out there about where they should be where they should go, who they should pass too. Particularly for the freshman it has not become second nature. Each game allows film to teach players. Things run more smoothly when sophomores and juniors are in, although some of the freshman have enough talent to make things work. When they start playing without thinking they will improve. The turnovers were hard to stomach. However I recall a former A-10 player of the year causing a turnover a minute in his early years.

AY will settle down, he is doing everything at the same fast speed. Last night he drove across the lane and floated up kept the ball away from the defender and kissed it of the glass. Changing speed will help him but it will come when he lets the game come to him.

MY and RA need to pass the ball back out to the perimeter if they do not have a play. MY cannot continue to go up against four players, it is a team game with simple math, if four players are covering him, then has has a teammate open.

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I've been impressed with AG's lack of dribbling - get up high and put it in. How many buckets does he have this year where he gets it about 2 feet from teh rim and lays it in - hopefully JM has a revelation while he watches AG steal his minutes.

Now, just get to the weight room AG.

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I totally agree with this. I'm not a big Manning fan by any means but the other two centers have been awful defensively. Both Gillman and Jolly couldn't recover on the pick and rolls last night. It was awful defense by both those guys. Manning at least stopped the bleeding some in that area, which I think stemmed the tide in that game. Manning helped the guards recover that kept getting beat off the dribble.

You and I saw the same game. Others apparently were watching something else. Manning follows the ball on the pick and roll, double teaming with the guard. The guard has no where to go. He has a 7 footer on him and his original defender double teaming him. Our other two players underneath rotate over to cover Manning's man. Happened numerous times last night. Manning recovers when the ball has been reversed.

Not saying the Gillmann and Jolly don't do this, but not to the extent that Manning performs this.

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I wonder if conditioning (or a lack thereof) has any bearing on minute allocation, especially with our Bigs and young guys. Manning and Agbeko are playing more minutes than they ever have. Gillmann is averaging about 3 less minutes per game than Loe did as a freshman. And who knows about Jolly. I know we all have our preconceptions as to what Division 1 athletes 'should' be able to handle (even as underclassmen), but I'm wondering if conditioning is a legitimate concern for some of these guys. It would certainly help to explain the erratic substitution patterns.

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Long time lurker. Happy to be here despite the on court performance.

Here's a brief look at what I'd like to see

BJ & DR haven't been cutting it - BENCH

AY isn't proving the need for more minutes, but the prospect is still tantalizing.

AG, MY, & MB need increased minutes

Honestly, if you're putting it in the bucket - let's find a way to get you on the court, here are the FG%'s for the team thru 10 games:

Player - FG%

MY - .582 - needs more time

AG -. 516 - needs more time

RA. - 481 - needs more time, might have to play some five due to JM being JM; draws fouls, needs to improve at the line

MC - .471 - same

TL - 458 - same, maybe a slight increase,

AY - .388 - same, waiting to see this, growing tired of waiting

AM - .374 - same, move to the 2 - will JC do this?

MB - .355 - increased minutes as the 1

JM - .348 - decreased minutes; someone has to play some at the 5 other than AG

BJ - .333 - bench

MR - .300 - someone needs to take some minutes at 1 other than MB and AM

DR -.250 - bench

That said, if things aren't working out (improving), JC is going to have to play with this all year long

Excellent second post. Agree completely.

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Twice this week I've heard or read comments from coach Crews that show how frustrated he is with this bunch. He told the media part of the trouble in cutting down the rotation is that not a single player on the team has strung two good games together. During the post-game show last night he said, with a very exasperated tone, "Looks like we played everyone again tonight."

But by conference play I have to imagine the oration will be cut down to 8 or 9. It's one things to play 10-11 players because they are all so good, but when they are mostly playing like lost children?

So as of today who are the odd men out?

At this point (and this is assuming Glaze still isn't back), I think it's is Jolly, Reynolds, and Roby. I'm surprised myself by this as I'd assumed all three would at least be ahead of their fellow freshmen by now. Maybe Roby gets in at the expense of Lancona against smaller lineups.

I totally agree disagree with your premise and hope you are wrong. Restricting our bench to 8 or 9 guys is a bad idea and would greatly hurt us going forward. Whether or not this year should have been a year to reload or rebuild is whole other conversation. Instead, we are what we are, and I'd suggest, we are next year what we are this year in that we will have the same personnel in that 2 of our bigs (GG and JM) will be replaced with 2 new and unproven bigs. And based upon our history, most freshman bigs play only a limited role. Even assuming Welmer and Neufeld arrive more ready to contribute next year, they still will need to beat out AG, BJ, TL and RA and they sure won't help our problems with the point guard, with our shooting guard, with outside shooting, with dribble penetration and with patience on the offense allow the play to develop and our bigs to get open.

Instead, we have the above 4 bigs and JM and I want to see all 4 bigs get playing time this year. Not only does each have something to offer but also none of the 5 bigs have stepped up to deserve or merit the playing time which would force 2 or so to the bench The same can and should be said about the guards. DR was JC's opening starter, is very athletic and tall, and has superb individual defensive and offensive talent. MIles Reynolds single handedly carried up to the win at ISU and avoided earlier/further meltdown. Right now, these guys are lacking D1 college, team offense and defense.skills which only will come through game play and coaching. Most importantly, playing time needs to be earned and not given to anyone -- the Frosh included. If 8 or 9 truly change their play and step up, then fine. But rewarding bad and inconsistent play with the elimination of competition sends the wrong message and stunts both the learning development of those in the top 8 or 9 as well as the rest. There is nothing worse than playing a youngster b/c we need him when he is not doing what the coach wants. Playing 12 keeps options open and keeps the competition going --- until the better kids seize the opportunity away from the others.

Last year, our guys (Seniors and Frosh) were not playing well. JC shortened the bench to win OOC games. This approach served us well in the short run (last year's RPI, won loss record and post-season play) but proved to be our downfall longterm (our starters wore down and this year's Sophs never got the playing time/development which would have help us reload this year. Unless we are able to compete for the A10 championship this year, restricting the bench will only hurt us long-term,

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Long time lurker. Happy to be here despite the on court performance.

Here's a brief look at what I'd like to see

BJ & DR haven't been cutting it - BENCH

AY isn't proving the need for more minutes, but the prospect is still tantalizing.

AG, MY, & MB need increased minutes

Honestly, if you're putting it in the bucket - let's find a way to get you on the court, here are the FG%'s for the team thru 10 games:

Player - FG%

MY - .582 - needs more time

AG -. 516 - needs more time

RA. - 481 - needs more time, might have to play some five due to JM being JM; draws fouls, needs to improve at the line

MC - .471 - same

TL - 458 - same, maybe a slight increase,

AY - .388 - same, waiting to see this, growing tired of waiting

AM - .374 - same, move to the 2 - will JC do this?

MB - .355 - increased minutes as the 1

JM - .348 - decreased minutes; someone has to play some at the 5 other than AG

BJ - .333 - bench

MR - .300 - someone needs to take some minutes at 1 other than MB and AM

DR -.250 - bench

That said, if things aren't working out (improving), JC is going to have to play with this all year long

Interesting. So defense doesn't matter, only offensive FG%? What about rebounds, assists, A/TO ratio, steals, blocks, plus intangibles that don't have a classic metric attached to it?

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I've been impressed with AG's lack of dribbling - get up high and put it in. How many buckets does he have this year where he gets it about 2 feet from teh rim and lays it in - hopefully JM has a revelation while he watches AG steal his minutes.

Now, just get to the weight room AG.

Speaking of the weight room...has this been closed off to the players the past year or two? I know a lot of these guys are freshman, but I'm also talking about the rest of the team. I'm sitting there watching Wichita State and they appeared to be in much better physical shape than our guys. I'm not talking about a Big 12 or Big 10 school..this is the MVC we are talking about here. I'm not saying our guys don't have stamina, but I don't see much bulk or muscle on our guys. Maybe we should disguise this and wear t-shirts under our jerseys. What about this strength and conditioning coach that I hear so much about? Again, I'm not knocking the players but someone needs to put these guys in the weight room, get them on good nutrition programs, and bulk up a bit. There is no excuse for looking like noodle arms out there getting pushed around when we have a top notch weight room.. Again, I know the freshman have a hard time putting on muscle, but what about the rest of the classes? Lancona has enough weight, but where is the muscle mass? Backhand, please put in your resume.

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Interesting. So defense doesn't matter, only offensive FG%? What about rebounds, assists, A/TO ratio, steals, blocks, plus intangibles that don't have a classic metric attached to it?

Sure they matter - it's one of the reasons I'd think Jolly is on the bench (his defense seems to be primarily based on his ability to take a charge) and also why Manning gets some play (although his defense was pretty awful in the SD State game - especially the end).

It's just one way to look at. My biggest takeaway from the list provided was Gillman and Yarborough need more time - does anyone really disagree with that? Gillman is a potential liability on defense, but he is putting it in the bucket.

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You and I saw the same game. Others apparently were watching something else. Manning follows the ball on the pick and roll, double teaming with the guard. The guard has no where to go. He has a 7 footer on him and his original defender double teaming him. Our other two players underneath rotate over to cover Manning's man. Happened numerous times last night. Manning recovers when the ball has been reversed.

Not saying the Gillmann and Jolly don't do this, but not to the extent that Manning performs this.

This is correct, and how this team's defense has been designed to operate for years. Jolly and Gillman have a tendency to lose track of their original man when trying this. It will come with experience.

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Here's a fun little stat re: the rotation:

Per kenpom, we are currently in first place... In... Bench minutes (48.3%)

As a point of reference, Kentucky and their "platoons" are 2nd at 45.4%.

Thanks. This is a really interesting stat. I'd been wondering about how our bench scoring compares to the rest of the nation, but this is just as enlightening.

I'm also wondering if this topic premise isn't a false one. Could "when" really be "if"? We certainly don't seem any closer to having a more traditionally sized rotation than when the season started. We all have our preferences, obviously, but can't be sure what's going on within the team. Nothing is really 'working' in a clear way yet, no one is consistent enough to be a sure thing, and it's hard to say anyone in particular deserves the end of the bench (since Manning comments would be the response to that, he's our only senior this season).

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Roby doesn't look to be much of a slasher offensively, which I thought was supposed to be his strength coming in. He does try to drive to the basket, but usually it ends with him throwing up a prayer or throwing it away. He looks like a good defender and passer. He has decent form on the release on his jump shot, but often appears he is shooting without getting his feet set. I think like most of these guys, he has to get used to the speed of the game to realize what he can and can't do. With his size and build, he looks like he could develope an inside game like Jeff Harris had if he can add more muscle and learn how to use it down low.

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