Three Years Ago Tonight

[ACE]

Good times.

And less than 48 hours after that Butler game, we absolutely destroyed a decent SVU team. I went back and watched it after SVU recently drilled us. We were beating them at the Fetz by 37 with 3 minutes to go before putting in the walk-ons. There were long stretches where we were flawless. It may have been the worst beat down we have given an A-10 opponent. That SVU team actually had a bit of talent: Dillard, Oliver, Sanford, Benson and Pierre. My how the two programs have changed in just three years. I'm sure the SVU fans were freaking out at the time about Archie, but give him credit. It shows how quickly things can change, but we must begin the rebuild with a coaching change. Rosters can turn over quickly in today's game.

I have been of the belief that THE problem has been recruiting - which I still believe is not nearly as good as it should have been coming off of our success, but recruiting is not the only problem. The team should not be THIS bad. There has been a lot of talk about MY and I know he can be frustrating, but he should be better than this: I know there were too many turnovers last year, but 10 pts and 4.5 rebounds as a freshman is pretty darn good in Billiken history. I want some of the current players to move on, but I also think some of them can be salvaged and more productive with a new direction.

With bold leadership and the support of our boosters, it can be turned around fairly quickly with the hiring of the right coach. Doing nothing should not be an option.

[hsmith19]

Cassity was a better shooter than Barnett if you look at the numbers. Barnett's shooting did not live up to the hype.

It's pretty close. Their 3P%es were exactly the same at SLU if you throw out Barnett's freshman year entirely. Although I admit I never would've guessed Cassity shot close to 50% on two pointers until I went back and looked at the numbers.

[billikenfan05]

Willie gave more effort, in my recollection. Milik just doesnt play hard.

i would disagree. I think Willie just understood how to use his skill.

[billiken_roy]

Willie gave more effort, in my recollection. Milik just doesnt play hard.

i disagree with this. i say yarbrough has always played hard. i say he doesnt play smart and by watching his game you have to question his team attitude. that said, the fact that crews let him play like that makes me think that crews not only didnt mind the seemingly selfishness point forward attempt he might have been behind it. nothing else explains why any coach would have allowed it to go on so long.

[Duff Man]

It's pretty close. Their 3P%es were exactly the same at SLU if you throw out Barnett's freshman year entirely. Although I admit I never would've guessed Cassity shot close to 50% on two pointers until I went back and looked at the numbers.

No. Their 3%es were pretty close - Cassity was marginally better - making 31.831% (113 of 355) to Barnett's 31.7536% (67 of 211). - not exactly the same. But their overall FG% (39.1 to 34.1) is not close at all, and eFG% (48.5 to 46.2) and True Shooting% (49.8 to 48.9) all favor Cassity.

Now, if you throw out Cassity's freshman year and compare 3-year apples to apples, Cassity's edge increases across the board.

The only real way to argue Barnett was a better shooter than Cassity is to base it on the potential she showed his freshman year at Toledo...which brings us back to the original point that Barnett never lived up to his shooting hype. To suggest he was a better shooter than Cassity is an insult to Cassity.

[majerus mojo]

An insult? Please. At the end of the day, you were pleasantly surprised when either's 3-point attempt went in

[TheChosenOne]

Part of the legend of the 2014 seniors has become really, really exaggerating how bad they were as freshmen so you can rave about how much they improved. Seems pretty unnecessary and a little insulting to me.

One of the keys was that we were able to stack 3 classes of quality players who all contributed to the turnaround (Conklin/Cassity/originally Mitchell/Reed, Ellis/Remekun/Mitchell/originally Salecich, and Jett/Evans/Loe/McCall/Barnett). I felt like that 2009-2010 season was the beginning (23 win season led by sophomores Mitchell/Reed/Conklin/Cassity and freshmen Ellis/Salecich/Jordan) with the young guys learning how to win and then we had the situation which stole a year. However, while the situation knocked us off track for that one season with the loss of Willie for good and Kwamain for a season, it allowed that 2014 class to step into significant roles as freshmen. Then when Kwamain returned the following season we had a really talented and experienced team with contributions from seniors (Conklin becoming a beast), juniors, and sophomores.

It is interesting when people talk about how bad the 2014 seniors were when they were freshmen and while we only won 12 games, the number aren't that bad especially in comparison to the past two seasons:

Pomeroy rankings:

2010-2011 season - ranked 129 (257 in adjusted offensive efficiency/35 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2014-2015 season - ranked 298 (317 in adjusted offensive efficiency/186 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2015-2016 season (currently) - ranked 248 (296 in adjusted offensive efficiency/180 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

[Cowboy]

One of the keys was that we were able to stack 3 classes of quality players who all contributed to the turnaround (Conklin/Cassity/originally Mitchell/Reed, Ellis/Remekun/Mitchell/originally Salecich, and Jett/Evans/Loe/McCall/Barnett). I felt like that 2009-2010 season was the beginning (23 win season led by sophomores Mitchell/Reed/Conklin/Cassity and freshmen Ellis/Salecich/Jordan) with the young guys learning how to win and then we had the situation which stole a year. However, while the situation knocked us off track for that one season with the loss of Willie for good and Kwamain for a season, it allowed that 2014 class to step into significant roles as freshmen. Then when Kwamain returned the following season we had a really talented and experienced team with contributions from seniors (Conklin becoming a beast), juniors, and sophomores.

It is interesting when people talk about how bad the 2014 seniors were when they were freshmen and while we only won 12 games, the number aren't that bad especially in comparison to the past two seasons:

Pomeroy rankings:

2010-2011 season - ranked 129 (257 in adjusted offensive efficiency/35 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2014-2015 season - ranked 298 (317 in adjusted offensive efficiency/186 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2015-2016 season (currently) - ranked 248 (296 in adjusted offensive efficiency/180 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

-that group had a HOF coach

[TheChosenOne]

-that group had a HOF coach

Obviously. I do think looking beyond just Majerus, there was a lot of talent on those teams (you can't win without talent and if anything we learned that with Majerus). We had a really nice group of talented, tough, and skilled players who completely bought into playing the system that Majerus coached into them. Man those teams were fun to watch. Just so disciplined and tough. Watching them defend was a thing of beauty.

[hsmith19]

No. Their 3%es were pretty close - Cassity was marginally better - making 31.831% (113 of 355) to Barnett's 31.7536% (67 of 211). - not exactly the same. But their overall FG% (39.1 to 34.1) is not close at all, and eFG% (48.5 to 46.2) and True Shooting% (49.8 to 48.9) all favor Cassity.

Now, if you throw out Cassity's freshman year and compare 3-year apples to apples, Cassity's edge increases across the board.

The only real way to argue Barnett was a better shooter than Cassity is to base it on the potential she showed his freshman year at Toledo...which brings us back to the original point that Barnett never lived up to his shooting hype. To suggest he was a better shooter than Cassity is an insult to Cassity.

Yes, by "exactly" I meant when rounded to three digits. If you want to split the hairs finer, have at it, but the only reason I dropped Barnett's freshman year is because he spent it somewhere other than SLU. The three year comparison is never going to be apples to apples because their career patterns were almost mirror images. Cassity played a ton as a sophomore and was barely used as a senior by the time the team made its tourney run. Barnett was barely used as a sophomore but was forced into an integral role on a tourney team as a senior.

Cassity was way better at 2s. Barnett was a little better at 3s and quite a bit better at free throws.

Cassity career: .497 2P%, .318 3P%, .655 FT%, .498 TS%, .495 eFG%

Barnett career: .385 2P%, .342 3P%, .741 FT%, .501 TS%, .466 eFG%

So like I said, I think it's pretty close. Part of the question is what you mean by "shooter"--Cassity was way better at driving to the basket, as reflected by his 2P%. Not really what I think of when weighing "shooting" ability, though. Cassity was also more a facilitator and Barnett's role was more of a spot up shooter. I also give Barnett bonus points for the handful of huge baskets he made in huge games. Not intended as an insult to Cassity (my mom knew his mom and I always enjoyed watching him play), just credit where it's due.

Back to the original point, I think Cassity/Barnett/Crawford are all pretty close. Cassity was probably the most well-rounded player of the three, but the last I'd choose to make a basket with the game on the line. Feel free to disagree, of course.

[hsmith19]

It is interesting when people talk about how bad the 2014 seniors were when they were freshmen and while we only won 12 games, the number aren't that bad especially in comparison to the past two seasons:

Pomeroy rankings:

2010-2011 season - ranked 129 (257 in adjusted offensive efficiency/35 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2014-2015 season - ranked 298 (317 in adjusted offensive efficiency/186 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

2015-2016 season (currently) - ranked 248 (296 in adjusted offensive efficiency/180 in adjusted defensive efficiency)

Just on an individual basis, I think the 2010 freshmen's numbers were better than people tend to remember on here. Loe had 106 boards (38 on the offensive end) and 20 blocks. McCall had 93 assists and 31 steals. Jett had 75 and 44. Evans had 200+ boards and five or six double doubles.

[NextYearBill]

I will always favor the old Rams uniforms mostly due to the fact they were successful on the field in them. I will always favor these billiken uniforms for the same reason.... nothing wrong with what we had

[Clock_Tower]

Actually, Jett's sophomore year turned out to be his personal best in terms of turnover rate. It's true it was really high his freshman year, but this idea that he was so out of control and such a "liability" for his first two years really tends to get overblown in hindsight. It was early his sophomore year he had his coming out party against Villanova. And he almost never started until his senior year, but he was the team's best defender (and way better than anybody we have now) well before that.

And even as a freshman, Loe was leaps and bounds above Gillmann/Jolly/Neufeld in terms of rebounding, shot blocking, and overall post play. Not only do the numbers show it, but if you watched any of the games back then you'd have to engage in some real revisionist remembering to convince yourself otherwise.

Part of the legend of the 2014 seniors has become really, really exaggerating how bad they were as freshmen so you can rave about how much they improved. Seems pretty unnecessary and a little insulting to me.

19. Typical and tiring response from you. Only you are making such comparisons. Not once did I say that any player on this year's team is a good or better than arguably the best class in modern Billiken basketball. Wow. Your basketball insight has reached another peak -- Rob Loe was better than Gillman/Neufeld and even Jolly!! Brilliant. Exaggerations? You are insulted? Good stuff!!

As is usual, you are intentionally missing the whole point. Even with the best class in modern Billiken basketball (an obvious example of our program's goal for recruiting), player development was greatly needed -- and also provided. And yes, those guys were motivated, challenged and taught by one of the game's best teachers, a true perfectionist, from day 1. And yes, as time went on during their first year, each of them got better. And yes, the team did gel or "come together" by the end of the season. And yes, each did exhibit signs of real talent and ability amid their learning moments and losing season.

In contrast, I cannot honestly say that Crews' recruits/players/teams have shown anything close to such development. Last year's team never gelled or "came together" - instead they played worse down the stretch. This year's team sure looked better at the beginning of the year than recently and I am not seeing any signs that this year's team is gelling. And while Miles and Reggie have sure come a long way from last year, Roby has had many games this year where he looks lost on the floor and much worse than last year. Possibly hampered by injury, Marcus is playing worse than last year. Same with Malik who dominated games and stretches of games last year, who began drawing double teams and/or the other teams' better defensive players and whose points per game are down from last year -- only 5.5 ppg during conference games this year. Gillman is now injured but appeared to have fallen behind Jolly on the depth chart this year. And Neufeld, despite his size, extra year of prep school and all the expectations and hype, has become a non-factor on this year's really bad team - a fixture on the bench,

[billiken_roy]

19. Typical and tiring response from you. Only you are making such comparisons. Not once did I say that any player on this year's team is a good or better than arguably the best class in modern Billiken basketball. Wow. Your basketball insight has reached another peak -- Rob Loe was better than Gillman/Neufeld and even Jolly!! Brilliant. Exaggerations? You are insulted? Good stuff!!

As is usual, you are intentionally missing the whole point. Even with the best class in modern Billiken basketball (an obvious example of our program's goal for recruiting), player development was greatly needed -- and also provided. And yes, those guys were motivated, challenged and taught by one of the game's best teachers, a true perfectionist, from day 1. And yes, as time went on during their first year, each of them got better. And yes, the team did gel or "come together" by the end of the season. And yes, each did exhibit signs of real talent and ability amid their learning moments and losing season.

In contrast, I cannot honestly say that Crews' recruits/players/teams have shown anything close to such development. Last year's team never gelled or "came together" - instead they played worse down the stretch. This year's team sure looked better at the beginning of the year than recently and I am not seeing any signs that this year's team is gelling. And while Miles and Reggie have sure come a long way from last year, Roby has had many games this year where he looks lost on the floor and much worse than last year. Possibly hampered by injury, Marcus is playing worse than last year. Same with Malik who dominated games and stretches of games last year, who began drawing double teams and/or the other teams' better defensive players and whose points per game are down from last year -- only 5.5 ppg during conference games this year. Gillman is now injured but appeared to have fallen behind Jolly on the depth chart this year. And Neufeld, despite his size, extra year of prep school and all the expectations and hype, has become a non-factor on this year's really bad team - a fixture on the bench,

In summary the worst roster in decades.

[SLU_Nick]

If you gave Crews all the recruiting classes that Majerus had in the exact same sequence, Crews wouldnt have made the NIT. I honestly believe that.

Conversely, if you gave Majerus all the current players, he would be NIT bound. The only reason I dont say NCAA is bc our bigs are some of the least talented players in all of D1.

[Cowboy]

-35 days until March 10

[billiken_roy]

If you gave Crews all the recruiting classes that Majerus had in the exact same sequence, Crews wouldnt have made the NIT. I honestly believe that.

Conversely, if you gave Majerus all the current players, he would be NIT bound. The only reason I dont say NCAA is bc our bigs are some of the least talented players in all of D1.

I doubt rickma would have kept any of this roster beyond one year except maybe crawford (he seems to be the player most rickma minded imo). He would have cut and recruited over this roster. So no, rickma would nor have this team in the NIT. He wouldn't have this team.

[kshoe]

If you gave Crews all the recruiting classes that Majerus had in the exact same sequence, Crews wouldnt have made the NIT. I honestly believe that.

Conversely, if you gave Majerus all the current players, he would be NIT bound. The only reason I dont say NCAA is bc our bigs are some of the least talented players in all of D1.

Are you arguing that Jett, Evans, loe, etc. learned everything about basketball in their 2 years under majerus and never got any better under crews?

Because the fact is that crews did take the recruiting classes that majerus put together to the the second round of two ncaa tournaments. So I don't really understand your comment that crews wouldn't be able to take them to the nit.

[brianstl]

Are you arguing that Jett, Evans, loe, etc. learned everything about basketball in their 2 years under majerus and never got any better under crews?

Because the fact is that crews did take the recruiting classes that majerus put together to the the second round of two ncaa tournaments. So I don't really understand your comment that crews wouldn't be able to take them to the nit.

I thought McCall and Evans regressed their senior season.

[hsmith19]

19. Typical and tiring response from you. Only you are making such comparisons. Not once did I say that any player on this year's team is a good or better than arguably the best class in modern Billiken basketball. Wow. Your basketball insight has reached another peak -- Rob Loe was better than Gillman/Neufeld and even Jolly!! Brilliant. Exaggerations? You are insulted? Good stuff!!

As is usual, you are intentionally missing the whole point. Even with the best class in modern Billiken basketball (an obvious example of our program's goal for recruiting), player development was greatly needed -- and also provided. And yes, those guys were motivated, challenged and taught by one of the game's best teachers, a true perfectionist, from day 1. And yes, as time went on during their first year, each of them got better. And yes, the team did gel or "come together" by the end of the season. And yes, each did exhibit signs of real talent and ability amid their learning moments and losing season.

In contrast, I cannot honestly say that Crews' recruits/players/teams have shown anything close to such development. Last year's team never gelled or "came together" - instead they played worse down the stretch. This year's team sure looked better at the beginning of the year than recently and I am not seeing any signs that this year's team is gelling. And while Miles and Reggie have sure come a long way from last year, Roby has had many games this year where he looks lost on the floor and much worse than last year. Possibly hampered by injury, Marcus is playing worse than last year. Same with Malik who dominated games and stretches of games last year, who began drawing double teams and/or the other teams' better defensive players and whose points per game are down from last year -- only 5.5 ppg during conference games this year. Gillman is now injured but appeared to have fallen behind Jolly on the depth chart this year. And Neufeld, despite his size, extra year of prep school and all the expectations and hype, has become a non-factor on this year's really bad team - a fixture on the bench,

This is a whole lot of words. I'm sure you think you're arguing some kind of point here, but I certainly have no idea what it is. That Jett, Loe, McCall, and Evans were better as sophomores than they were as freshmen, and better as seniors than as sophomores? Oh boy, what a revelation! Putting those Jesuit argumentation skills to work, I see.

You brought up the 2010 freshmen and talked about how bad they were as some kind of proof that the problem with the current team is merely less "development" rather than less talent. But the 2010 freshmen not only showed a lot of talent but produced some very impressive statistical results on the court. Your idea that they were this trainwreck (Jett a "liability" and Loe "weak"--your exact words) is simply not true, no matter how much you bluster and contradict yourself when called on it.

In short, Roy is absolutely right that the 2010 freshmen were better the moment they arrived on campus than the 2014 freshmen. I agree it's bizarre that you chose to try arguing with him on this point, but that's exactly what you did.

[hsmith19]

I doubt rickma would have kept any of this roster beyond one year except maybe crawford (he seems to be the player most rickma minded imo). He would have cut and recruited over this roster. So no, rickma would nor have this team in the NIT. He wouldn't have this team.

Not sure Crawford defends or rebounds well enough to crack Majerus' rotation.

[SLU_Nick]

Are you arguing that Jett, Evans, loe, etc. learned everything about basketball in their 2 years under majerus and never got any better under crews?

Because the fact is that crews did take the recruiting classes that majerus put together to the the second round of two ncaa tournaments. So I don't really understand your comment that crews wouldn't be able to take them to the nit.

Yes, that is what I am saying. Majerus molded them so well those first 2 years, that they became only marginally better as they got stronger and became more experienced.

If Crews had them for 4 years right out of high school, they would not make the NIT. JJ, DE, MM, KM would have been playing some faux motion offense that doesnt work, never learn how to set screens, play defense, or rebound.

Edit: And if you gave them to Soderberg, he would have been sniffing the NCAA tourney.

The SLU coaching value equation is below.

Majerus > Soderberg > Slufanskip > Crews

[hsmith19]

They only spent one week at #23 and only won two postseason games in 2011 under Majerus. Crews might have had nothing to do with it, but they won five postseason games, spent 13 weeks nationally ranked, and reached the top 10 in the next two years. So Crews certainly didn't hold that team back from improving as a whole. That's the problem with assuming Crews' problem is all lack of "development." The fact is he just didn't bring in players to compare with what Majerus left him.

[billiken_roy]

Not sure Crawford defends or rebounds well enough to crack Majerus' rotation.

I never said crawford would start or even play. Just rickma would have him on the roster. The degree he would participate isn't clear to me. Some games I think he might be barnett or cassity worthy other games I think he is below rotation worthy. I do not think he'd be a star. That said I admire crawford for his approach to the games and the high level of basics he possesses. He reminds me some games of highmark the way he plays. Not saying he is at Scott's level, just style, attitude and effort are similar.

[kshoe]

They only spent one week at #23 and only won two postseason games in 2011 under Majerus. Crews might have had nothing to do with it, but they won five postseason games, spent 13 weeks nationally ranked, and reached the top 10 in the next two years. So Crews certainly didn't hold that team back from improving as a whole. That's the problem with assuming Crews' problem is all lack of "development." The fact is he just didn't bring in players to compare with what Majerus left him.

Agreed. If I had to allocate the current horrible status of the team its 80% recruiting and 20% coaching/player development.

I simply can't buy the "crews can't coach" to the extreme view that others seem to be taking. After all, the two most successful years in modern history were under his coaching watch.