Three Years Ago Tonight

[wgstl]

Speaking of Butler, wasn't there a rumor that Rotnei Clarke was going to transfer to SLU when he was leaving Arkansas, but Anderson told him he couldn't transfer to a school in Missouri? I thought I remembered reading that on here years ago. If that was true, how good would that team have been if you added possibly the best 3-point shooter in the country?

Yes that is true

[Clock_Tower]

You need to really stack the talent. You really need to go eight to nine deep with talented players. For all the crap a guy like Cassity took on here, he was a pretty damn good basketball player. He would at a minimum be the second best basketball player on this current roster.

Not true. Cassity did so some good things as you point out and does have truly good skills but only as a role player. In fact, he cracked under game pressure and did not want the ball in his hands with shot clock ticking down. If the number 2 on any team, it will be a bad team.

[slufan13]

Not true. Cassity did so some good things as you point out and does have truly good skills but only as a role player. In fact, he cracked under game pressure and did not want the ball in his hands with shot clock ticking down. If the number 2 on any team, it will be a bad team.

This is a really bad team.

[brianstl]

This is a really bad team.

Exactly, this team sucks. Cassity would be the second best player on this team.

I was not implying that Cassity could carry a great team, but he was a good D1 basketball player. The fact is, good D1 basketball players are the guys that fill the 7th spot on most really good basketball teams. IMO, the team Cassity's senior season was the best Billiken team in my lifetime. With almost any other draw, I think that team makes it to the Elite Eight. Michigan St was the absolute worst match up for that team.

[Clock_Tower]

It all comes down to recruiting when you watch the good times pasts. One recruiting class made such a big difference, MM, DE, RL, JJ and of course there were several other pieces that made it all work but when you look at what those four did in their senior year I just do not see that type of level being achieved by the 6 sophomores, I hope I am wrong.

Disagree.

Player development is more important than recruiting. Over these past 40 years and under several coaches, our recruiting has always been inferior to our competition but our player development (coaching, systems, discipline, etc.) has been superior. We have always done more with less. Player development has allowed us to win more than we lose. And when we ran into a team which did both (recruiting and player development), the result usually ended in a loss.. At the same time, it allowed us to be competitive and to pull an upset over such a team every now and then and also to get to the NCAA Tourney every several years.

Do you not remember how wild Jordair Jett was as a Freshman and Sophomore? a liability. a turnover machine. One this board's more respected posters even wondered if JJ too would leave/transfer after his Sophomore year. Instead, JJ stayed, he settled down in his JR year, he took over a starting role and his SR year he was the A10 Player of the Year.

Do you not remember how weak and ineffective Rob Loe was as a Freshman? Yes, he hit some outside shots every so often but he also got pushed around like a rag doll, failed to rebound, block players out and provided no inside scoring threat his Freshman year into most of his Sophomore year. As a JR, he was much improved, his outside shot remained good and by his SR year he was arguably the best player on the floor in certain games -- and that was a truly special team.

If you call these 2 examples of great recruiting, then maybe we misunderstand each other. To me, recruiting implies good production from the start. Instead, I call these 2 examples of starting with a raw talent but then developing the same to turn this talent into top shelf players.

As to the current players, the length and shooting ability of Bartley is rather special but he continues to lack of defense, dribbling/PG skills and overall strength. As to Malik, he showed me more last year as a Freshman where he was truly special during certain games and/or stretches of games. With his size, scoring ability and ball handling skills for a bigger guy, etc. I see a real talent but then I watch his poor decision making, his lack of defense, blocking out and rebounding, his lack of establishing himself as a post player and I see what could have been with good coaching. Does Bartley and/or Malik have NBA potential and talent? most likely not. But these are 2 guys who, if better developed, could be providing what this team is sorely lacking.

[Clock_Tower]

Exactly, this team sucks. Cassity would be the second best player on this team.

I was not implying that Cassity could carry a great team, but he was a good D1 basketball player. The fact is, good D1 basketball players are the guys that fill the 7th spot on most really good basketball teams. IMO, the team Cassity's senior season was the best Billiken team in my lifetime. With almost any other draw, I think that team makes it to the Elite Eight. Michigan St was the absolute worst match up for that team.

OK. I understand you better. To me, calling a guy the #2 best on this team implies he would help this team win. And I believe he wouldn't. And with Jim Crew's developing him from his Freshman year forward, I believe he would be worse than the players we now have.

[Box and Won]

After looking at those photos and then pondering the current state of the program...

[billikenfan05]

I rewatched that entire game. It was therapeutic

[Cowboy]

Disagree.

Player development is more important than recruiting. Over these past 40 years and under several coaches, our recruiting has always been inferior to our competition but our player development (coaching, systems, discipline, etc.) has been superior. We have always done more with less. Player development has allowed us to win more than we lose. And when we ran into a team which did both (recruiting and player development), the result usually ended in a loss.. At the same time, it allowed us to be competitive and to pull an upset over such a team every now and then and also to get to the NCAA Tourney every several years.

Do you not remember how wild Jordair Jett was as a Freshman and Sophomore? a liability. a turnover machine. One this board's more respected posters even wondered if JJ too would leave/transfer after his Sophomore year. Instead, JJ stayed, he settled down in his JR year, he took over a starting role and his SR year he was the A10 Player of the Year.

Do you not remember how weak and ineffective Rob Loe was as a Freshman? Yes, he hit some outside shots every so often but he also got pushed around like a rag doll, failed to rebound, block players out and provided no inside scoring threat his Freshman year into most of his Sophomore year. As a JR, he was much improved, his outside shot remained good and by his SR year he was arguably the best player on the floor in certain games -- and that was a truly special team.

If you call these 2 examples of great recruiting, then maybe we misunderstand each other. To me, recruiting implies good production from the start. Instead, I call these 2 examples of starting with a raw talent but then developing the same to turn this talent into top shelf players.

As to the current players, the length and shooting ability of Bartley is rather special but he continues to lack of defense, dribbling/PG skills and overall strength. As to Malik, he showed me more last year as a Freshman where he was truly special during certain games and/or stretches of games. With his size, scoring ability and ball handling skills for a bigger guy, etc. I see a real talent but then I watch his poor decision making, his lack of defense, blocking out and rebounding, his lack of establishing himself as a post player and I see what could have been with good coaching. Does Bartley and/or Malik have NBA potential and talent? most likely not. But these are 2 guys who, if better developed, could be providing what this team is sorely lacking.

-the defense of the entire team is horrible, if you want to get into rebounding we can do that too, as that is also horrible, so unfortunately pointing out one or two players in these areas seems like overkill

[CBFan]

Disagree.

Player development is more important than recruiting. Over these past 40 years and under several coaches, our recruiting has always been inferior to our competition but our player development (coaching, systems, discipline, etc.) has been superior. We have always done more with less. Player development has allowed us to win more than we lose. And when we ran into a team which did both (recruiting and player development), the result usually ended in a loss.. At the same time, it allowed us to be competitive and to pull an upset over such a team every now and then and also to get to the NCAA Tourney every several years.

Do you not remember how wild Jordair Jett was as a Freshman and Sophomore? a liability. a turnover machine. One this board's more respected posters even wondered if JJ too would leave/transfer after his Sophomore year. Instead, JJ stayed, he settled down in his JR year, he took over a starting role and his SR year he was the A10 Player of the Year.

Do you not remember how weak and ineffective Rob Loe was as a Freshman? Yes, he hit some outside shots every so often but he also got pushed around like a rag doll, failed to rebound, block players out and provided no inside scoring threat his Freshman year into most of his Sophomore year. As a JR, he was much improved, his outside shot remained good and by his SR year he was arguably the best player on the floor in certain games -- and that was a truly special team.

If you call these 2 examples of great recruiting, then maybe we misunderstand each other. To me, recruiting implies good production from the start. Instead, I call these 2 examples of starting with a raw talent but then developing the same to turn this talent into top shelf players.

As to the current players, the length and shooting ability of Bartley is rather special but he continues to lack of defense, dribbling/PG skills and overall strength. As to Malik, he showed me more last year as a Freshman where he was truly special during certain games and/or stretches of games. With his size, scoring ability and ball handling skills for a bigger guy, etc. I see a real talent but then I watch his poor decision making, his lack of defense, blocking out and rebounding, his lack of establishing himself as a post player and I see what could have been with good coaching. Does Bartley and/or Malik have NBA potential and talent? most likely not. But these are 2 guys who, if better developed, could be providing what this team is sorely lacking.

I do remember the bad plays from Jodair and Rob but I also remember the good that gave me hope. I remember when the fans chanted we want Rob Loe while recruiting Rob. I completely agree with you about Milik and Bartley and I hope to see Milik playing soon. I was really excited when they signed Bartley and I thought Bartley would be the best of the class. I really appreciate your comments.

[billiken_roy]

Disagree.

Player development is more important than recruiting. Over these past 40 years and under several coaches, our recruiting has always been inferior to our competition but our player development (coaching, systems, discipline, etc.) has been superior. We have always done more with less. Player development has allowed us to win more than we lose. And when we ran into a team which did both (recruiting and player development), the result usually ended in a loss.. At the same time, it allowed us to be competitive and to pull an upset over such a team every now and then and also to get to the NCAA Tourney every several years.

Do you not remember how wild Jordair Jett was as a Freshman and Sophomore? a liability. a turnover machine. One this board's more respected posters even wondered if JJ too would leave/transfer after his Sophomore year. Instead, JJ stayed, he settled down in his JR year, he took over a starting role and his SR year he was the A10 Player of the Year.

Do you not remember how weak and ineffective Rob Loe was as a Freshman? Yes, he hit some outside shots every so often but he also got pushed around like a rag doll, failed to rebound, block players out and provided no inside scoring threat his Freshman year into most of his Sophomore year. As a JR, he was much improved, his outside shot remained good and by his SR year he was arguably the best player on the floor in certain games -- and that was a truly special team.

If you call these 2 examples of great recruiting, then maybe we misunderstand each other. To me, recruiting implies good production from the start. Instead, I call these 2 examples of starting with a raw talent but then developing the same to turn this talent into top shelf players.

As to the current players, the length and shooting ability of Bartley is rather special but he continues to lack of defense, dribbling/PG skills and overall strength. As to Malik, he showed me more last year as a Freshman where he was truly special during certain games and/or stretches of games. With his size, scoring ability and ball handling skills for a bigger guy, etc. I see a real talent but then I watch his poor decision making, his lack of defense, blocking out and rebounding, his lack of establishing himself as a post player and I see what could have been with good coaching. Does Bartley and/or Malik have NBA potential and talent? most likely not. But these are 2 guys who, if better developed, could be providing what this team is sorely lacking.

We don't have a single player on this team that is a freshman Jordair jett, d evans, Mike mccall, or rob loe. I agree those 4 improved greatly in their four years bUT the canvass to begin with was a much higher level from the start.

[Soderball]

You need to really stack the talent. You really need to go eight to nine deep with talented players. For all the crap a guy like Cassity took on here, he was a pretty damn good basketball player. He would at a minimum be the second best basketball player on this current roster.

Cassity would be the best player on this team by far.

He was a second stringer on the tournament teams.

Says a lot.

[majerus mojo]

Exactly, this team sucks. Cassity would be the second best player on this team.

I was not implying that Cassity could carry a great team, but he was a good D1 basketball player. The fact is, good D1 basketball players are the guys that fill the 7th spot on most really good basketball teams. IMO, the team Cassity's senior season was the best Billiken team in my lifetime. With almost any other draw, I think that team makes it to the Elite Eight. Michigan St was the absolute worst match up for that team.

I get a kick out of how amazingly Draymond's game has translated to the NBA. Single-handily handed Majerus his final L, and snuffed out our S16 chances. I think he went 16-12-6 in that game? Couple big buckets late. Good for him. Izzo is a genius

[moytoy12]

We don't have a single player on this team that is a freshman Jordair jett, d evans, Mike mccall, or rob loe. I agree those 4 improved greatly in their four years bUT the canvass to begin with was a much higher level from the start.

I agree the talent level isn't high, but I disagree with your statement. JB reminds me of those guys. The freshman version of Milik reminded me of those guys. Ok, crap, we don't have much talent. I can only think of 2 guys that kind of sort of remind me of those guys.

[hsmith19]

Cassity would be the best player on this team by far.

He was a second stringer on the tournament teams.

Says a lot.

Cassity only played on the first tournament team, and I'm not sure I'd call him a second stringer. His role got steadily smaller throughout that season, and he was the last guy on the bench by the end of the regular season.

I think he'd be a pretty close match for both Barnett and Crawford. Cassity was probably the worst shooter of the three but the best passer and defender (although Barnett got a lot better defensively while he was here).

[cgeldmacher]

Disagree.

Player development is more important than recruiting. Over these past 40 years and under several coaches, our recruiting has always been inferior to our competition but our player development (coaching, systems, discipline, etc.) has been superior. We have always done more with less. Player development has allowed us to win more than we lose. And when we ran into a team which did both (recruiting and player development), the result usually ended in a loss.. At the same time, it allowed us to be competitive and to pull an upset over such a team every now and then and also to get to the NCAA Tourney every several years.

Do you not remember how wild Jordair Jett was as a Freshman and Sophomore? a liability. a turnover machine. One this board's more respected posters even wondered if JJ too would leave/transfer after his Sophomore year. Instead, JJ stayed, he settled down in his JR year, he took over a starting role and his SR year he was the A10 Player of the Year.

Do you not remember how weak and ineffective Rob Loe was as a Freshman? Yes, he hit some outside shots every so often but he also got pushed around like a rag doll, failed to rebound, block players out and provided no inside scoring threat his Freshman year into most of his Sophomore year. As a JR, he was much improved, his outside shot remained good and by his SR year he was arguably the best player on the floor in certain games -- and that was a truly special team.

If you call these 2 examples of great recruiting, then maybe we misunderstand each other. To me, recruiting implies good production from the start. Instead, I call these 2 examples of starting with a raw talent but then developing the same to turn this talent into top shelf players.

As to the current players, the length and shooting ability of Bartley is rather special but he continues to lack of defense, dribbling/PG skills and overall strength. As to Malik, he showed me more last year as a Freshman where he was truly special during certain games and/or stretches of games. With his size, scoring ability and ball handling skills for a bigger guy, etc. I see a real talent but then I watch his poor decision making, his lack of defense, blocking out and rebounding, his lack of establishing himself as a post player and I see what could have been with good coaching. Does Bartley and/or Malik have NBA potential and talent? most likely not. But these are 2 guys who, if better developed, could be providing what this team is sorely lacking.

The more and more I ponder the question of talent vs. development, the more I agree with Clock. This subject could probably get its own entire thread. As I look at the guys currently on the team, they don't look all that different to me than the guys that Majerus brought in when they first got here. I really believe that Crews has not done a terrible job of recruiting. Instead, he and the staff aren't taking the guys he's recruiting and making them better individually, putting them in systems that can work, and convincing them to play with a team first concept.

In my somewhat uneducated opinion, therein lies our/Crews's problem.

[hsmith19]

Actually, Jett's sophomore year turned out to be his personal best in terms of turnover rate. It's true it was really high his freshman year, but this idea that he was so out of control and such a "liability" for his first two years really tends to get overblown in hindsight. It was early his sophomore year he had his coming out party against Villanova. And he almost never started until his senior year, but he was the team's best defender (and way better than anybody we have now) well before that.

And even as a freshman, Loe was leaps and bounds above Gillmann/Jolly/Neufeld in terms of rebounding, shot blocking, and overall post play. Not only do the numbers show it, but if you watched any of the games back then you'd have to engage in some real revisionist remembering to convince yourself otherwise.

Part of the legend of the 2014 seniors has become really, really exaggerating how bad they were as freshmen so you can rave about how much they improved. Seems pretty unnecessary and a little insulting to me.

[Cowboy]

-if it's a lack of talent, that goes to the total ball of very important wax that is recruiting and that falls on the coach

-if there is talent that isn't performing due to effort, part of that is on the players but the coach recruited them so part of this falls on the coach

-if there is talent that isn't performing due to the system that is on the coach

-so slicing the issue any way there is a big problem at the top

[slu72]

As I remember Cassity, he had good handles, good at setting screens, and very careful w/ the ball. His hesitancy to take open shots was frustrating. He also could drive to the hoop but did it so infrequently it was frustrating. He lost minutes to McCall, because Junior raised his game on D big time and was a better scorer.

[slu72]

The more and more I ponder the question of talent vs. development, the more I agree with Clock. This subject could probably get its own entire thread. As I look at the guys currently on the team, the don't look all that different to me than the guys that Majerus brought in when they first got here. I really believe that Crews has not done a terrible job of recruiting. Instead, he and the staff aren't taking the guys he's recruiting and making them better individually, putting them in systems that can work, and convincing them to play with a team first concept.

In my somewhat uneducated opinion, therein lies our/Crews's problem.

There were times last year I thought Milik had more talent than DE. But as the season progressed you could see he wasn't learning how to compete in D1 ball.

[billikenfan05]

Milik is freshman Willie Reed between the ears

[slufan13]

Part of the legend of the 2014 seniors has become really, really exaggerating how bad they were as freshmen so you can rave about how much they improved. Seems pretty unnecessary and a little insulting to me.

Been thinking this exact thought. Thank you.

[Duff Man]

Cassity only played on the first tournament team, and I'm not sure I'd call him a second stringer. His role got steadily smaller throughout that season, and he was the last guy on the bench by the end of the regular season.

I think he'd be a pretty close match for both Barnett and Crawford. Cassity was probably the worst shooter of the three but the best passer and defender (although Barnett got a lot better defensively while he was here).

Cassity was a better shooter than Barnett if you look at the numbers. Barnett's shooting did not live up to the hype.

and yeah...the 2010-11 team struggled early, but by the end of the year they were blowing out Dayton at UD Arena on Chris Wright Sr night (the final chapter of Majerus v Gregory)

[Soderball]

Milik is freshman Willie Reed between the ears

Willie gave more effort, in my recollection. Milik just doesnt play hard.

[brianstl]

Willie gave more effort, in my recollection. Milik just doesnt play hard.

Willie was an idiot off the court. On the court he got himself in shape and improved as the season went along. That is why he was able to get away with some of the stuff he pulled off the court.