Marquette Hires Wojo

[sludevil]

Don't fool yourself there are plenty of boys and girls that get into these schools because of who Daddy or Mommy is too. You can certainly study hard but you could hide out too. They have their equivalent basket weaving classes. The sports thing happens at almost all schools.

Right. We can speculate all day as to the reason behind Amaker's/Dawkins'/Collins' recruiting success, but the plain fact is that their respective schools just weren't pulling (or even in the running) for high-caliber recruits until they got there.

[brianstl]

Right. We can speculate all day as to the reason behind Amaker's/Dawkins'/Collins' recruiting success, but the plain fact is that their respective schools just weren't pulling (or even in the running) for high-caliber recruits until they got there.

Collins has landed one top recruit. Dawkins's is at a school that has produced as many current NBA players as Syracuse. Zero of those players were recruited by Dawkins. The Amaker situation is special. He convinced Harvard to change the way they look at basketball. He deserves credit for that. That said, they now operate differently than anyone else in the Ivy. That gives Amaker a recruiting advantage over his peers.

I would give Amaker credit for having recruiting success that didn't exist before at his school. It is to early to make a call on Collins. Dawkins has actually had less recruiting success than people that previously coached at Stanford.

[bonwich]

What's the current scholarship status at Harvard? I thought the Ivy League prohibited athletic scholarships.

[JMM28]

I believe I posted this earlier, but why is everyone acting like Chris Collins has achieved something at Northwestern already? He finished the year 5 games below .500 at 14-19. His recruiting has been ok so far. Outside of Vic Law, it is similar to what Carmody was doing there, signing a bunch of 3 star guys.

[sludevil]

I believe I posted this earlier, but why is everyone acting like Chris Collins has achieved something at Northwestern already? He finished the year 5 games below .500 at 14-19. His recruiting has been ok so far. Outside of Vic Law, it is similar to what Carmody was doing there, signing a bunch of 3 star guys.

Has been ok? Where his predecessor was pulling mostly 2 stars with the occasional 3 star, Collins has, in his first class, pulled four 3 stars and a top-100 recruit (who is, again, the highest-rated recruit to ever commit to Northwestern). That's a hell of a good start. And, sure, this is a very small sample size, and he has a long way to go before Northwestern is competing with Ohio State and MSU, but let's not discount the success of this class. It's something no one else has been able to do.

[TaLBErt]

Yes. I am surprised that Marq couldn't poach an "up and coming head coach" from a "lower" D1 school. Also, guess they didn't have "a succession plan" like SLU is supposed to have or like X, VCU, Gonzaga, Butler, etc. have all had. I get that they couldn't attract Shaka, etc. but suggest that these would have been lateral moves (Marquette isn't as good of a program as their fans/alumni believe it is). And by comparison, we have twice promoted from within (Brad and Crews) and twice have landed existing head coaches in Spoon from SMS (Mo State) and Romar from Pepperdine.

Also, I believe what some are suggesting is that recruiting at Duke (almost more of a national recruiting base along with a Southeaster local bent due to its actual location) is much different than even recruiting at another strong program and for an equally good coach such as Michigan State/Tom Izzo (which is certainly draws kids nationally but which has a strong regional recruiting base -- the same as Marquette). I have no idea who Izzo's latest assistant coaches but I do know that prior guys have been poached. The advantage, of course, in getting a Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Iowa, etc. assistant coach is that the guy would already know the Wisconsin/Michigan/Northern-Mid-East region. Wojo will be a complete new comer to this area just like Quin was a complete new comer and the Duke name/legacy only goes so far. Then, again, if Marquette is our competition, then I think this is wonderful hire along the same lines that I think the hiring of Frank Haith was a wonderful hire!!

Preach, brotha!

[For-DaLove]

Has been ok? Where his predecessor was pulling mostly 2 stars with the occasional 3 star, Collins has, in his first class, pulled four 3 stars and a top-100 recruit (who is, again, the highest-rated recruit to ever commit to Northwestern). That's a hell of a good start. And, sure, this is a very small sample size, and he has a long way to go before Northwestern is competing with Ohio State and MSU, but let's not discount the success of this class. It's something no one else has been able to do.

But did he get any Bojangles All-Americans?

[brianstl]

Has been ok? Where his predecessor was pulling mostly 2 stars with the occasional 3 star, Collins has, in his first class, pulled four 3 stars and a top-100 recruit (who is, again, the highest-rated recruit to ever commit to Northwestern). That's a hell of a good start. And, sure, this is a very small sample size, and he has a long way to go before Northwestern is competing with Ohio State and MSU, but let's not discount the success of this class. It's something no one else has been able to do.

Northwestern's 2012 recruiting class was 4 three star recruits. Two of the 3 kids they signed in 2011 were 3 star kids. Like I said, Collins has landed one better player than Northwestern has a history of signing. And lets not act like the kid is a future lottery pick. He is a nice get, but it isn't like he is a program changing recruit.

[sludevil]

Northwestern's 2012 recruiting class was 4 three star recruits. Two of the 3 kids they signed in 2011 were 3 star kids. Like I said, Collins has landed one better player than Northwestern has a history of signing. And lets not act like the kid is a future lottery pick. He is a nice get, but it isn't like he is a program changing recruit.

Yes, Collins has landed one player that Northwestern has never been able to sign before. He's also, in the aggregate, signed a substantially better class than Northwestern typically pulls.

2014: one top-100; four 3 stars

2013: one 3 star

2012: one 3 star; three 2 stars

2011: one 3 star; two 2 stars

2010: one 2 star

Is Law a future lottery pick? Probably not. Is his signing still a huge deal for the program? Yes.

Edit: Re: Dawkins: I think that's a fair point - sometimes my Duke goggles get the best of me. But I don't agree that Dawkins has recruited at a lower level than his predecessors - particularly when he has an incoming class of four 4 stars (three of whom are top-100). He's a good recruiter, even if he hasn't taken Stanford to a new level.

[brianstl]

Yes, Collins has landed one player that Northwestern has never been able to sign before. He's also, in the aggregate, signed a substantially better class than Northwestern typically pulls.

2014: one top-100; four 3 stars

2013: one 3 star

2012: one 3 star; three 2 stars

2011: one 3 star; two 2 stars

2010: one 2 star

Is Law a future lottery pick? Probably not. Is his signing still a huge deal for the program? Yes.

Who are you using for your recruiting rankings?

Rivals has these as Carmody's last four recruiting classes......

2013-one 3 star recruit https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/basketball/recruiting/commitments/2013

2012-four 3 star recruits https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/basketball/recruiting/commitments/2012

2011-two 3 star recruits and one not rated https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/basketball/recruiting/commitments/2011

2010-one 3 star recruit https://rivals.yahoo.com/northwestern/basketball/recruiting/commitments/2010

Eight of the nine kids signed in those classes were 3 star kids. Signing 3 star kids is not new at Northwestern. It is the norm for them.

[JMM28]

Most players on their roster were 3 stars on at least one site out of Rivals Scout or ESPN.

As I said, besides Vic Law, much of the same. And an argument could be made that Law would have come there under Carmody as well based on the timeline of events.

[sludevil]

Well, ESPN seems to agree that Collins represents a significant boost in recruiting. (And I'm still not sure why everyone is discounting Law, which by himself is a milestone for the program.) In any case, the argument still stands that K guys in the aggregate have not proven to be poor recruiters. If they were incapable recruiters, we'd expect, at the very least, some sort of dropoff. We haven't seen that and, in several cases, have seen the opposite.

Though, to return to the original topic, I'm not sure why we're debating the merits of Amaker, Dawkins, and Collins when the case against Wojo based only on Wojo is considerably stronger.

[Yenlar]

What's the current scholarship status at Harvard? I thought the Ivy League prohibited athletic scholarships.

They have scholastic scholarship slotted for the athletes. So they don't have athletic scholarship. What I was told by a Harvard grad anyway.

[kshoe]

They have scholastic scholarship slotted for the athletes. So they don't have athletic scholarship. What I was told by a Harvard grad anyway.

I believe Harvard has been doing need based full ride scholarships for a while now. Basically any person that can get into school and doesn't meet certain earnings requirements will get a full ride or close to it. I suspect a fair number of student athletes could qualify for a full ride under those circumstances.

[For-DaLove]

I believe Harvard has been doing need based full ride scholarships for a while now. Basically any person that can get into school and doesn't meet certain earnings requirements will get a full ride or close to it. I suspect a fair number of student athletes could qualify for a full ride under those circumstances.

Don't be racist, kshoe

[moytoy12]

Don't be racist, kshoe

All I got from kshoe's post was "Harvard plays thug ball."

[kshoe]

Don't be racist, kshoe

Can't tell if you are serious but there's nothing inherently racist in my post. im sure you would agree that there would be a significant cross section of d1 basketball players that would qualify for harvards need based scholarship program. This includes white kids as well as black ones. Again it's completely needs based and its a way for them to get around the no scholarship rules of the Ivy League.

[Zink]

Can't tell if you are serious but there's nothing inherently racist in my post. im sure you would agree that there would be a significant cross section of d1 basketball players that would qualify for harvards need based scholarship program. This includes white kids as well as black ones. Again it's completely needs based and its a way for them to get around the no scholarship rules of the Ivy League.

I'm not positive this alone gives them an advantage. Ivy League schools (plus Duke, Stanford and MIT, I believe) have a guaranteed match program whereby each institution is required to match the greatest amount of aid offered (assuming the student has been admitted). Whether they are more willing to admit basketball recruits than the other schools would be where the potential difference comes into play.

[For-DaLove]

Can't tell if you are serious but there's nothing inherently racist in my post. im sure you would agree that there would be a significant cross section of d1 basketball players that would qualify for harvards need based scholarship program. This includes white kids as well as black ones. Again it's completely needs based and its a way for them to get around the no scholarship rules of the Ivy League.

All I got from kshoe's post was "Harvard plays thug ball."

Harvard = VCU

[slu72]

They have scholastic scholarship slotted for the athletes. So they don't have athletic scholarship. What I was told by a Harvard grad anyway.

True as told to me by a Harvard alum. Harvard has a very large pile of scholarship money for students in need, minorities, etc. A non athlete gets to tap into it if they are needy and future Mensa candidates, minorities if they are smart, others because they have a special talent, say in music or other arts. So, it's fairly easy to get an athlete w/ a solid but unspectacular academic background a scholiie, whereas they most likely couldn't get in based solely on their academics.

[MB73]

The Ivy League needs athletes for all of their sports, a difficult challenge since they do not offer athletic scholarships.

So the coaches find "very good" students that can play a sport, preferably that very good student can also pay tuition and is happy to get into the Ivy League instead of another top flight institution.

So, a guy with financial means will pay tuition to get to go to Yale to play (baseball for example) instead of a scholarship to State U. A way to get into the Ivy League.

For high profile sports like basketball, some are now giving more leeway, so I would think that Harvard has been a bit more aggressive finding athletes that 1) are not really "very good" students but good enough to squeek through school and 2) are financially needy and / or a minority, so they qualify for need based subsidies / free tuition.

They do not give academic scholarships to athletes.

This information comes from somewhat recent direct experience.

[willie]

I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article stating that something like 95% of Harvard students pay little or nothing due to their 20 billion dollar endowment.

[sludevil]

Just to add something from the horse's mouth: http://www.gocrimson.com/information/recruiting/helpfulinfo

"As an Ivy League institution, Harvard does not offer athletic or academic scholarships to students. However, Harvard does provide need-based financial aid to those students who demonstrate financial need."

So it sounds like what has been suggested (that Harvard is providing generous need-based aid to athletes) may be true.

Edit: And more specifics re: need-based aid: https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works

• 20% of our parents have total incomes less than $65,000 and are not expected to contribute.
• Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances. Families at all income levels who have significant assets will continue to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances.
• Home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.

[Old guy]

Do not confuse needs based financial aid with a scholarship, athletic or otherwise. The scholarship is a scholarship, no part of it has to be repaid and the student keeps it as long as he / she is in good standing. Needs based financial aid, meaning that the family has to contribute little to support their kid at the school, is generally a combination of outright grants and loans. The loans have to be repaid to the institution on the terms required by the institution. It is true that schools with very large endowments may CHOOSE to give outright grants to some applicant or the other and not require loan repayment, but I do not think this is a common situation. Perhaps the Ivy athletes get full outright grants instead of loans, I really do not know how they handle it there. However a loan is a loan and repayment is required.

[kshoe]

Do not confuse needs based financial aid with a scholarship, athletic or otherwise. The scholarship is a scholarship, no part of it has to be repaid and the student keeps it as long as he / she is in good standing. Needs based financial aid, meaning that the family has to contribute little to support their kid at the school, is generally a combination of outright grants and loans. The loans have to be repaid to the institution on the terms required by the institution. It is true that schools with very large endowments may CHOOSE to give outright grants to some applicant or the other and not require loan repayment, but I do not think this is a common situation. Perhaps the Ivy athletes get full outright grants instead of loans, I really do not know how they handle it there. However a loan is a loan and repayment is required.

Clearly what people are talking about here is the situation at Harvard, not the situation in general. At Harvard, it appears that need based grants are given, without requirement of repayment. These aren't loans.

For what it's worth, nobody is criticizing Harvard, just pointing out that they likely aren't really operating under a no scholarship model which is commonly presumed for Ivy League schools.