Recruiting - 2017

[3star_recruit]

I guess if they get Cook he would be one. Isn't it pretty common for programs to be offering recruits the summer before their junior seasons? Especially "local" kids who you have likely seen a lot early in their careers.

17 months from now when he is announcing his decision it may not matter when we offered or who offered first, but this one really doesn't make sense to me. Our recruiting in general leaves a lot to be desired (please save us Jayson), maybe having a massive dork and a really old guy as your lead assistants isn't the move.

Like Roy said, there really is no reason why Jordan Goodwin should not have received an offer from us at some point during his sophomore season. The kid is a beast and if the concern is his skill set for his height, well he showed the perimeter ability during their playoff run.

If you project him to be a Lisch/Liddell caliber of player then it makes perfect sense to offer early. But if he's merely a solid starter at the next level, why would be there any rush to offer right now? Those caliber of players are readily available 6 months from now.

I like Goodwin's game but if offering a 6'3 sophomore small forward without elite athleticism makes or breaks your program, you don't really have a program.

[TheChosenOne]

I like Goodwin's game but if offering a 6'3 sophomore small forward without elite athleticism makes or breaks your program, you don't really have a program.

Who said offering Goodwin makes or breaks our program? You have a different opinion of Goodwin then me and most others who have watched him play, but that is fine.

I guess I just disagree in general with your premise. Do you see Wyatt Yess as being beyond a solid starter at the next level or would you have preferred us not offering him early? If you have a local kid who is capable of being a solid starter at the next level and high-major programs are offering, wouldn't you think that maybe it would be a good idea to offer these kids. Solid starters is what we will always be signing (I am assuming that would fit the 3 star description). At some point it looks bad to have these local kids collecting high-major offers with nothing from SLU even if it is just perception and we are recruiting these kids and have just not offered. What exactly are we waiting for? At some point that has to bruise relationships. Tyler Cook had offers from programs who have won National Championships recently prior to receiving an offer from SLU, that just looks bad and had to have him saying what the f. I would be curious to hear what Goodwin thinks of SLU currently. Maybe it doesn't matter when all is said and done (getting Tatum likely eliminates all of this), but I still struggle to understand our recruiting strategy. Part of recruiting is projecting where these kids will be in 2-3 years and not constantly looking for scraps late in the game.

Jayson Tatum makes or breaks our program since without him we are likely looking for a new coach in 10 months. It is surprising how heavily the staff is dependent upon that happening.

[brianstl]

The worst part about the Goodwin thing, is he was a kid that wanted to play at SLU, badly. That was his goal. You need kids like that who have talent in your program. It helps to get everyone else to buy in. They help the staff set the tone. Grawer and Floyd Irons were just talking about this a few weeks ago on Frank's show.

[brianstl]

Who said offering Goodwin makes or breaks our program? You have a different opinion of Goodwin then me and most others who have watched him play, but that is fine.

I guess I just disagree in general with your premise. Do you see Wyatt Yess as being beyond a solid starter at the next level or would you have preferred us not offering him early? If you have a local kid who is capable of being a solid starter at the next level and high-major programs are offering, wouldn't you think that maybe it would be a good idea to offer these kids. Solid starters is what we will always be signing (I am assuming that would fit the 3 star description). At some point it looks bad to have these local kids collecting high-major offers with nothing from SLU even if it is just perception and we are recruiting these kids and have just not offered. What exactly are we waiting for? At some point that has to bruise relationships. Tyler Cook had offers from programs who have won National Championships recently prior to receiving an offer from SLU, that just looks bad and had to have him saying what the f. I would be curious to hear what Goodwin thinks of SLU currently. Maybe it doesn't matter when all is said and done (getting Tatum likely eliminates all of this), but I still struggle to understand our recruiting strategy. Part of recruiting is projecting where these kids will be in 2-3 years and not constantly looking for scraps late in the game.

Jayson Tatum makes or breaks our program since without him we are likely looking for a new coach in 10 months. It is surprising how heavily the staff is dependent upon that happening.

The thing that bothers me about the whole Cook thing was that he was around the program alot early on. There were multiple reports and tweets about him attending games and playing pick up on campus. Seemed like a kid who was definitely interseted in SLU. Then, we let a bunch of other programs offer before SLU.

[Dwayne's_World]

Does anyone think that he might not want to come to SLU anymore after the staff botched his recruitment?

[3star_recruit]

Does anyone think that he might not want to come to SLU anymore after the staff botched his recruitment?

Christian Williams has expressed interested in Iowa for over 2 years now. They only offered him a scholarship at the end of his senior year. Did they "botch" the recruitment because they didn't offer him 2 years ago? Of course not. Because that's really where Christian wanted to go. We didn't offer Jayson Tatum first. Yet there is a very real possibility that the number one player in the country is coming here. Why is that?

If we've reached the point where 3 star recruits are rejecting their dream schools because they "only" got a scholarship offer at age 16 instead of age 15, then I give up. You guys win. But I don't see any evidence that this is actually a widespread problem.

[kshoe]

Christian Williams has expressed interested in Iowa for over 2 years now. They only offered him a scholarship at the end of his senior year. Did they "botch" the recruitment because they didn't offer him 2 years ago? Of course not. Because that's really where Christian wanted to go. We didn't offer Jayson Tatum first. Yet there is a very real possibility that the number one player in the country is coming here. Why is that?

If we've reached the point where 3 star recruits are rejecting their dream schools because they "only" got a scholarship offer at age 16 instead of age 15, then I give up. You guys win. But I don't see any evidence that this is actually a widespread problem.

There aren't too many players that are going to view SLU as their dream school when Big 10 / SEC / Big 12 schools start to get involved. It just doesn't work that way.

We need to take a few risks from time to time as playing it safe and only offering players that are guaranteed to be stars is going to lead to us in head to head battles with those schools and they've already got the advantage of offering first. Honestly, I don't have the confidence in this staff to out-recruit those caliber programs when they've already got a head start on us.

[TheChosenOne]

There aren't too many players that are going to view SLU as their dream school when Big 10 / SEC / Big 12 schools start to get involved. It just doesn't work that way.

We need to take a few risks from time to time as playing it safe and only offering players that are guaranteed to be stars is going to lead to us in head to head battles with those schools and they've already got the advantage of offering first. Honestly, I don't have the confidence in this staff to out-recruit those caliber programs when they've already got a head start on us.

Completely agree. Our recruiting leaves a lot to be desired and now the talent is sitting in our own backyard, have to capitalize on that. With regards to Tatum, I think it is easy to say it didn't hurt that we weren't his 1st offer, but he also has incredible connections to SLU, connections that we may never have to our advantage again. So to use that as some sort of blueprint or example is ignorant. Tatum would have strongly considered SLU regardless of our recruiting efforts/coaches/talent on our roster (I mean we could not have been much worse last season), but these other kids don't have those connections and are having high-major programs throw offers their way before us and that is disappointing. Fortunately for SLU the kid with the connections is also the #1 recruit in the country.

We really need to sign Tatum.

[3star_recruit]

There aren't too many players that are going to view SLU as their dream school when Big 10 / SEC / Big 12 schools start to get involved. It just doesn't work that way.

We need to take a few risks from time to time as playing it safe and only offering players that are guaranteed to be stars is going to lead to us in head to head battles with those schools and they've already got the advantage of offering first. Honestly, I don't have the confidence in this staff to out-recruit those caliber programs when they've already got a head start on us.

I agree that we ought to take risks. We just don't agree on what risks are worth taking. I'd rather roll the dice on a skinny 6'4 sophomore with hops and a jump shot than a 6'3 sophomore who just overpowers his peers. The latter will have a tougher road to hoe than the former. If shooting really was an easy skill to develop there wouldnt be so many mediocre shooters in D1 basketball.

[crymdg2]

I agree, Bateman needs an offer, too.

[slufanskip]

There aren't too many players that are going to view SLU as their dream school when Big 10 / SEC / Big 12 schools start to get involved. It just doesn't work that way.

We need to take a few risks from time to time as playing it safe and only offering players that are guaranteed to be stars is going to lead to us in head to head battles with those schools and they've already got the advantage of offering first. Honestly, I don't have the confidence in this staff to out-recruit those caliber programs when they've already got a head start on us.

But then when we take the risk and it doesn't work out ... is everyone ok with that? Hell no. not you particularly but half the board including many who said we should have offered would be complaining that we can't recruit because the kid isn't good.

I've never seen him play so I don't know if I'd take the risk. Jordair was a guard who was thicker and had no perimeter game that ended up alright. However I'm pretty happy with the players JC and his staff brought in last year which was their first recruiting class they really had time to recruit, so at this point I'll defer to them.

[3star_recruit]

But then when we take the risk and it doesn't work out ... is everyone ok with that? Hell no. not you particularly but half the board including many who said we should have offered would be complaining that we can't recruit because the kid isn't good.

I've never seen him play so I don't know if I'd take the risk. Jordair was a guard who was thicker and had no perimeter game that ended up alright. However I'm pretty happy with the players JC and his staff brought in last year which was their first recruiting class they really had time to recruit, so at this point I'll defer to them.

You don't have to offer players the caliber of Jordair Jett or Darren Brooks or Roosevelt Jones as sophomores. Those kids are readily available, some as late as their senior seasons. Schools don't miss out on 6'2/6'3 power players because they don't offer early. They miss out because they don't offer at all. They miss out because they become so enamored of the early developers, that they overlook players who aren't as far along.

There is a reason so many players seemingly come out of nowhere in their junior seasons. The light bulb turns on. Growth spurts happen. Most high schoolers are still growing into their bodies as sophomores.

[Old guy]

I think that a player's decision reflects where he wants to play rather than who offered first. The key is then to increase our desirability in the eyes of our prospective recruits. Having Cheney as an assistant coach is a plus. If we do get JT to choose SLU, this will be a major plus. I think we are doing well in concentrating our efforts at this time in recruiting JT to come to SLU rather than in making offers to sophomore players.

[kmbilliken]

Are we recruiting Goodwin? If we are recruiting him, we should be able to stay in the hunt. If we are ignoring him, then I could see how he would loose interest.

[slufanskip]

You don't have to offer players the caliber of Jordair Jett or Darren Brooks or Roosevelt Jones as sophomores. Those kids are readily available, some as late as their senior seasons. Schools don't miss out on 6'2/6'3 power players because they don't offer early. They miss out because they don't offer at all. They miss out because they become so enamored of the early developers, that they overlook players who aren't as far along.

There is a reason so many players seemingly come out of nowhere in their junior seasons. The light bulb turns on. Growth spurts happen. Most high schoolers are still growing into their bodies as sophomores.

I'm agreeing with you. Unless you are absolutely sure I'd watch longer before offering

[TheChosenOne]

Are we recruiting Goodwin? If we are recruiting him, we should be able to stay in the hunt. If we are ignoring him, then I could see how he would loose interest.

While I do agree to an extent, you do have to be careful with that especially when it comes to local recruits. If we are consistently offering the local studs after high-major programs it starts to look bad and leave kids kind of questioning the home school. I can't imagine anyone can support SLU offering Tyler Cook after schools like Kansas and Florida. Again, it may not matter at all when it comes to a kid's final decision, but it can't look good for the local mid-major. Now we are seeing it happen with kids like Tilmon, Goodwin, Gordon, Ramey, and Watson. We were the 1st to offer Yess and I think a lot of us were happy to see us be the first in on him (although I have never seen him play).

I personally am not satisfied at all with our recruiting, but Tatum essentially cures all. We are all in on Tatum which is obvious. I am surprised there is not more discussion how bad things could get if he chooses Duke. Jobs may depend on Tatum staying home.

[Quality Is Job 1]

With six players in the 2014 class and three in the '15 class, SLU doesn't have a wealth of rosters spots to offer all these area studs until the 2018 class — unless the message the program wants to send to the local hoops community is, "We'll willingly jettison players already on the roster to make room for high school recruits that might or might not come later."

[slufan13]

Not offering because we might only have 2 scholarships 2 years from now seems like one of the dumber things I've ever heard

[3star_recruit]

While I do agree to an extent, you do have to be careful with that especially when it comes to local recruits. If we are consistently offering the local studs after high-major programs it starts to look bad and leave kids kind of questioning the home school. I can't imagine anyone can support SLU offering Tyler Cook after schools like Kansas and Florida. Again, it may not matter at all when it comes to a kid's final decision, but it can't look good for the local mid-major. Now we are seeing it happen with kids like Tilmon, Goodwin, Gordon, Ramey, and Watson. We were the 1st to offer Yess and I think a lot of us were happy to see us be the first in on him (although I have never seen him play).

I personally am not satisfied at all with our recruiting, but Tatum essentially cures all. We are all in on Tatum which is obvious. I am surprised there is not more discussion how bad things could get if he chooses Duke. Jobs may depend on Tatum staying home.

Nothing wrong with having a different opinion. Echo chambers are boring. I've enjoyed the discussion.

You adhere to conventional wisdom about recruiting: We can't afford to be patient in our evaluations, you have to offer local players as underclassmen, etc. I look at recent history and see a different story. I see Alec Burks playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. I see Gordon Hayward playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. I see Stephen Curry playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. None of these kids were even on mid-major radars as underclassmen, never mind high majors. Why would they be? They were all skinny kids under 6 feet.

We're not going to out-recruit anybody. We are who we are. Our best chance at landing a transformative player, outside of Tatum, is to find a 16 year old in the middle of a growth spurt. Find a late bloomer that high majors aren't even looking at and track him. It's fun to debate which sophomore will be the best college player but sophomore year presents a grossly incomplete picture. Kids grow at different rates . Those extra inches can transform a kid's ceiling overnight. The opportunistic recruiter is patient and keeps his eyes peeled.

[TheChosenOne]

Nothing wrong with having a different opinion. Echo chambers are boring. I've enjoyed the discussion.

You adhere to conventional wisdom about recruiting: We can't afford to be patient in their evaluations, you have to offer local players as underclassmen, etc. I look at recent history and see a different story. I see Alec Burks playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. I see Gordon Hayward playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. I see Stephen Curry playing at an all-conference level the moment he steps on campus. None of these kids were even on mid-major radars as underclassmen, never mind high majors. Why would they be? They were all skinny kids under 6 feet.

We're not going to out-recruit anybody. We are who we are. Our best chance at landing a transformative player, outside of Tatum, is to find a 16 year old in the middle of a growth spurt. Find a late bloomer that high majors aren't even looking at and track him. It's fun to debate which sophomore will be the best college player but sophomore year presents a grossly incomplete picture. Kids grow at different rates . Those extra inches can transform a kid's ceiling overnight. The opportunistic recruiter is patient and keeps his eyes peeled.

I don't disagree with any of this (all very obvious comments), but there is a middle ground (you completely misrepresent my opinion anyways, but maybe that is how it has come across in my few posts in this thread). Maybe that is just how discussions on message boards evolve. I never said we have to rush our evaluations (I am actually completely fine with waiting to offer those 2018 kids, but Goodwin and Tilmon are perplexing to me) or that kids are finished products at the age of 16 (obviously kids mature and develop at different rates). Using three players to support your stance doesn't make you right or have an elevated view. I am just saying that when it comes to local recruits (who we should put an emphasis on since we aren't likely to beat out major programs for national non-regional recruits who likely know very little about Saint Louis U), you have to be careful. You can upset kids and hurt the relationship when high-major programs are offering them before the local school. How do you think Cook felt receiving offers from Kansas and Florida with nothing from SLU (how long did we need to evaluate him especially when his high school is 15 minutes away from campus?) or Goowin feels now? Local coaches want/expect to see SLU recruiting their kids first and the hardest. I saw it when I worked for the team and the games Floyd Irons and others would play with the coaches looking hard for any potential disrespect.

It is nice to see that there are a group of posters on this board who get out to the high school games, it produces some pretty solid discussion on the local kids and the level of their ability.

[slu72 fan]

Does every one of those mentioned project to qualifying academically for SLU? I'm pretty sure one of the names mentioned frequently does not.

[kshoe]

Does every one of those mentioned project to qualifying academically for SLU? I'm pretty sure one of the names mentioned frequently does not.

if someone can qualify for any school in the NCAA he can qualify for slu. Longest running myth around is that we have different academic requirements than other schools.

[SLU_Nick]

if someone can qualify for any school in the NCAA he can qualify for slu. Longest running myth around is that we have different academic requirements than other schools.

But the fact that we do not have a PE major is not a myth. People who cannot read can pass classes at many non-SLU schools. But we don't have that option.

We do need these players available 2nd semester.

[kshoe]

But the fact that we do not have a PE major is not a myth. People who cannot read can pass classes at many non-SLU schools. But we don't have that option.

We do need these players available 2nd semester.

PE majors matter for juco kids, not high schools kids. If a kid was a 1 and done (like tillmon may be) keeping him eligible for the second semester just isn't that hard.

[crymdg2]

Check out @scottybscout's Tweet:

And that's with him playing up a division.