Chris Carrawell

[cgeldmacher]

Thought this topic deserved a new thread. In the lore of Billiken basketball, there will forever be the decision by Jahidi White as he sat at a table at Cardinal Ritter with two hats in front of him. One was a SLU hat and the other a Georgetown hat. My understanding is that a half hour after the press conference was supposed to start, White was still staring at the two hats with everyone watching. Eventually, he reached down and grabbed the Georgetown hat. Rumor was that his mom looked less than pleased in the background.

I have said for years, based upon the stories I have heard, that this one decision caused SLU a final four or possibly a national championship team. Now, I have proof to back me up. It seems that on Frank Cusamano's radio show, Chris Carrawell said that had Jahidi White chosen SLU, that he and Loren Woods would have followed Jahidi to SLU. They all played together at Cardinal Ritter High School. My recollection was that Carrrawell was the captain of a national championship team at Duke. Woods (7"1') started at Wake Forest, but transferred and finished his college career at Arizona.

Jahidi's senior season (97-98) was the same year that we had Larry Hughes. Imagine a team with Loren Woods at C, Jahidi White at PF, Chris Carrawell at SF, Larry Hughes at SG, and any point guard we could find. The 97-98 SLU team had Jamal Walker at PG. He would have done just fine.

Larry Hughes, with Baniak, Luechtefeld, Cobbin, Walker, Heinrich, and Frazier playing with him, got to the tournament and had a decent showing against the eventual national champions (Kentucky). The fantasy line-up above would have to have been at least a final four team. All four of the guys mentioned above were drafted by NBA teams.

I'm not sure if I feel good or bad about having this scenario proven true.

[Old guy]

It is water under the bridge, look ahead, not behind. We all get older and less capable. Situations like the one you describe will happen again someday, and SLU will continue doing its thing and moving forward for better or for worse.

[slu72]

Taj Mahal 79 could have been pg on that team and we'd have won it all. I guess if we landed White, Carawell, and Woods it would have been a true hat trick.

[kshoe]

Thought this topic deserved a new thread. In the lore of Billiken basketball, there will forever be the decision by Jahidi White as he sat at a table at Cardinal Ritter with two hats in front of him. One was a SLU hat and the other a Georgetown hat. My understanding is that a half hour after the press conference was supposed to start, White was still staring at the two hats with everyone watching. Eventually, he reached down and grabbed the Georgetown hat. Rumor was that his mom looked less than pleased in the background.

I have said for years, based upon the stories I have heard, that this one decision caused SLU a final four or possibly a national championship team. Now, I have proof to back me up. It seems that on Frank Cusamano's radio show, Chris Carrawell said that had Jahidi White chosen SLU, that he and Loren Woods would have followed Jahidi to SLU. They all played together at Cardinal Ritter High School. My recollection was that Carrrawell was the captain of a national championship team at Duke. Woods (7"1') started at Wake Forest, but transferred and finished his college career at Arizona.

Jahidi's senior season (97-98) was the same year that we had Larry Hughes. Imagine a team with Loren Woods at C, Jahidi White at PF, Chris Carrawell at SF, Larry Hughes at SG, and any point guard we could find. The 97-98 SLU team had Jamal Walker at PG. He would have done just fine.

Larry Hughes, with Baniak, Luechtefeld, Cobbin, Walker, Heinrich, and Frazier playing with him, got to the tournament and had a decent showing against the eventual national champions (Kentucky). The fantasy line-up above would have to have been at least a final four team. All four of the guys mentioned above were drafted by NBA teams.

I'm not sure if I feel good or bad about having this scenario proven true.

Great post, except for the part in bold. We were absolutely blown out by Kentucky in the 2nd round.

Let's take your post even further. With national championship (or at minimum Final 4) in hand we continue going to dances regularly after 1998, Spoon doesn't retire suddenly and we are a no-brainer to the Big East when it swallowed up the good part of CUSA in 2004.

[ACE]

Great post, except for the part in bold. We were absolutely blown out by Kentucky in the 2nd round.

Let's take your post even further. With national championship (or at minimum Final 4) in hand we continue going to dances regularly after 1998, Spoon doesn't retire suddenly and we are a no-brainer to the Big East when it swallowed up the good part of CUSA in 2004.

One of my motivations in my earlier "Recruiting Hindsight" thread was seeing what happened the last time we were coming off a successful run - Spoonball. It felt like Spoon was never quite able to build on recruiting success, following the on-court success of H/Clag/Highmark. Yes, there was another blip with Larry Legend, but not enough solid recruiting to sustain success into the future. Now after what RM helped build recently, I really hope history doesn't repeat itself and that this season is just a bump in the road and not a step back for the program. I think the foundation is in place to rather quickly get back to a high level, but several pieces still need to fall into place.

It was a long time ago now and I was quite young, but obviously getting a White or Carrawell would have been huge in terms of sustaining the program's success. But even missing on those high profile targets, it just seemed Spoon should have been able to better quality recruits more frequently. We were playing in a high profile conference in front of big crowds. He needed to get another strong group to build on. The closest he came was as he was near the end of his run - with Love, Jeffers and Perry, but two of those were JUCOs and were not in the program long and there just weren't enough enough good underclassmen to develop along with Marque.

[doowop]

One of my motivations in my earlier "Recruiting Hindsight" thread was seeing what happened the last time we were coming off a successful run - Spoonball. It felt like Spoon was never quite able to build on recruiting success, following the on-court success of H/Clag/Highmark. Yes, there was another blip with Larry Legend, but not enough solid recruiting to sustain success into the future. Now after what RM helped build recently, I really hope history doesn't repeat itself and that this season is just a bump in the road and not a step back for the program. I think the foundation is in place to rather quickly get back to a high level, but several pieces still need to fall into place.

It was a long time ago now and I was quite young, but obviously getting a White or Carrawell would have been huge in terms of sustaining the program's success. But even missing on those high profile targets, it just seemed Spoon should have been able to better quality recruits more frequently. We were playing in a high profile conference in front of big crowds. He needed to get another strong group to build on. The closest he came was as he was near the end of his run - with Love, Jeffers and Perry, but two of those were JUCOs and were not in the program long and there just weren't enough enough good underclassmen to develop along with Marque.

Spoon said he got tired of recruiting plus SLU was so picky about the recruiting budget. They made him accountable for every penny and I mean 1 cent. This was reported after he left SLU.

[almaman]

Thought this topic deserved a new thread. In the lore of Billiken basketball, there will forever be the decision by Jahidi White as he sat at a table at Cardinal Ritter with two hats in front of him. One was a SLU hat and the other a Georgetown hat. My understanding is that a half hour after the press conference was supposed to start, White was still staring at the two hats with everyone watching. Eventually, he reached down and grabbed the Georgetown hat. Rumor was that his mom looked less than pleased in the background.

I have said for years, based upon the stories I have heard, that this one decision caused SLU a final four or possibly a national championship team. Now, I have proof to back me up. It seems that on Frank Cusamano's radio show, Chris Carrawell said that had Jahidi White chosen SLU, that he and Loren Woods would have followed Jahidi to SLU. They all played together at Cardinal Ritter High School. My recollection was that Carrrawell was the captain of a national championship team at Duke. Woods (7"1') started at Wake Forest, but transferred and finished his college career at Arizona.

Jahidi's senior season (97-98) was the same year that we had Larry Hughes. Imagine a team with Loren Woods at C, Jahidi White at PF, Chris Carrawell at SF, Larry Hughes at SG, and any point guard we could find. The 97-98 SLU team had Jamal Walker at PG. He would have done just fine.

Larry Hughes, with Baniak, Luechtefeld, Cobbin, Walker, Heinrich, and Frazier playing with him, got to the tournament and had a decent showing against the eventual national champions (Kentucky). The fantasy line-up above would have to have been at least a final four team. All four of the guys mentioned above were drafted by NBA teams.

I'm not sure if I feel good or bad about having this scenario proven true.

boy that would of been awesome. did CC about how they all felt about their decision?

[hsmith19]

It's fun to think about, but when you start thinking through the history of "what ifs," almost every crappy team has a moment that could've set off a hypothetical chain of events leading to greatness or at least a radically different future.

The St. Louis Browns were the first team to scout Yogi Berra. His dad talked him into signing with the Yankees because they offered a few hundred dollars extra on the signing bonus. A few years later they were in the same situation with being out in front of the pack on Mickey Mantle. The Browns' brass wouldn't allow Mantle to be signed until he had worked out in front of team personnel in St. Louis. They brought Mantle in, but it rained the day he was in town, and the ownership wouldn't pay to put Mickey and his dad up in a hotel so he could work out the next day. Before they could get him to come back to town, he had signed with the Yankees too. In both cases, Fred Hofmann and other scouts were desperate to get ownership to sign these guys when they had the chance. It wasn't a case of the Browns being lost in the shuffle; they were out ahead of the pack on both and had the first chance to sign them. The one guy in this era the Browns did succeed in locking up was Roy Sievers, who was highly coveted by both the Yankees and the Cardinals, and who signed with the Browns because he thought their shallower farm system would provide him the quickest path to the big leagues.

Arguably the biggest pivotal moment in St. Louis baseball history was when Fred Saigh was indicted for tax fraud in the spring of 1952. The Cardinals' ownership had already been in flux, with Bob Hannegan getting sick, forced to sell to Saigh, and then dying, all while rumors about Saigh's tax dodge hung over everything. The nucleus of the 1940s teams was aging, and the farm system Rickey had implemented had started to dry up. Frank Lane ended up trading Slaughter and Schoendienst (and wanting to trade Musial for Robin Roberts) very shortly after this whole drama played out. The Browns had been in the toilet financially for decades. One of those two teams was going, and everybody knew it. It was that environment that led Bill Veeck to buy the Browns with the express purpose of driving the Cardinals out of town, which at the time was considered a lot more than just a lark. Getting either Berra or Mantle to go with Sievers, who won the Rookie of the Year Award right before running into injury trouble, would have made the Browns' franchise appear much more viable. Who knows if Saigh would've been able to persuade Gussie Busch to white-knight the Cardinals if the Browns had succeeded in stockpiling the young talent they had been scouting but just refusing to sign? The Browns also had Ned Garver, who was considered one of the best young pitchers in baseball at the time, and who Veeck insisted on hanging on to until after the Brewery bought the Cardinals and he knew the prospect of keeping the Browns in St. Louis was a lost cause. We could very easily be looking at the Milwaukee Cardinals, the St. Louis Browns, and the Baltimore Pilots if we apply a "what if Spoon had signed those guys" lens to baseball history.

[Taj79]

Shoulda, coulda, wouldas make for wonderful, albeit trivial and inconsequential, story telling. The St. Louis landscape is dotted with some local phenom that, if he had stayed home, the fortunes of Saint Louis basketball would be all different. You cannot conclude that would have been the case ....

Names I have lived through included Johnnie Parker, Steve Stipanovich and Mark Dressler, Ted Mimlitz, LaPhonso Ellis, Cuonzo Martin, Kevin Stallings, Monroe Douglass, Melvin Robinson, Larry Hughes, Darius Miles, Ryan Robertson, Ben McLemore, David Lee, Brad Beal, Craig Upchurch and probaly a few others plus the three mentioned above in White, Carrawell and Woods. Douglass seems a prime of example of a great get but without also getting Roland Gray and later Anthony Bonner, does Douglass matter? We really jelled there when Jim Roder came home from Kansas State and ran the point. Bonner was a nobody when we signed him. Some studs were complete whiffs, whether here or elsewhere. Jared Swopeshire. Rueben Cotto. Brett Thompson. Matt Baniak. Tyler Griffey. Scott Suggs.

Granted, you have to get the talent to win and that dream lineup would have been so cool (especially with me playing the point) but every instance of successful Billiken basketball has involved a team of talent that played team ball. Without a "team" the Miracle in Memphis doesn't happen. The greatest moments in modern Billiken history involve teams of this nature---- from Douglass/Gray/Bonner under Grawer to Claggs/Hmark/Waldman under Spoon, to the Legend's one year where he made everyone better, to the Miracle and then closing with the Majerus run. And after each instance the cycle downturned because, well, that's our pattern, our M.O. Back tro my "sustainability" desire.

As for the speculation Spoon would have hung around, I say no. The factor not discussed in Spoon's decision is the reason for the penny pinching, namely Biondi. Same reason some 15 or so years later (I believe) Majerus walks out the door. Biondi wanted a "top 50" program but I think he meant one that didn't top 50 cents in terms of spending. Have to spend money to make money.

I also agree with kshoe's extrapolation out into the Big East. It would have happened. But I didn't play point guard so it's all on me ....

Talk about breaks, the Pottsville (Pa.) Maroons won the NFL Championship in 1925, beating the Chicago Cardinals owned by the Bidwill family in Chicago by the score of 21 to 7. In order to get to the title game, they had to beat division foe the Frankford Yellow Jackets (today's Philadelphia Eagles). They did by the score of 49 to 0. In an effort to raise capital, and at the urge of promoters, they agreed to play Notre Dame and their fabled "Four Horsemen" in an exhibition game -- pro champs against college champs. They decided to play the game in Philly, at Shibe Park (later Connie Mack Stadium) due to the larger seating capacity and ability to charge everyone who walked through the gates. It was a sell-out and the Maroons won 9 to 7. Some credit the game and the win as putting the pro game on the same level as the then-more popular college game. The Yellow Jackets, still pissed at losing to the "coal crackers" in their division, claimed the game violated their "territorial rights" and the commish then ruled in the Yellow Jackets favor. Pottsville was stripped of its title and the league declared the Cardinals as the champs. I believe it is the only championship the Bidwill family has ever "won."

Many in the region speculate today that if the title had held and the prestige had continued, Pottsville would be used in the same breath as Green Bay, Wisconsin is today: http://www.pottsvillemaroons1925.com/ Shoulda, coulda, woulda ......

[Clock_Tower]

Shoulda, coulda, wouldas make for wonderful, albeit trivial and inconsequential, story telling. The St. Louis landscape is dotted with some local phenom that, if he had stayed home, the fortunes of Saint Louis basketball would be all different. You cannot conclude that would have been the case ....

Names I have lived through included Johnnie Parker, Steve Stipanovich and Mark Dressler, Ted Mimlitz, LaPhonso Ellis, Cuonzo Martin, Kevin Stallings, Monroe Douglass, Melvin Robinson, Larry Hughes, Darius Miles, Ryan Robertson, Ben McLemore, David Lee, Brad Beal, Craig Upchurch and probaly a few others plus the three mentioned above in White, Carrawell and Woods. Douglass seems a prime of example of a great get but without also getting Roland Gray and later Anthony Bonner, does Douglass matter? We really jelled there when Jim Roder came home from Kansas State and ran the point. Bonner was a nobody when we signed him. Some studs were complete whiffs, whether here or elsewhere. Jared Swopeshire. Rueben Cotto. Brett Thompson. Matt Baniak. Tyler Griffey. Scott Suggs.

Granted, you have to get the talent to win and that dream lineup would have been so cool (especially with me playing the point) but every instance of successful Billiken basketball has involved a team of talent that played team ball. Without a "team" the Miracle in Memphis doesn't happen. The greatest moments in modern Billiken history involve teams of this nature---- from Douglass/Gray/Bonner under Grawer to Claggs/Hmark/Waldman under Spoon, to the Legend's one year where he made everyone better, to the Miracle and then closing with the Majerus run. And after each instance the cycle downturned because, well, that's our pattern, our M.O. Back tro my "sustainability" desire.

As for the speculation Spoon would have hung around, I say no. The factor not discussed in Spoon's decision is the reason for the penny pinching, namely Biondi. Same reason some 15 or so years later (I believe) Majerus walks out the door. Biondi wanted a "top 50" program but I think he meant one that didn't top 50 cents in terms of spending. Have to spend money to make money.

I also agree with kshoe's extrapolation out into the Big East. It would have happened. But I didn't play point guard so it's all on me ....

Talk about breaks, the Pottsville (Pa.) Maroons won the NFL Championship in 1925, beating the Chicago Cardinals owned by the Bidwill family in Chicago by the score of 21 to 7. In order to get to the title game, they had to beat division foe the Frankford Yellow Jackets (today's Philadelphia Eagles). They did by the score of 49 to 0. In an effort to raise capital, and at the urge of promoters, they agreed to play Notre Dame and their fabled "Four Horsemen" in an exhibition game -- pro champs against college champs. They decided to play the game in Philly, at Shibe Park (later Connie Mack Stadium) due to the larger seating capacity and ability to charge everyone who walked through the gates. It was a sell-out and the Maroons won 9 to 7. Some credit the game and the win as putting the pro game on the same level as the then-more popular college game. The Yellow Jackets, still pissed at losing to the "coal crackers" in their division, claimed the game violated their "territorial rights" and the commish then ruled in the Yellow Jackets favor. Pottsville was stripped of its title and the league declared the Cardinals as the champs. I believe it is the only championship the Bidwill family has ever "won."

Many in the region speculate today that if the title had held and the prestige had continued, Pottsville would be used in the same breath as Green Bay, Wisconsin is today: http://www.pottsvillemaroons1925.com/ Shoulda, coulda, woulda ......

Taj.

Honest question. Yes, Fr. Biondi was not the right President for our men's basketball team (and probably the entire sports program) but wasn't he more controlling (I understand that he had to approve of nearly every expenditure) as opposed to cheap. Often times, it seems like he eventually spent the same amount of money but that it was his ego, his terms, his control which pissed off and frustrated so many (from coaches to athletic directors) prior to approving the same expenditure of money!!

[cheeseman]

Taj.

Honest question. Yes, Fr. Biondi was not the right President for our men's basketball team (and probably the entire sports program) but wasn't he more controlling (I understand that he had to approve of nearly every expenditure) as opposed to cheap. Often times, it seems like he eventually spent the same amount of money but that it was his ego, his terms, his control which pissed off and frustrated so many (from coaches to athletic directors) prior to approving the same expenditure of money!!

That culture was truly in place during Biondi's tenure. In times when money is tight everybody understands that approach but when things get better you have to loosen up. I have told this story before but I will share it again - my son was doing research at SLU and they were working with several other schools. The project required the sending of live specimens between each other. Biondi had negotiated a deal with DHL that did not allow for overnight package delivery. The specimens had to be sent overnight or they would not be suitable for use. Biondi refused to let anybody send anything overnight - apparently SLU was getting a kickback of some kind from DHL for packages sent by SLU. No matter how much you tried to explain the problem to him he would not relent. Finally the research people decided to send the live specimens through another shipping company and paid out of their own pocket. This was so silly because all it accomplished was pissing people off and eventually having them leave and taking their grant money with them of which SLU got a % of . They lost more money that way then what they would have made off the kick back on the few items that needed to be shipped overnight. Nobody stays in a situation like that if they have options - hence Spoon left.

[willie]

That culture was truly in place during Biondi's tenure. In times when money is tight everybody understands that approach but when things get better you have to loosen up. I have told this story before but I will share it again - my son was doing research at SLU and they were working with several other schools. The project required the sending of live specimens between each other. Biondi had negotiated a deal with DHL that did not allow for overnight package delivery. The specimens had to be sent overnight or they would not be suitable for use. Biondi refused to let anybody send anything overnight - apparently SLU was getting a kickback of some kind from DHL for packages sent by SLU. No matter how much you tried to explain the problem to him he would not relent. Finally the research people decided to send the live specimens through another shipping company and paid out of their own pocket. This was so silly because all it accomplished was pissing people off and eventually having them leave and taking their grant money with them of which SLU got a % of . They lost more money that way then what they would have made off the kick back on the few items that needed to be shipped overnight. Nobody stays in a situation like that if they have options - hence Spoon left.

I think that was his issue with Charter Flights. He had a rule that everyone with the University was to fly commercial.

[kmbilliken]

There's always the famous ice cream story where they wouldn't reimburse Spoon for the ice cream he ordered for desert on the road. The Majerus era would have ended in disaster had he lived to either be non-tendered or walked away. No way he was going to be here after his contract ended. No decent coach would have wanted to come here then. Hopefully the new president can usher in an era of common sense in dealing with the school's number 1 sports program and PR device.

[Cowboy]

There's always the famous ice cream story where they wouldn't reimburse Spoon for the ice cream he ordered for desert on the road. The Majerus era would have ended in disaster had he lived to either be non-tendered or walked away. No way he was going to be here after his contract ended. No decent coach would have wanted to come here then. Hopefully the new president can usher in an era of common sense in dealing with the school's number 1 sports program and PR device.

-let's hope, Dr P has said the right things to this point, but we've heard that before.....

[slu72 fan]

-let's hope, Dr P has said the right things to this point, but we've heard that before.....

I was at a dinner with him, sponsored by the Athletic Department, last week. Based on his comments, and what I've heard from members of the AD, the atmosphere has changed from the previous regime.

[Clock_Tower]

Appreciate the examples. And yes, money was at stake with all of them - especially the Spoon's ice cream -- but not only was money lost in the long term but a desire for an over-riding set of principles deemed necessary upon all, an unwillingness to be flexible, and unwillingness to delegate to Chairs and Deans, an inflated and unchecked ego, absolute control and a desire to not only prove his point but to demonstrate his power seems more at issue than being cheap. I can understand the desire to keep recruiting budgets under control (going to Australia had to be expensive), taking the team abroad had to be expensive, etc. but going back on his word about chartered flights, etc. was inexcusable. Good riddance Father Beyondme.

[Taj79]

@clock: I cannot do any more than speculate on Biondi or relate third-hand stories. My only discussion with him was in Cincinnati at the CUSA tournament where he used the "top 50 program" line with me. It was Hughes only year. I had seen him many times since, at alumni gatherings on the road, and either he knew me by name or had Meg and the other organizers whispering in his ear before he said hello but we never got to discuss much more after than first, in-depth experience in Cincy.

As the program continued to stagnate, my frustration with him grew albeit from an aloof distance. I also found it funny that he was ALWAYS at the DC games but rarely in Philly. I guess DC was more the place to be -- power, influence, money, old connections. I think the first event I went to there was the debacle "20-point game." We had seats two or three rows behind the Bills bench as seems customary at all arenas when the visiting team's alumni show up. Where was the Syracuse orange in Chapel Hill Monday night? Behind Boeheim and the team. Now maybe this is for the high rollers and family folks but we did not have a following back then. I called La Salle's ticket office direct and got a seat same way and same location. Sat with Momma Drejaj even. Same thing on my first visit to La Salle with the alumni. Then it got freaky. And I may have wrongly blamed Biondi. But it happened at GeeDubya again. Went to the reception, and was given my seat for the game. When we got to the Smith Center, our seats were behind the basket, above floor level. Yet Biondi and company were behind the team bench per the usual. I got pissed and moved down (there were empty seats!). So too did SLU Nick as I recall. Later I heard something about "Presidents Club" seats or something. Next time to La Salle and we were three rows from the top at Gola. Back to GeeDubya and now seven rows from the top of the Smith Center. I understand booster differentials but how about a little explanation. Biondi just seemed to place himself above all others. I always expected him to say "kiss my ring" or something equally stupid. Dr. P seems better than that (for now) but any change would have been a breath of fres air -- hell even larry72 would have been welcomed!

[Deutschkind]

-let's hope, Dr P has said the right things to this point, but we've heard that before.....

Isn't the real question whether or not Dr. P has the Sword of Loyola?

[kmbilliken]

Isn't the real question whether or not Dr. P has the Sword of Loyola?

Is that what they call Porter up there?