United States of College Basketball

[slufan13]

IF SLU is willing to pay their next coach close to $1M, they will be able to land a pretty solid guy but I agree with cgeldmacher that people will be throwing at names that we have zero shot at.

SLU has nice facilities and they're in a solid, competitive conference, but if I'm coach of say, North Florida, and I have my sights set on a power conference job, would I be better off dominating my own conference than trying to scrape out top 5 finishes in the A10? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question.

[JMM28]

SLU has nice facilities and they're in a solid, competitive conference, but if I'm coach of say, North Florida, and I have my sights set on a power conference job, would I be better off dominating my own conference than trying to scrape out top 5 finishes in the A10? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question.

I see the difference as this. Success at North Florida or any bottom 10 conference school will get a coach looks from the bottoms of the BCS conferences or top level jobs in the MWC/A10/MVC/Big East schools. A stopover at one of those top level-mid conference jobs (I'm counting SLU in that) with success would position a coach to jump to a top level BCS job.

I don't see a wrong answer either because it would be personal preference. Some coaches would say they'd rather take a shot at the BCS right away. Others see the benefit of having success in a major market and having a choice between a million a year for awhile, like Shaka/Marshall, and having a choice at the top jobs when they open up.

[billiken class of 15]

I guarantee that if Crews goes, this board will start lobbing out names that we have no shot at. The hot names every year end up going to BCS conferences. Nobody moves from the Missouri Valley to the A-10. The hot names get hired for more money that the $850K we pay Crews.

I'm not saying that this means we have to hold onto Coach Crews if we have another disastrous year, but I've seen too many times when people on this board think that SLU is a top destination for big names. Right now it is not. It will continue that way until we start to have Xavier or Gonzaga type success for about five to six years.

+1 Well said.

[slu72]

I agree that posters would be tossing around a lot of names where we'd have no shot. That said, there are a host of good coaches out there in lower rated conferences than the A10 that would find SLU an attractive move. You have basically 4 tiers of conferences in the D1. The Power 6, High Mid Majors, Mid Majors, and then lower mids. A10 is a high mid. MVC is still a Mid. SOCON would be a lower mid as examples. I would think that we could get a good AC from a BCS'er (I think we've tried but never closed a deal on one of these). Possibly convince a High Mid guy to make a move. Hire away a good Mid Major coach (Romar and Spoon). Definitely could hire a lower tier coach. We could get a fired coach from the Power 6. Take Ben Howland as an example. Had he gone another year w/o an offer, I think he would have given SLU strong consideration. But, you're right, we're not enticing a Big 6 guy away unless he's thinking he's getting fired.

[ACE]

I agree that posters would be tossing around a lot of names where we'd have no shot. That said, there are a host of good coaches out there in lower rated conferences than the A10 that would find SLU an attractive move. You have basically 4 tiers of conferences in the D1. The Power 6, High Mid Majors, Mid Majors, and then lower mids. A10 is a high mid. MVC is still a Mid. SOCON would be a lower mid as examples. I would think that we could get a good AC from a BCS'er (I think we've tried but never closed a deal on one of these). Possibly convince a High Mid guy to make a move. Hire away a good Mid Major coach (Romar and Spoon). Definitely could hire a lower tier coach. We could get a fired coach from the Power 6. Take Ben Howland as an example. Had he gone another year w/o an offer, I think he would have given SLU strong consideration. But, you're right, we're not enticing a Big 6 guy away unless he's thinking he's getting fired.

We have gotten one before... his name was Sodie. A top assistant at Wisconsin and even an interim head coach in the Big 10 before becoming a SLU assistant for just one year.

[cgeldmacher]

I agree that posters would be tossing around a lot of names where we'd have no shot. That said, there are a host of good coaches out there in lower rated conferences than the A10 that would find SLU an attractive move. You have basically 4 tiers of conferences in the D1. The Power 6, High Mid Majors, Mid Majors, and then lower mids. A10 is a high mid. MVC is still a Mid. SOCON would be a lower mid as examples. I would think that we could get a good AC from a BCS'er (I think we've tried but never closed a deal on one of these). Possibly convince a High Mid guy to make a move. Hire away a good Mid Major coach (Romar and Spoon). Definitely could hire a lower tier coach. We could get a fired coach from the Power 6. Take Ben Howland as an example. Had he gone another year w/o an offer, I think he would have given SLU strong consideration. But, you're right, we're not enticing a Big 6 guy away unless he's thinking he's getting fired.

I agree with almost everything you said. I like the hierarchy you came up with. I think it is accurate.

I disagree that we could get a mid major coach to switch over to us in our high mid major conference. At least not the ones we would want. The top guys in the mid major conferences are looking to jump to the BCS schools. Even the lower mid guys can make that jump. Remember the Florida Gulf Coast coach from a few years ago, Andy Enfield. He jumped straight to USC.

If we have an opening, lots of guys on the board are going to start suggesting that we should get Marshall or someone like him. That's just not reasonable. Doesn't matter that we can pay around a million or that we have great facilities. If he moves, he's going big like Shaka or Brad Stevens. The other coaches in conferences like the Missouri Valley that we would want, the ones having recent success, will say to themselves that they would rather stay with the rising program they are building with their half million dollar salary and hold out for a BCS job rather than come to a high mid major school that needs to rebuild for a few hundred thousand dollars more.

[ARon]

No reason we couldn't attract the next Archie Miller.

Shaka have a little brother?

[brianstl]

I agree with almost everything you said. I like the hierarchy you came up with. I think it is accurate.

I disagree that we could get a mid major coach to switch over to us in our high mid major conference. At least not the ones we would want. The top guys in the mid major conferences are looking to jump to the BCS schools. Even the lower mid guys can make that jump. Remember the Florida Gulf Coast coach from a few years ago, Andy Enfield. He jumped straight to USC.

If we have an opening, lots of guys on the board are going to start suggesting that we should get Marshall or someone like him. That's just not reasonable. Doesn't matter that we can pay around a million or that we have great facilities. If he moves, he's going big like Shaka or Brad Stevens. The other coaches in conferences like the Missouri Valley that we would want, the ones having recent success, will say to themselves that they would rather stay with the rising program they are building with their half million dollar salary and hold out for a BCS job rather than come to a high mid major school that needs to rebuild for a few hundred thousand dollars more.

Enfield's agent was lobbying for him to get the SLU job at one point during the interim season for Jim Crews.

[ARon]

If we have an opening, lots of guys on the board are going to start suggesting that we should get Marshall or someone like him. That's just not reasonable.

I suggested Marshall 2 years ago when we would have had a chance, albeit slim. Now you are right, he is out of our reach.

[Taj79]

What has happened to Saint Louis University coaches once they were done here?

Eddie Hickey: took Marquette job after a ten-year run here and a .704 winning percentage; gone and out of coaching six years later after a 5 and 21 season at Marquette.

John Bennington: took over for Hickey, went 7 years here and posted a .624 winning percentage; took Michigan State job; three years later dead after massive heart attack at age of 47 in the practice court at MSU.

Joe "Buddy" Brehmer: took over for Bennington, posted a .481 mark over 4 years; no discernable listing afterwards.

Bob Polk: took over for Brehmer, five years, .545 winning percentage; took Rice job and was out of coaching forever three years later.

Randy Albrecht: former Billiken player 1963-1966, scored 87 points in three years; won 32 games in three years; coach at Meramac Community College ever since.

Ron Coleman: hired from Vashon High School, one year; 7 and 20 record; never heard from again.

Ron Ekker: 4 years, .343 winning percentage, nearly destroyed program; for some reason was assistant coach on several NBA teams. Nothing special. Claim toi fame: dating and marrying Billiken cheerleader. Alsoserved as athletic director (yikes!).

Rich Grawer; savior of program, 10 years, second in overall program wins with 159; burned out, fired, back to Clayton High School.

Charlie Spoonhour: seven years, .575 percentage; burned out, retired, sat out two yearS before return to UNLV where he retired again halfway through 3rd season. Health issues. Died.

Lorenzo Romar: three years, one Miracle, .537 percentage; bolted back to alma mater Uiversity of Washington. Has seen steady decline since Sweet Sixteen appearance in 2009-2010.

Brad Soderberg: five years, 80 wins, fired for Majerus; two years out of coaching, back to NAIA Lindenwood, now first year as assistant at Virginia.

Rick Majerus; dead.

Jim Crews: dead man walking --- and he will retire more than anythign else on leaving here.

If you go down the assistants list, only Jay Spoonhour, Derek Thomas Randy Bennett, Cameron Dollar and Porter Moser have become head coaches elsewhere. And those are at dregs outposts like Eastern and Western Illinois, Loyola of Chicago, Seattle Univeristy and St. Mary's of California.

Saint Louis University is going to have to take a massive flyer on whomever the next coach will be.

[thetorch]

What has happened to Saint Louis University coaches once they were done here?

Eddie Hickey: took Marquette job after a ten-year run here and a .704 winning percentage; gone and out of coaching six years later after a 5 and 21 season at Marquette.

John Bennington: took over for Hickey, went 7 years here and posted a .624 winning percentage; took Michigan State job; three years later dead after massive heart attack at age of 47 in the practice court at MSU.

Joe "Buddy" Brehmer: took over for Bennington, posted a .481 mark over 4 years; no discernable listing afterwards.

Bob Polk: took over for Brehmer, five years, .545 winning percentage; took Rice job and was out of coaching forever three years later.

Randy Albrecht: former Billiken player 1963-1966, scored 87 points in three years; won 32 games in three years; coach at Meramac Community College ever since.

Ron Coleman: hired from Vashon High School, one year; 7 and 20 record; never heard from again.

Ron Ekker: 4 years, .343 winning percentage, nearly destroyed program; for some reason was assistant coach on several NBA teams. Nothing special. Claim toi fame: dating and marrying Billiken cheerleader. Alsoserved as athletic director (yikes!).

Rich Grawer; savior of program, 10 years, second in overall program wins with 159; burned out, fired, back to Clayton High School.

Charlie Spoonhour: seven years, .575 percentage; burned out, retired, sat out two yearS before return to UNLV where he retired again halfway through 3rd season. Health issues. Died.

Lorenzo Romar: three years, one Miracle, .537 percentage; bolted back to alma mater Uiversity of Washington. Has seen steady decline since Sweet Sixteen appearance in 2009-2010.

Brad Soderberg: five years, 80 wins, fired for Majerus; two years out of coaching, back to NAIA Lindenwood, now first year as assistant at Virginia.

Rick Majerus; dead.

Jim Crews: dead man walking --- and he will retire more than anythign else on leaving here.

If you go down the assistants list, only Jay Spoonhour, Derek Thomas Randy Bennett, Cameron Dollar and Porter Moser have become head coaches elsewhere. And those are at dregs outposts like Eastern and Western Illinois, Loyola of Chicago, Seattle Univeristy and St. Mary's of California.

Saint Louis University is going to have to take a massive flyer on whomever the next coach will be.

The only "successful" head coaching tree SLU has ever had was the Brehmer-Grawer so we need to hire a Grawer son or someone who played for Grawer to advance the tree.

If Albrecht would have been given a fair shake Xavier would be wishing they were SLU instead of the other way around.

I'm in favor of a Majerus part 2 plan for a new head coach.

Hire from a low to mid major but not a young guy. Get a proven winner in his late 40s or 50s and bring him here for over a million. That is doable. Bringing in a young hotshot coach is not.

[Taj79]

What is the "Brehmer-Grawer tree," torch? I am unfamiliar with the connection. Grawer was a successful high school coach at DeSmet with Stipo and Dressler, then did one year on the Mizzou bench with Stormin' Norman Stewart. That is all I know about Grawer's pre-SLU history.

My attendance time at SLU was Albrecht-Coleman-Ekker so I also don't know the "Albrecht fair shake" story. It wasn't until Grawer Year Three that much happened basketball-wise in my time in St. Louis.

And who is "Majerus part 2?" The only guy out there similar appears to be Bobby Knight but I'm open to additions to that short list. About the only "movers and shakers" I see across the whole A10 coaching universe are Hurley and Miller. The rest appear on par with what we have now.

[thetorch]

Brehmer coached and recruited Grawer to Rockhurst. Together they won a National title. Grawer is the only mo player to win a state title and a national title. Brehmer then got the job at SLU. Grawer was coach at SLUH & DeSmet before breaking into the college ranks at Mizzou.

Albrecht was an excellent coach. 700 JUCO victories. The ad in the late 70s was such a mess. Albrecht was young, had to play in the metro conference that was way out of SLU's league. He followed up Polk who couldn't recruit at all. Versace took all his players with him after the boosters pushed to fire him. Albrecht only got less than 2 years to do a total redo of the team. In tip off club meetings he was ridiculed mercilessly. They can him and hire Coleman, who was the exact opposite of Albrecht and was fired even quicker.

Majerus part 2 is exactly that. Majerus was a one in a million but there are some like him. A lower level veteran coach who has been to several NCAAs but doesn't want the pressure of a big time job. Those guys are out there and BCS schools and high major schools don't want them but they are perfect for our situation, just like Majerus was. Obviously Rick Byrd would be the best candidate like this but there are others, similar coaches (who I'm not saying we should hire but are in the mold) are Gary Waters, Fran O'Hanlon, Dan Monson, Scott Sutton, Eddie Payne, Scott Nagy, Steve Hawkins, & Mike Young.

[willie]

Randy may have become a good coach at Meramec but he was not a good coach at SLU . I will never forget an overtime loss to Kansas. We had a 2 point lead with a couple of seconds on the clock. Randy allowed Kansas to roll the ball past half court,pick it up and make a long shot to force overtime. Randy was too young and inexperienced at SLU. I do agree the athletic department was a mess but Randy was not the answer.

[brianstl]

I would consider Davenport at Bellarmine. Really good D2 coach who coaches kids up. Was an assistant for years at Louisville under Crum and Pitino.

[thetorch]

Randy may have become a good coach at Meramec but he was not a good coach at SLU . I will never forget an overtime loss to Kansas. We had a 2 point lead with a couple of seconds on the clock. Randy allowed Kansas to roll the ball past half court,pick it up and make a long shot to force overtime. Randy was too young and inexperienced at SLU. I do agree the athletic department was a mess but Randy was not the answer.

Of course he basically went from what would now be Danny Brown's job to HC. He was overwhelmed.

[Taj79]

Wow torch. I did not know that but then again, I only knew of Grawer beginning with DeSmet. Thanks.

[slu72]

I agree with almost everything you said. I like the hierarchy you came up with. I think it is accurate.

I disagree that we could get a mid major coach to switch over to us in our high mid major conference. At least not the ones we would want. The top guys in the mid major conferences are looking to jump to the BCS schools. Even the lower mid guys can make that jump. Remember the Florida Gulf Coast coach from a few years ago, Andy Enfield. He jumped straight to USC.

If we have an opening, lots of guys on the board are going to start suggesting that we should get Marshall or someone like him. That's just not reasonable. Doesn't matter that we can pay around a million or that we have great facilities. If he moves, he's going big like Shaka or Brad Stevens. The other coaches in conferences like the Missouri Valley that we would want, the ones having recent success, will say to themselves that they would rather stay with the rising program they are building with their half million dollar salary and hold out for a BCS job rather than come to a high mid major school that needs to rebuild for a few hundred thousand dollars more.

I would never suggest we could entice a Marshall or a Few type. What I would suggest as reasonable is to find the next Marshall at a school like Winthrop. Yeah, Enfield made a big leap, and he's not alone, eg Anderson to Mizzery, Buerlein to WVA a few years back. Now Anderson's story is yet to be written, but I'd hire a Buerlein type in a heartbeat.

[slu72]

What has happened to Saint Louis University coaches once they were done here?

Eddie Hickey: took Marquette job after a ten-year run here and a .704 winning percentage; gone and out of coaching six years later after a 5 and 21 season at Marquette.

John Bennington: took over for Hickey, went 7 years here and posted a .624 winning percentage; took Michigan State job; three years later dead after massive heart attack at age of 47 in the practice court at MSU.

Joe "Buddy" Brehmer: took over for Bennington, posted a .481 mark over 4 years; no discernable listing afterwards.

Bob Polk: took over for Brehmer, five years, .545 winning percentage; took Rice job and was out of coaching forever three years later.

Randy Albrecht: former Billiken player 1963-1966, scored 87 points in three years; won 32 games in three years; coach at Meramac Community College ever since.

Ron Coleman: hired from Vashon High School, one year; 7 and 20 record; never heard from again.

Ron Ekker: 4 years, .343 winning percentage, nearly destroyed program; for some reason was assistant coach on several NBA teams. Nothing special. Claim toi fame: dating and marrying Billiken cheerleader. Alsoserved as athletic director (yikes!).

Rich Grawer; savior of program, 10 years, second in overall program wins with 159; burned out, fired, back to Clayton High School.

Charlie Spoonhour: seven years, .575 percentage; burned out, retired, sat out two yearS before return to UNLV where he retired again halfway through 3rd season. Health issues. Died.

Lorenzo Romar: three years, one Miracle, .537 percentage; bolted back to alma mater Uiversity of Washington. Has seen steady decline since Sweet Sixteen appearance in 2009-2010.

Brad Soderberg: five years, 80 wins, fired for Majerus; two years out of coaching, back to NAIA Lindenwood, now first year as assistant at Virginia.

Rick Majerus; dead.

Jim Crews: dead man walking --- and he will retire more than anythign else on leaving here.

If you go down the assistants list, only Jay Spoonhour, Derek Thomas Randy Bennett, Cameron Dollar and Porter Moser have become head coaches elsewhere. And those are at dregs outposts like Eastern and Western Illinois, Loyola of Chicago, Seattle Univeristy and St. Mary's of California.

Saint Louis University is going to have to take a massive flyer on whomever the next coach will be.

I wouldn't call St Mary's a dreg.

[JMM28]

If we have an opening, lots of guys on the board are going to start suggesting that we should get Marshall or someone like him. That's just not reasonable. Doesn't matter that we can pay around a million or that we have great facilities. If he moves, he's going big like Shaka or Brad Stevens. The other coaches in conferences like the Missouri Valley that we would want, the ones having recent success, will say to themselves that they would rather stay with the rising program they are building with their half million dollar salary and hold out for a BCS job rather than come to a high mid major school that needs to rebuild for a few hundred thousand dollars more.

You've dreamt a scenario and are preemptively scolding people for it when in reality you are the only one that thinks this ridiculous notion. Strange.

[3star_recruit]

You've dreamt a scenario and are preemptively scolding people for it when in reality you are the only one that thinks this ridiculous notion. Strange.

It's not a dream. This isn't the first time the subject of coaching replacement has come up on this board. We have some pretty well known posters who think we could have gotten a Steve Prohm or Bryce Drew if we dumped Crews after last season. Never mind that those guys have much better options.

Everybody wants the next Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart without having to take the risk on an unknown. You know when you're in the best position to take a gamble on an inexperienced young coach. When you can hand him a team of upperclassmen who already won 20+ games the previous year. That should have happened after Majerus but Crews did too good a job as interim coach. He was a good coach once and with the shooters we have coming in, he'll be a good coach again.

[JMM28]

It's not a dream. This isn't the first time the subject of coaching replacement has come up on this board. We have some pretty well known posters who think we could have gotten a Steve Prohm or Bryce Drew if we dumped Crews after last season. Never mind that those guys have much better options.

Everybody wants the next Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart without having to take the risk on an unknown. You know when you're in the best position to take a gamble on an inexperienced young coach. When you can hand him a team of upperclassmen who already won 20+ games the previous year. That should have happened after Majerus but Crews did too good a job as interim coach. He was a good coach once and with the shooters we have coming in, he'll be a good coach again.

Agreed on your second paragraph.

I was specifically saying that no rational poster on here was going to suggest Gregg Marshall when he's already at a much superior program with a couple billionaires backing him.

[TheChosenOne]

That should have happened after Majerus but Crews did too good a job as interim coach. He was a good coach once and with the shooters we have coming in, he'll be a good coach again.

I don't care to weigh in too much on the coaching discussion beyond saying that it is the athletic directors job to identify candidates who could be a good fit at SLU, selling those candidates on why SLU is an attractive opportunity for them, and ultimately hiring the best candidate. SLU plays in a conference just outside of the power six conferences, has quality facilities, and is a quality University located in the middle of the country. I don't buy into the discussion that we can't find a good basketball coach, that is the job of the athletic director and he has a solid package to sell. To the extent he cannot make quality hires, then we need a new athletic director.

Who are the shooters we have coming in that will make Crews a good coach again? How many more years are on Crews' contract?

[slu72]

Yeah, who are these shooters that are going to carry us to new heights and save Jimmy's job?

[Clock_Tower]

Majerus part 2 is exactly that. Majerus was a one in a million but there are some like him. A lower level veteran coach who has been to several NCAAs but doesn't want the pressure of a big time job. Those guys are out there and BCS schools and high major schools don't want them but they are perfect for our situation, just like Majerus was. Obviously Rick Byrd would be the best candidate like this but there are others, similar coaches (who I'm not saying we should hire but are in the mold) are Gary Waters, Fran O'Hanlon, Dan Monson, Scott Sutton, Eddie Payne, Scott Nagy, Steve Hawkins, & Mike Young.

Torch. Appreciate the names. I took them and did a little digging and found the following:

Coach Age Salary Current School

Rick Byrd 62 $709,101 Belmont

Gary Waters 64 $340,000 Cleveland State

Fran O'Hanlon 67 $313,087 Lafayette College

Dan Monson 53 $325,297 Long Beach State

Scott Sutton 45 $115,870 Oral Roberts

Eddie Payne 59 $146,000 USC Upstate

Scott Ney 49 $152,000 South Dakota State

Steve Hawkins 53 $310,000 Western Michigan

Mike Young 52 $161,043 Wofford