Reality -- trolling and nonsense free thread

[ACE]

I have read more nonsense on this board in recent weeks than I have in a long time. I have read ridiculous things like we have no plan or strategy, we don't recruit, Crews can't coach, we are light years behind Dayton's program, we have no talent, etc. It is a bunch of nonsense.

Unless your name is Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, or North Carolina, college basketball is a game of recruiting cycles. A few years ago IU was everyone's top team, this year they were thrilled to be in the tournament. In recent years, a lot of top teams haven't made the tournament or have been in the tournament but haven't won games. This includes programs like UCLA, Iowa, Oklahoma State, UNLV, and Utah. Dayton was awful for years before last year. Where is Mizzou, Marquette, Illinois, etc.? Gonzaga and Xavier are extreme outliers, not the norm.

Getting in the tournament and winning a game isn't easy. It is a difficult process that can start with a 5-win season followed by a 12-win season (1991-1993) or a 12-win season (2010-11). This year, we have a core group or talented freshmen who needed experience, coaching, and strength and fitness training. I watched every game from the 90s team and every game from the Majerus' team. This year's group of freshmen is similar and, in many ways, better. All the people trashing Gillmann don't understand basketball; you don't find kids his size with his hands and coordination. Bartley has a combo of handles, shot, and height we have rarely had at a guard. Roby is the kind-of doing everything athlete we always complain about not having on our roster. Milk can flat out play; did anyone else notice his game fell off when he lost his legs? Reggie and Crawford showed us a lot last month.

Like everyone on this board, I hoped for more this year. However, I remember running into a very connected poster on this board a few weeks before the season. He had seen the team practice multiple times and had spent time with those close to the team. His comment was that the kids have a ton of talent but little clue. He said it was going to be a rough year and we would be lucky to finish .500; he also said this group should provide the long-term core to get us back to the tournament and beyond. Everything he said six months ago still rings true.

Oh yeah, I am guessing Crews still knows a little bit about coaching and recruiting.

Good post. Some of the ranting on the board in recent weeks has become tiresome, so I think there is room for some good level-headed discussion about the direction of the program. True that success often goes in cycles. Just two years ago, I recall SLU beating the crap out of Dayton, building a 30+ lead over SVU. That Dayton team had several freshman, including Pierre who were taking their lumps. A year or two earlier their program had also lost their coach and a big-time recruit in Juwan Staten. So from that Feb. 2013 game to now, SVU added a good PG in Scoochie, another nice forward in Pollard, a freshman sharpshooter in Davis and an impact transfer in Sibert.

Let's not forget, Dayton was hardly a powerhouse this year. Just this past Feb. our lowly Billikens were beating them by 3 with 4 minutes to go. If our offense is just poor, rather than dreadful in that game, we win and SVU doesn't even make the Dance this year. But you have to give them credit for accumulating some talent over the last couple of years. That is the question I have about our program. There was so much hand-ringing this year about JC's strategy and ability to develop talent, but to me the most important question is about accumulating talent - recruiting. Yes, we have a few decent freshman to build around, but not a great group. Jolly and Reynolds are questions. A couple guys are capable of being impact players and the rest project as solid role players. These two open scholarships are an opportunity to build up the talent level on the roster. The current group alone is not going to get it done. I'm not too concerned about the number of scholarships in 2016. That will sort itself out. Whether it is a JUCO, 5th year transfer, HS, foreign player or prep school player, we need to add talented players this spring where ever we might be able to find them.

[brianstl]

They're closing in on a deal, should be official later today

Non traditional SEC power are starting to load up on proven winners. Pearl, Martin, and now Howland.

[waldo027]

I have read more nonsense on this board in recent weeks than I have in a long time. I have read ridiculous things like we have no plan or strategy, we don't recruit, Crews can't coach, we are light years behind Dayton's program, we have no talent, etc. It is a bunch of nonsense.

Unless your name is Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, or North Carolina, college basketball is a game of recruiting cycles. A few years ago IU was everyone's top team, this year they were thrilled to be in the tournament. In recent years, a lot of top teams haven't made the tournament or have been in the tournament but haven't won games. This includes programs like UCLA, Iowa, Oklahoma State, UNLV, and Utah. Dayton was awful for years before last year. Where is Mizzou, Marquette, Illinois, etc.? Gonzaga and Xavier are extreme outliers, not the norm.

Getting in the tournament and winning a game isn't easy. It is a difficult process that can start with a 5-win season followed by a 12-win season (1991-1993) or a 12-win season (2010-11). This year, we have a core group or talented freshmen who needed experience, coaching, and strength and fitness training. I watched every game from the 90s team and every game from the Majerus' team. This year's group of freshmen is similar and, in many ways, better. All the people trashing Gillmann don't understand basketball; you don't find kids his size with his hands and coordination. Bartley has a combo of handles, shot, and height we have rarely had at a guard. Roby is the kind-of doing everything athlete we always complain about not having on our roster. Milk can flat out play; did anyone else notice his game fell off when he lost his legs? Reggie and Crawford showed us a lot last month.

Like everyone on this board, I hoped for more this year. However, I remember running into a very connected poster on this board a few weeks before the season. He had seen the team practice multiple times and had spent time with those close to the team. His comment was that the kids have a ton of talent but little clue. He said it was going to be a rough year and we would be lucky to finish .500; he also said this group should provide the long-term core to get us back to the tournament and beyond. Everything he said six months ago still rings true.

Oh yeah, I am guessing Crews still knows a little bit about coaching and recruiting.

And Purdue, and Texas, and Washington, and New Mexico, and Georgia Tech, and Wake Forest, and Pitt, and many more. Schools that were very good 10, 15, 20 years ago but have been struggling recently.

Great post, nark. When things are good, they'll be good forever. When things aren't good, they'll be bad forever and will never change. I would guess most other fan message boards follow this pattern.

[Bizziken]

Good post. Some of the ranting on the board in recent weeks has become tiresome, so I think there is room for some good level-headed discussion about the direction of the program. True that success often goes in cycles. Just two years ago, I recall SLU beating the crap out of Dayton, building a 30+ lead over SVU. That Dayton team had several freshman, including Pierre who were taking their lumps. A year or two earlier their program had also lost their coach and a big-time recruit in Juwan Staten. So from that Feb. 2013 game to now, SVU added a good PG in Scoochie, another nice forward in Pollard, a freshman sharpshooter in Davis and an impact transfer in Sibert.

And they only lose 1 player from this year's team. Granted, it's their leading scorer and arguably their best player (Sibert) but they have a transfer and a JuCo ready to vie for his spot. Archie has a serious shot to 'pull an us' and go to 3 straight Tournaments. Hopefully we will resume the Dayton annihilating the year after...

[3star_recruit]

Dayton hasn't had a season as bad as the one we just had in 20 years. They've made six tournaments in the past 15 years. That's twice as many as we have in that timeframe.

The idea that we're NOT currently light years behind Dayton's program, or that Dayton was "awful" before this year, is one of the most ridiculously nonsensical things I have read on here. You often see Xavier mentioned as the model on here, but the reality is we have a long way to even catch up with Dayton.

Well, if you're going to start the clock 15 years ago, then yeah. If you start the clock 5 years ago, the programs are about equal. We'll see what the next 5 years look like. It's not going to be easy to replace Archie Miller after one of the big boys scoops him up.

[3star_recruit]

There was so much hand-ringing this year about JC's strategy and ability to develop talent, but to me the most important question is about accumulating talent - recruiting. Yes, we have a few decent freshman to build around, but not a great group. Jolly and Reynolds are questions. A couple guys are capable of being impact players and the rest project as solid role players. These two open scholarships are an opportunity to build up the talent level on the roster. .

Basketball is not that complicated. If you're having problems scoring then you need to recruit scorers, especially at the guard positions. Is it any surprise that the two best scoring underclassmen on this squad were bonafide scorers in high school?

[Clock_Tower]

Anyone who says grow up makes me want to hurl.

The only thing a redshirt year does for Jolly is make it harder for him to transfer. Or it leaves SLU with a project for 5 years instead of 4.

And frankly I think the wash basin stuff was before he was a serious recruit. Maybe it should have stayed that way.

JMM28. Then go ahead and hurl. Do what you need to do. You will probably feel better afterwards.

And you are wrong about the wash basin stuff. The entire time, our staff was recruiting Jolly, then offered Jolly and Jolly accepted. Did SLU become more "serious" as time went on? Sure, isn't that true will all kids? Aren't we more serious in recruiting high school JR's than we are highschool FR and SO's? With Jolly, though, it appears that Crews may have offered Jolly but conditioned it upon his going to prep school and his natural progression (he did go and reports about him did suggest that his game was improving, he putting weight on, getting stronger, etc.). After Jolly was not offered/no acceptance of a scholarship that Spring, Jolly announced that he was going to Prep School, not here, and that is when the juvenile wash basin comments were made -- most likely while Jolly was off at prep school doing exactly what he and Crews had likely discussed. If our current players read this Board, isn't it natural to assume that recruits we have offered do as well? Are no negative comments allowed b/c a player or recruit may read them and get upset? Of course not. But repeated mean comments should not be acceptable. And Jolly aside, such treatment is simply not good for our program -- even with recruits with whom we might be less "serious". Our Board simply looks bad.

Again, if Jimbo doesn't like Jolly or any other player, then write a few posts, express your opinion and move on. The endless mocking of current players is just plain mean. Again, does anyone else remember back when Jimbo was actually funny? Sure been awhile.

[slufanskip]

Good Post Nark. You are saying what I've been saying all year. I believe we have good things to come and will make substantial progress over the off season. I believe this mainly due to what I've seen from Roby, Bartley and Milik. I'm currently unsold on Austin or Jolly. I think both have potential especially Austin, but both have a lot of work to do. Crawford also has the chance to be a 10-12 ppg player imo and Reggie is going to be a beast on the boards. There are good things to come, but we obviously need to keep signing players the caliber of last years class.

[maverick]

Interesting thread as always. I was in Brooklyn for the final game, but before had only seen them play once (no longer in STL so am limited to the radio feed and TV feed when available.) I was impressed with some of the improvement I saw, but like others disappointed not to see more development.

I've been a fan since the early 1980s, so I went back and looked at the data (conveniently made available here http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/saint-louis/#saint-louis::none ) to see how we've bounced back before after similarly bad seasons.

Below are graphs, over time, of our Winning Percentage and also our "Simple Rating System" (SRS) score. (For those, like me, who aren't familiar with this stat, here the info: "Simple Rating System; a rating that takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule. The rating is denominated in points above/below average, where zero is average, although it should be noted that margin of victory has been assigned a lower bound of 7 points and an upper bound of 24 points. Non-major opponents are included as a single team in the ratings.")

Since this thread has referenced Dayton so much, I threw them in as a comparison school.

It doesn't really matter which outcome metric you use, the basic point is that we really fell off the wagon this year (duh - didn't need a graph to tell us that.) It's also clear that we're going to get better next season (didn't need a graph for that either.)

What I find interesting is the question that has come up a lot on the boards: how much do we recover next year? And the year after. Is next season a march back to the heights of the past few years (and 94-95), or do we simply recover to the more pedestrian Romar-Soderberg levels of something like "above average, but not great"?

Or, put another way: what if we get better next year, and even better the following year, but ... we don't get close to ascending to the Sweet 16? Are we satisfied?

Here are the graphs:

[SluSignGuy]

From these graphs, I like that I became a Billiken fan in the worst year during the Spoonhour era.

[slufan13]

I see high potential in all but maybe one or two of the guys on next year's roster. Now, potential means absolutely nothing. It's up to the players, assistants, and head coach to make sure that everything possible is done to reach that potential. It will take a lot of long hours in the gym throughout the summer. And not just the required amount by the coaches. If even 3 or 4 guys do the minimum, we won't be any better. But if these guys put in the required hours and reach that potential, we can be a solid team next year. If they don't - well we saw what happened. Average progression isn't good enough. Some want to sugarcoat this season and chalk it all up to youth, but we have a long way to go.

Some on here are also convinced that by getting a year older, you'll become a better player. I present you with John Manning and Tanner Lancona. But - getting a year older should mean getting stronger and more in shape. And that alone should help us in February and help us at the end of games.

Am I more optimistic than I was 2 weeks ago? Yes. But we have a long way to go. The 2010-11 comparisons have been proven to be invalid, but for those that still believe them....We jumped 100 spots from 10-11 to 11-12. If we jump 100 spots this year, we'll be ranked 194th. Which is still terrible. Long way to go. But as I said in another thread. There are 2 or 3 clear leaders who are as dedicated as Conklin, Kwamain, etc. If the rest follow them, we will make that long trip to being good again.

[slu72]

What is disconcerting about this group is the way we closed the season. Blowouts against Fordham and the massacre at the Fetz by GM. Something went terribly wrong with this team. I think we're all wondering, and will wonder until they play again, what caused this team to run off the tracks?

[Dwayne's_World]

What is disconcerting about this group is the way we closed the season. Blowouts against Fordham and the massacre at the Fetz by GM. Something went terribly wrong with this team. I think we're all wondering, and will wonder until they play again, what caused this team to run off the tracks?

No leadership? If we have a guy who steps up as a leader and makes everyone around him buy into the team offense and team defense, then we could see some substantial improvements next year. The talent is there, the players just need to make it happen. I think Roby and Crawford are the two guys that need to put everyone else in their place next season. If any player gets frustrated or selfish, I'd like to see Roby tearing him a new one on the sidelines.

Another reason why you absolutely cannot compare this past season's team to the 2010-2011 team. That team had proven leaders, this one did not.

[Old guy]

I think the Wiz identified the win against LaSalle as the final time when the team rose to the occasion, only to lose the remaining games. This, he reasoned, indicated that something had gone radically wrong inside the team. I agree fully with the Wiz's statement. Whether the problem or problems was due to issues between players, or players and staff, or coach and players,or even multiple layers of problems at different levels has never been clear. What is clear, and has been clear for some time, is the absolute need to correct whatever it was that went wrong at that time. This may be as simple as eliminating a couple or players, but in reality it may be a complex combination of issues that require correction.

So, where do we stand after the separation of TL and AM? If we look at the glass half empty, there may be multiple areas of friction or dysfunction within the team left untouched as yet. If we look at the glass half full, the problem has been completely eliminated. I am afraid reality is likely to lie between these extremes.

Now then, it should be beyond a doubt to anyone that it is the head coach's responsibility to effect a complete correction of the team's dysfunctional issues to a degree that will permit an improved performance next season. It stands to reason that if the ongoing correction of the team's dysfunctional issues is inadequate to allow a significant performance improvement for next season, the head Coach should bear the responsibility for this lack of success in correcting the team's problems and thought should be given to replacing him. Period.

I have been a supporter of Crews all along, but this may change this coming season. We will see if Crew's actions are effective in solving the team's issues. Until this happens, I will have to withdraw my full support of Crews and replace it with a question mark.

[Cowboy]

-if the report that the scholarships were not renewed is true then I have a little more faith in Crews

-from article posted on Jan 17, 2015 at USAToday.com....In another significant change, the schools and the reps narrowly approved legislation that will prevent schools and coaches from choosing not to renew an athlete's scholarship for athletic reasons. Under the system that has been in place, most athletic scholarships are subject to annual renewal. ----- were the dismissals of AMc and TL not for "athletic reasons"? or has this change not been implemented yet?

[kshoe]

Another reason why you absolutely cannot compare this past season's team to the 2010-2011 team. That team had proven leaders, this one did not.

Who were the "proven" leaders on the 2010-11 team? At that time of course.

[VeniceMenace]

It was interesting hearing Ben Howland when he did the color commentary for the Billikens vs Vandy game. He actually spoke highly of all the frosh specifically Jolly and Milik. He said the the Billikens had some great years ahead with the younger talent.

Announcers commonly find good things to say about players from both sides...it makes for a more popular announcer.

He or another announcer this year said Roby was one of the top defensive freshmen in America...just like Cusamano once said of a fiery Soderberg on the sidelines "There isn't a harder working coach in America..." Hyperbole..

[thetorch]

Who were the "proven" leaders on the 2010-11 team? At that time of course.

Conklin, Cassity

[JayOren1]

Point taken. I guess I'm in the minority because I consider an NIT bid a solid season.

Agree and some big time programs in there this year. Minority here to. Seems most on here can over look any and everything.

[AlumniFan]

Agree and some big time programs in there this year. Minority here to. Seems most on here can over look any and everything.

I have great memories from our NIT runs in the late 80s. Of course I would prefer the NCAA tourney, but an NIT bid, especially with a strong performance in it, is definitely a good thing. Those who diss the NIT seem to me to just be full of bravado, not substance.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I have great memories from our NIT runs in the late 80s. Of course I would prefer the NCAA tourney, but an NIT bid, especially with a strong performance in it, is definitely a good thing. Those who diss the NIT seem to me to just be full of bravado, not substance.

The NIT is a good tournament, and a tough one. Teams have used it in recent times as a good stepping stone to the NCAA Tournament the following year.

[Bobby Metzinger]

The NIT is a good tournament, and a tough one. Teams have used it in recent times as a good stepping stone to the NCAA Tournament the following year.

And in VCU's case, the CBI helped launch them into the Final Four the next season.

[hsmith19]

The CBI has lost a lot of cachet since SLU and VCU were in the final. At the time I got the sense people were a little curious about it as the next new thing. Lots of talk about how deserving teams got shut out of the NIT by bottomfeeders in major conferences, a la that Bills team. Now the CBI is firmly entrenched in third or fourth tier obscurity.

[Soderball]

The CBI has lost a lot of cachet since SLU and VCU were in the final. At the time I got the sense people were a little curious about it as the next new thing. Lots of talk about how deserving teams got shut out of the NIT by bottomfeeders in major conferences, a la that Bills team. Now the CBI is firmly entrenched in third or fourth tier obscurity.

The SLU-VCU series was super exciting. Quality ball. I got enraged at that tourney. Shouted some things i regret shouting. Shouted a lot more i dont regret. Have hated on vcu ever since.

I was optimistic then, willie was a monstrosity and we looked like a potential elite 8 the next year. Then "the situation" happened.

Agree that it was the high point of the cbi.

Nit would be a solid year no doubt.

The bills were dead last this year. Cbi and crap should be down years for the bills, not the dumpster fire we got.if jim cant at least take us to the nit next year, he needs to be canned. Right now he is Mr. Washed Up. He has to be given another year obviously, but next year he needs to be on notice. SLU is doing less with more now. The 80 million arena has given us this? Once upon a time veteran MBMs will remember i defended brad soderberg. I was taught the error of my ways and will not defend crews.

[Bizziken]

The SLU-VCU series was super exciting. Quality ball. I got enraged at that tourney. Shouted some things i regret shouting. Shouted a lot more i dont regret. Have hated on vcu ever since.

We were so beat up that Darrin Young, a walk-on, got some PT and sparked a run with a bucket or two. That got Chaifetz rocking. Despite losing the game, that was a great Billiken moment.