Hardball Call Out!

[Taj79]

First of all, my apologies for the harshness of the title of this thread. It was done to get your attention and nothing more. In the thread on McCombs out of Chicago, you stated some pointed accusations about the coaching staff. You called out the blue juice drinkers and I responded this way:

"I profess NOT to drink the juice .... but I have to ask Hardball, you are the head coach ... given what we have above, what would you do differently?

I'm ready to gulp down the "Hardball" liquor. What change are you advocating? Short of changing the coach, because if that's all you are advocating, so be it and if that's where you stand, that's where you stand. But .. outside of that .. what are your answers to this and other fiascos?"

You have not responded to my questions and I wanted to post a new thread in order to call your attention to it and not wait for you to find it going through the other thread.

So what is it? What are your answers? If you're on here to anonymously attack Brad Soderberg, so be it. But let's callit what it is. If you're not, answering this question will be easy.

[Hardball]

Taj79,

There is no need for an apology as it relates to the title of this thread on my account. All I have is my own opinions. I do not suggest my opinions are in any way more valid than yours or any other Billiken supporter. I have real concerns over the direction of the Billiken basketball program. I think the program can be better, should be better given the fact other Head Coaches with limited resources or time on the job are getting it done relative to our basketball program.

My Top 5 suggestions for BS:

1. FIND A WAY TO GET ANTHONEY BONNER ON YOUR STAFF OR INVOLVED WITH YOUR PROGRAM. Do what ever it takes to get him involved. AB could be a great recruiting tool when talking to players because he can speak from experience. Anthony was not a McDonald's All American coming out of high school yet through hard work and the right direction he became an NBA player. What a story to tell recruits. Why wouldn't SLU or BS do everything within their power to leverage this story? Let kids know they could do the same and here's how! Make him an offer he can't refuse!

Secondly, make a REAL effort to bring Larry Hughes back into the Billiken family. This is another great resource we should be leveraging at every opportunity. Hughes brought James and Iverson to a basketball camp at CBC this summer and the kids ate it up. If his high school can do it shouldn't SLU be able to do the same? Just imagine how a potential recruit would feel if on his official visit he "just happen" to meet and chat with Hughes and friends. As the commercial says...Priceless. When you have a resource such as Hughes it pays for itself to maintain a close relationship. No excuses here if there has been a falling out of some sort fix the problem because in the end SLU will benefit.

2. HIRE A PROVEN RECRUITER. Your assistants may be great guys but they are not getting the job done. I do not want to hear that SLU does not pay their assistant coaches enough to make this a reality. If SLU will not up the anti sacrifice some of your own salary to make it happen. I am serious with this suggestion. I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. We need players. If SLU wants to be a Top 20 program we need to begin picking our players not taking other schools leftovers. A big time recruiter will get early commitments, generate excitement and will consistently win the battles with the Mid-Con conferences. I assure you that if BS would find a way to make this financial consideration he will receive the benefit tenfold.

3. CHANGE YOUR OFFENSE AND RUN. Trust me, recruits do not get excited about the possibility, nor do they want to play slow down ball in the 30's or 40's. I'm sure every recruit has heard this negative comment from opposing coaches. BS has promised a running game every year and yet for whatever reason he falls back into his control game. I know it is hard to change but BS must if we are going to optimize our current talent. BS needs to understand that with a running game you will have more turnovers and more ill advised shots but accept the drawbacks because you will also get more offensive sets for Ian and more shots for your shooters. But most importantly you will eliminate the negative recruiting and have a system that recruits will want to come play for.

4. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX WHEN RECRUITING. STOP the seven-evaluation requirement nonsense. BS has been around basketball along time at all levels and he should know by now who can play and who can't. Also don't listen to friends of the program when they tell you a local recruit is not interested in coming to St. Louis University. It is your job to convince the player why St. Louis University is the BEST OPTION. Much has been made about offering the Suggs brother a scholarship. I would make that deal in a second if it meant SLU would get the basketball player. Brandenberg had a brother playing for Kirkwood last year that same deal should have been talked about with the Brandeberg family. I would bet no such conversation took place. Making these deals should not be looked upon as a sign of weakness but rather doing whatever it takes to better your program. Brown did it with Manning at Kansas, Williams made a deal to get Gideon’s at Kansas and Calapari does it all the time. If thinking outside the box and making deals is good enough for Kansas and Memphis it should be good enough for SLU. BS has to work smarter and harder than the big boy's and as long as it is legal be creative THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

5. INCREASE YOUR PROFILE. Spoon was awesome at this. Get involved in High profile City activities, adopt a charity, be a regular at the Cardinal games or on their broadcasts, get on a Rams broadcast. It is almost like running for an elective office. While all these are just suggestions they are just ways to keep Billiken Basketball front and center. This is the HC responsibility as the Ambassador of Billiken basketball. Many are counting on him to carry the Billiken torch. It is in his own best interest to be in the news outside of the Basketball season. I have heard BS on with Shannon and he does a nice job he just needs to do it more often. Yesterday was a great day for the Billikens because everyone was talking about the new Arena. I would suggest BS finds ways to make this the norm rather than the exception. By increasing the visibility of Billiken basketball and making it a frequent topic of conversation it will only pay huge dividends when recruiting the local athletes.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I can't argue with much of what you've said at all. I've been calling for SLU to get Bonner affiliated with the program for years, and I'm disappointed it hasn't happened. Erwin Claggett should also be an asset the school taps into, even if they don't hire him as a coach. It would also be nice to see Larry Hughes be friendly with the program, but I would focus more on Bonner and Claggett, because they earned a degree from the university, while Hughes didn't.

[Taj79]

My apologies were put out first in order that you understood I wasn't coming after you for coming-after's sake, that I really wanted to hear what your thoughts were on the matter and not bash for bash's sake. I also didn't want others to think this was a post that was not related to Billiken basketball, as some of the Vtime and Phan and Billiken Rich posts have denigrated into. This was a true attempt to solicit what you had to say. Many times folks post a time bomb or two and slink off inot the night without explianing themselves. This was meant to bring you back to the issue.

I, like thicks, agree with some of the statements you've made above and also can't argue with the thoughts expressed. If my apologies were in order, surely my thanks for your answering this way are as well. So ... thanks ... an interesting and thought provoking post. Much to chomp on here.

[billiken_roy]

hardball said,

"My Top 5 suggestions for BS:

1. FIND A WAY TO GET ANTHONEY BONNER ON YOUR STAFF OR INVOLVED WITH YOUR PROGRAM. Do what ever it takes to get him involved. AB could be a great recruiting tool when talking to players because he can speak from experience. Anthony was not a McDonald's All American coming out of high school yet through hard work and the right direction he became an NBA player. What a story to tell recruits. Why wouldn't SLU or BS do everything within their power to leverage this story? Let kids know they could do the same and here's how! Make him an offer he can't refuse!"

if bonner is truly interested in being a true assistant coach that puts in all the time and travel that today's college coaches do, i am all for it and agree he can use his past to assist local players into deciding to come. my two concerns with it though are

1. how many local high school kids even know who he is? remember, some of these kids werent even born when he was leading the nation in rebounding and he hasnt been in the nba for years.

2. the life of a recruiting college assistant coach is hell. they put in long long hours, especially in the summer recruiting and travel everywhere and anywhere to be effective. bonner even in his european pro days probably isnt used to that kind of work. not saying he wont do it, but i cant help but remember clyde drexler quiting and stating how much work it was and he never realized such.

Hardball said,

"Secondly, make a REAL effort to bring Larry Hughes back into the Billiken family. This is another great resource we should be leveraging at every opportunity. Hughes brought James and Iverson to a basketball camp at CBC this summer and the kids ate it up. If his high school can do it shouldn't SLU be able to do the same? Just imagine how a potential recruit would feel if on his official visit he "just happen" to meet and chat with Hughes and friends. As the commercial says...Priceless. When you have a resource such as Hughes it pays for itself to maintain a close relationship. No excuses here if there has been a falling out of some sort fix the problem because in the end SLU will benefit."

i believe that slu has reached out to hughes on a number or occasions. he was even put in the billiken hall of fame a couple of seasons ago. look at our previous hall of fame folks. has anyone else only played one year at slu?

i am also under the impression that programs using nba players for recruiting purposes when there is no previous relationship with that recruit is now illegal by the ncaa. sure "bumps" (when a recruit runs into a coach or player unscheduled outside of normal allowable recruiting practices) happen, but it would be slu's responsibility to always explain and document the happening. my guess is excessive bumps would be questioned and eventually cause problems.

the one thing it would be nice to see from larry hughes is some giving back to saint louis university. besides his basketball experience, the slu hospital did save and extend his brothers life a number of years.

Hardball said,

"2. HIRE A PROVEN RECRUITER. Your assistants may be great guys but they are not getting the job done. I do not want to hear that SLU does not pay their assistant coaches enough to make this a reality. If SLU will not up the anti sacrifice some of your own salary to make it happen. I am serious with this suggestion. I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. We need players. If SLU wants to be a Top 20 program we need to begin picking our players not taking other schools leftovers. A big time recruiter will get early commitments, generate excitement and will consistently win the battles with the Mid-Con conferences. I assure you that if BS would find a way to make this financial consideration he will receive the benefit tenfold."

our coaches are not underpaid. if an assistant coach is not doing the job, i too would love to see changes. i suspect that there is substance in the rumors of the reason anthony beane is no longer around. but i hope you arent advocating bringing in coaches that wont follow the rules or have a tendency to walk in the gray areas. that will never be tolerated at slu.

hardball said,

"3. CHANGE YOUR OFFENSE AND RUN. Trust me, recruits do not get excited about the possibility, nor do they want to play slow down ball in the 30's or 40's. I'm sure every recruit has heard this negative comment from opposing coaches. BS has promised a running game every year and yet for whatever reason he falls back into his control game. I know it is hard to change but BS must if we are going to optimize our current talent. BS needs to understand that with a running game you will have more turnovers and more ill advised shots but accept the drawbacks because you will also get more offensive sets for Ian and more shots for your shooters. But most importantly you will eliminate the negative recruiting and have a system that recruits will want to come play for."

if you dont have the players to fit the system you are only setting yourself up to lose by even larger margins. at least in the past 7-8 seasons (after hughes left, i dont think there has been much of a change in the offensive production of spoon, romar or soderberg) the patient style did give us a chance to win. i see your point, but it is a catch 22 of sorts. you say we cant get the recruits without that style of play, i suspect we cant stay in the games without the old style of play and the recruits wont come to a loser either. which comes first? imo, while we had some ugly games last year, we also had more break outs than in any season in a long long time. the charlotte game which imo was the best game of the year, was definitely not an example of a slowdown game. st joes two games were as painful as any game. hopefully as the player talent level continues to increase (which i think has) the game can continue to get faster.

hardball said,

"4. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX WHEN RECRUITING. STOP the seven-evaluation requirement nonsense. BS has been around basketball along time at all levels and he should know by now who can play and who can't. Also don't listen to friends of the program when they tell you a local recruit is not interested in coming to St. Louis University. It is your job to convince the player why St. Louis University is the BEST OPTION. Much has been made about offering the Suggs brother a scholarship. I would make that deal in a second if it meant SLU would get the basketball player. Brandenberg had a brother playing for Kirkwood last year that same deal should have been talked about with the Brandeberg family. I would bet no such conversation took place. Making these deals should not be looked upon as a sign of weakness but rather doing whatever it takes to better your program. Brown did it with Manning at Kansas, Williams made a deal to get Gideon’s at Kansas and Calapari does it all the time. If thinking outside the box and making deals is good enough for Kansas and Memphis it should be good enough for SLU. BS has to work smarter and harder than the big boy's and as long as it is legal be creative THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX."

i doubt that coach soderberg has the seven evaluation period as a standard for all recruits. just the ones that he isnt sure of. we all know about the stemler deal. i believe that statement was made early in stemler's season when coach soderberg was looking exclusively for a power forward. i still say if you want stemler for a power forward, he wasnt the answer. if you wanted stemler to replace drejaj and be our small forward and shoot the ball great. he would have been a great pickup. at the time, danny brown was starting, polk was starting, and lisch was coming off the bench. soderberg like most beleived we were stocked for the guard spots. so why take stemler if he isnt obviously better. in november, there was nothing to show stemler was going to be a juco all american that hit threes like crazy. he was coming off of redshirt and injury seasons. basically got cut by bradley. why would anyone have thought different?

even then, by all accounts he was ready to come until sampson walks in at the last minute and promises the indiana mistique. so the seven evaluation b.s. really meant nothing to stemler. it was always about who had the shiniest lights etc. let's wait and see if stemler truly becomes a hoosier legend or if he plays mediocre minutes and gets recruited over this next season.

as to the two for one deals, i have never been a fan of take a brother to get a brother deal. spoon got burned on the robertsons offering it. romar refused to take both of the opplands. that said, we dont even know if the brandenburg family is asking for it or the suggs. hell the younger suggs kid is stil in junior high isnt he? no way i am tying up a roster spot for 5 years down the road for a player that some are saying might be a one or two year player. that is almost like putting yourself on probation and agreeing to forfeit a scholarship.

hardball said,

"5. INCREASE YOUR PROFILE. Spoon was awesome at this. Get involved in High profile City activities, adopt a charity, be a regular at the Cardinal games or on their broadcasts, get on a Rams broadcast. It is almost like running for an elective office. While all these are just suggestions they are just ways to keep Billiken Basketball front and center. This is the HC responsibility as the Ambassador of Billiken basketball. Many are counting on him to carry the Billiken torch. It is in his own best interest to be in the news outside of the Basketball season. I have heard BS on with Shannon and he does a nice job he just needs to do it more often. Yesterday was a great day for the Billikens because everyone was talking about the new Arena. I would suggest BS finds ways to make this the norm rather than the exception. By increasing the visibility of Billiken basketball and making it a frequent topic of conversation it will only pay huge dividends when recruiting the local athletes."

i would much rather spoon would have been out recruiting instead of sitting his a$$ at a cardinal game or holding court at some bar. Soderberg has his own radio show. is a regular on the sunday night shows when asked, he has commercials on tv.

i will say this, every time the billiken club has come to belleville in the last 15 years for fund raisers and such, the absolute worst coach was spoon. he would pop in shake a couple of hands, tell 2 or 3 jokes or stories and be gone in a grand total of about 15 minutes. both romar and soderberg have always made themselves available for the duration of the event. at our tipoff club meetings, spoon rarely if ever showed up. romar never missed a one. soderberg is there more than not. i think want you want is for soderberg to become more of a put on celebrity. somewhat of a media darling/magnet.

personally i thought spoon was a huge fake. that good ole boy stuff went so far and his big fear was that if he truly got out in the real public they'd see through it. so he controlled the appearances such that he could change his colors for the camera and microphone. personally, i'd rather have our geniune people that coaches romar and soderberg are. spoon was a nice practice and bench coach, but that is the extent of my love for the spoon show.

[slufanskip]

I'll add my 2 cents also

1. I agree

2. I agree

3. Coach never promised to run before this season. He did say he would not hold them back and I don't believe he did. I have been at numerous practices where he strongly encouraged them to push the tempo. The problem was in the confidence and skill of the players. Also it is hard to run without the ball. You have your pg as one of your top rebounders. I expect to see them run more this year and UB has said it won't be a suggestion, but a requirement. Players like DP and DB will have to be better at finishing and we will have to have a 4 that can rebound.

4. If we think we have a team that can be in the tourney this year, we must think he's done a decent job of recruiting the past couple of years ... time will tell

5. I agree

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[Cowboy]

-do we know ab wants to be involved in the slu program?

-do kids, even stl hs kids today, know who ab is?

-the point about larry and bringing friends to cbc vs slu is out of whack in one regard if nothing else, mccormack was around larry how many yrs?? 4 while playing and how many while being recruited?? (yes, recruited) spoon, his coach at slu, is no longer affiliated with slu

-would having larry around be cool?? perhaps, but i doubt he has much allegience to slu but agree this relationship should be cultivated, if it is not already being done which we don't know

-his stubborness as far as offense is one of his greatest weaknesses, all i know is that if you win recruiting is easier

-you can't ask ub to be someone he is not, in the events i have attended where he spoke he was great, but if baseball or football or hockey don't interest him i think you would see the forced nature and this would not help the situation, although it was cool to see rams introduced at various games during their glory years (i am not a ram fan), this was probably done thru the ath dept not the head coach

[3star_recruit]

This thread was in response to Brad's statement before the season of wanting to get out in transition.

http://www.billikens.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/d...orum=DCForumID3

[slufanskip]

The article won't come up ... it says it is no longer available ... did it say he promised to run ... or he would like to get out in transition. I think he did want to ... as I said, I heard him numerous times pushing them to run in practice.

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[3star_recruit]

You can't keep saying you want to run before each season without doing it and continue to maintain credibility. So why say it? Here's the full article, BTW. The transition comments are in the last couple of paragraphs.

SLU leans on Vouyoukas

The Billikens will build offense around well-traveled post player from Greece.

St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO)

October 14, 2005

Author: Tom Timmermann

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

When Ian Vouyoukas got off the plane in St. Louis in August when he returned for school, the St. Louis University center had had enough.

Vouyoukas, a native of Greece, had just finished his fourth transatlantic trip in four months and frankly, he was tired of it. "As soon as I got off the plane from Philadelphia to St. Louis," he recalled, "I said I don't want to get on a plane for a while. I was sick of flying."

Vouyoukas' hectic summer saw him play in the European junior basketball championships in Russia and the world junior championships in Argentina. (Schedule conflicts kept him out of events in Canada and Chile.) SLU coach Brad Soderberg sees Vouyoukas as a key to his team's success this season as they move to the Atlantic 10 and try to put an ugly 9-21 season behind them.

"He's logged a lot of miles and gained a lot of experience," Soderberg said. "We're banking on Ian to have a good year for us. We need his presence in the post to translate into baskets this year."

Vouyoukas, who averaged 6.9 points a game last season as a sophomore, had about three weeks of rest when he went home to Greece for the summer before joining the national junior team in preparation for the European championships. The team trained for six weeks, traveling to tournaments in Russia, on a Greek island and in Serbia to get ready.

The Greeks finished fifth at the European championships, with Vouyoukas starting and averaging 8.9 points and 6.1 rebounds a game. "I played pretty well overall," he said, "but I wish we had done better as a team."

Next up were the world championships in Argentina, and Vouyoukas was so tired that he suggested he be left off the team, but the Greeks were short on big men on their junior team and asked him to play just 10 to 15 minutes a game.

So after the European tournament, he returned to Greece to rest for a week before heading off to join the team in Argentina. Getting there involved the 6-foot-10 Vouyoukas spending 14 hours in a coach seat on a flight from Rome to Buenos Aires on Alitalia. "That might be one of the worst trips I've ever done," he said. "It was ridiculous. I was lucky because I got an emergency exit seat, so it wasn't too bad. ... You just have to deal with it."

From Buenos Aires, he had to take another flight to Cordoba, the site of Greece's first-round games. Greece reached the tournament final, losing to Lithuania 65-63. Vouyoukas played just 11 minutes in the final, scoring two points. For the tournament, Vouyoukas, playing just 13 minutes a game, averaged 4.1 points and 2.1 rebounds a game and shot well from neither the field (33.3 percent) nor the line (39.1 percent). After the tournament, Vouyoukas went home for nine days with his family before coming back for the start of classes at SLU. "It was a long summer," he said, "and a tiring one."

Now, his focus is on the Billikens, who open practice tonight in West Pine Gym on campus. "I am excited," he said. "We have an opportunity to start on a clean plate after last year. Last year, we were just trying to dig ourselves out of a hole. This year, we're at ground level. It depends if we're going to build a house or build a big home."

Whatever SLU is building, Soderberg wants the Billikens to get there quickly and then get inside. The NCAA now allows teams to work out twice a week for an hour in the fall before the opening of regular practices, and Soderberg used that time to retool his offense.

"We'll be a much more exciting team than the past three," he said. "We have a number of guys who are comfortable running the floor and we're taking advantage of that.

"Ian's role will be huge. We really need him to play well. We've made some adjustments to our offense to ensure he plays well. We'll make him the hub of our offense. I don't think that's a big surprise. Our other main difference is we're going to try to be a force in transition. I'm hoping the plan is solid."

Vouyoukas is game to try. Just keep the plane flights short.

[slufanskip]

Again ... I think he did want to run, especially to begin the season. It doesn't matter what you want to do when the players can't consistently execute, and our Bills didn't execute. They didn't rebound or hit open looks consistently. DP pushed the ball up the floor alot ... only to pull it back. You will have a very hard time convincing me that UB didn't want him to take it to the hole and score if he thought he could. Problem is Dwayne couldn't. DB also couldn't finish last year ... and who was going to rebound? I'm telling you I was at a few practices and UB was always on them to push the tempo.

I think early in the year he expected DP to shoot better, they said they worked all summer on his shot and he was shooting better in early practices. I also think he expected more consistent play from DB. I think he tried to put them in the best position to win. This year if we still can't rebound or shoot from the outside ... we still won't be successful with an uptempo game. The players have to perform.

3star ... you know the game better than that.

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[3star_recruit]

The fact of the matter remains that Brad has announced his intentions to run the last two seasons. Why keep getting the hopes of the fanbase up with these statements when all it does is piss off fans when it doesn't happen? I'd rather Brad not announce his intention to run and then be pleasantly surprised if the team happens to pull it off during the season.

[Omnipotent]

Hardball.. Great Post Excellent points..

The Larry Hughes issue is what I would like to point out.

I heard that before last season Devin Crosby tried to bring Larry Hughes back into the program. He had Chris Sloan set up a meeting with Justin Tatum, John Redden and Larry. The issue was not that Larry didn't want to be back in the program, but that Justin and John didn't like Romar and felt as if SLU neglected Justin after his knee injury. So therefore, Larry wanted nothing to do with the program.

So Devin and Chris have this meeting at Joe Boccardi's with the greatest asset SLU has and BRAD DIDN'T SHOW UP.

I know some of you will make some excuse for him, but there shouldn't be any reason to miss that meeting.

[slufanskip]

I don't disagree with that.

This year he just stated that running wouldn't be a suggestion but a requirement. He said that is what he thinks gives us the best chance to win. Now if half way into the season and we are attempting to run unsuccessfully and he changes his game plan ... will everybody *****.

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[Box and Won]

With regards to assistant coaches, I think that the hiring of Jamall Walker will turn out to be a very good one for the the program. He's bright, charismatic and a former Billiken to boot.

[cheeseman]

I agree with the point that if you are not really sure you have the talent to run then why say it and if you do have the talent then what happened. In defense of Polk, what good would it do for him to push the ball down court to the basket and find himself the only player down there going against 3 of the opponents. He pulled it back because nobody was there for him to pass. AB - great idea but maybe neither party is able to reach an agreement about the terms. I know the pay for asst. coaches is reasonable based on information I have read. Brad will be more visible once the team has success - he will have no choice in the matter. Larry Hughes has never really seemed all that interested in SLU after he left. The story about Brad not showing up to a meeting with Crosby, Sloan, Tatum, Redden, and Hughes is intersting. Why would Brad say he would come and not show up? Did he say he could not or would not come - if so then why schedule the meeting? Was Hughes really coming or was it a meeting that people said they might come? I am not doubting the report just trying to square it with my questions.

[moytoy12]

UB isn't necessarily one to change a game plan so dramatically mid-season. He doesn't even do it mid-game, which has consistently been my biggest gripe.

I get your point though, people will ***** regardless.

[3star_recruit]

I disagree. If we averaged in the low 70s but were only .500 at mid-season and decided to switch back to his old game plan, only the people who have a personal vendetta against Brad would *****. But honestly, what are the chances of us only being .500 if we're averaging in the low 70s?