Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[mrjoelabs]

20 hours ago, 2010andBeyond said:

2 of the 3 have been mia from practice since shortly after the news broke/presumably the appeals started

Who has been at practice then? That seems odd as well.

[almaman]

1 hour ago, HoosierBilliken said:

If I was Pestello, I would have the four players compose a heart felt apology letter to the orgy survivors, put money in the envelope, and call it a day, then secure a promise that there will be no further orgies the rest of the time at school.  This isn't that difficult to solve.

stopping orgies may be hard girls will be girls after all.

[BillyCan]

^Ha

[2010andBeyond]

1 hour ago, mrjoelabs said:

Who has been at practice then? That seems odd as well.

I believe Bishop is still practicing

[William Iken]

8 hours ago, Basketbill said:

Are you leaping to the assumption that only one person took pictures and posted ? I have not heard that stated as fact. Have you?

No, hence the "it seems" line. We don't know, only going on what has been cobbled together. We could all be getting the facts wrong. If so, as in if the allegation is rape/assault and it is proven true, I will be the first to condemn the players. I won't for group sex, photos and videos with knowledge.

In regards to the legal question - it may be hard to win a case when the allegation was not made publicly but only as part of a legal process. But if the girls talked to the media or others, it could be a plausible claim.

[slusam]

Good article by Stuart Taylor about ending the campus bias on sexual assault.  He discusses the rule changes coming from the federal government. They may be to late for our guys. Obviously I don't know how to post the links from articles or I would. Hopefully my daughter will teach me the next time she is home.

I think there is starting to be some backlash to the #Meto movement. Hopefully some common sense will take over. 

[TGSLU]

19 minutes ago, slusam said:

Good article by Stuart Taylor about ending the campus bias on sexual assault.  He discusses the rule changes coming from the federal government. They may be to late for our guys. Obviously I don't know how to post the links from articles or I would. Hopefully my daughter will teach me the next time she is home.

I think there is starting to be some backlash to the #Meto movement. Hopefully some common sense will take over. 

The SLU case, based at least on what has been posted here as the facts, seems to me to hurt cases where women have really been violated.  If the SLU players committed rape they should be punished to the fullest extent.  I would have thought the PD and St. Louis Prosecuting Attorney would have these guys in custody by now if they committed rape.  This occurred last September right-- I cannot imagine it takes this long for the criminal process to work if there is a criminal action here.  Title IX seems to only punish male participants and the whole concept of revoking consent to actions that have already occurred is some kind of folly.  Also absurd is the now expansion of consent or non consent to being photographed when at the time of the action the parties knew they were being photographed.  No one involved with this mess seems to have an iota of common sense or equal protection. Title IX is inquisition like-- these guys were considered guilty from the get go and now the case is just being contrived to support the original supposition.  There is no innocent until proven guilty, at least not in Title IX.

[Bobby Metzinger]

9 minutes ago, TGSLU said:

The SLU case, based at least on what has been posted here as the facts, seems to me to hurt cases where women have really been violated.  If the SLU players committed rape they should be punished to the fullest extent.  I would have thought the PD and St. Louis Prosecuting Attorney would have these guys in custody by now if they committed rape.  This occurred last September right-- I cannot imagine it takes this long for the criminal process to work if there is a criminal action here.  Title IX seems to only punish male participants and the whole concept of revoking consent to actions that have already occurred is some kind of folly.  Also absurd is the now expansion of consent or non consent to being photographed when at the time of the action the parties knew they were being photographed.  No one involved with this mess seems to have an iota of common sense or equal protection. Title IX is inquisition like-- these guys were considered guilty from the get go and now the case is just being contrived to support the original supposition.  There is no innocent until proven guilty, at least not in Title IX.

Meet me in St. Louis Salem. 

[Spoon-Balls]

Title IX is just a sweeping attempt by radical feminists across the US to re-write the social mores surrounding normal, consensual behaviors in the bedroom. It is an attempt to bureaucratize  sex in a manner that is favorable to women, because in the radicals' minds, men have always had a power advantage in society, and this is just one way to take men down a notch. I agree men have historically had unfair advantages in the workplace, but swinging the pendulum so as to limit the constitutional rights of men today is a travesty.  Ironically, some more reasonable feminists have been calling this phenomenon a new form of "sexual puritanism."

When you look at the whole issue of Title IX regarding campus sex activities, it's obvious to see where it all originated from. Women's and genders studies professors, radical feminist groups, and other completely biased entities that really pushed the narrative that "sexual assault is happening at unprecedented levels." In reality, the number of reports has gone up primarily because the definition of "assault" has been molded by these same radical groups who want to classify all forms of normal consenting behavior as some degree of "assault." 

Terrifying for young males in today's society. Hopefully the federal government will swing the pendulum back to where it should be. Our constitutional rights should not be dictated by biased, radical groups. 

[Quality Is Job 1]

Like I said before, with Title 9, it's neither "innocent until proven guilty" nor "guilty until proven innocent."  It's:

Guilty... until... dead.

[RiseAndGrind]

You can think that Title IX is horrible policy and not think it is due to a radical feminist agenda. 

[Quality Is Job 1]

12 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

You can think that Title IX is horrible policy and not think it is due to a radical feminist agenda. 

Title 9 has been corrupted.  It's supposed to be a means of ensuring equal educational opportunities for women from institutions.  It's not supposed to turn those institutions into an independent state that prosecutes men for activities for which the law of the land won't prosecute them.

[gobillsgo]

 

 

uncle tony hearing a decision on appeal coming today? 

[Billboy1]

Hope Rosenblum is ready to do what is needed

[Cowboy]

Just now, Billboy1 said:

Hope Rosenblum is ready to do what is needed

-I hope he doesn't have to

[brianstl]

It is beyond disgusting what the school is doing to these young men.  They are destroying the lives of these young men.  I don't think they can fix the damage that has been done. I really don't even care about about the damage it has caused to the basketball program anymore.  The harm that is being inflicted on these young men should anger everyone.  

[Pistol]

14 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

You can think that Title IX is horrible policy and not think it is due to a radical feminist agenda. 

You can also think that Title IX is a mostly good policy with some problems that still need to be worked out, as colleges have clearly not been applying it consistently or clearly. What's become obvious in recent years is that it needs some clarifications in order to force universities to improve their policies. When a university can interpret the law to mean that a single individual can be given carte blanche to take an investigation and interpret it any way he/she chooses, only to leave the university open to inevitable lawsuits - and settlements, usually - then there's a major problem.

It can be true that sexual assaults have been underreported and underpunished for a long, long time. It can also be true that colleges are seriously mishandling these cases. The goal should be to find the balance in which victims aren't afraid to report their cases, each case is handled carefully, and justice is served fairly. This is going to be hard to achieve when Title IX is being interpreted inconsistently, and when students themselves arrive at college with minimal and/or poor sex ed. Male and female students alike are unclear about the definition of consent, and that needs to be taught at a much earlier age.

This is an extremely complicated subject and has begun to be handled with some nuance in the national press, as we've seen in previously linked NY Times and Atlantic articles. I wish there were local media members who paid more attention to SLU and were up to the task of handling this case - and broader Title IX and college sexual assault issues - with the depth it deserves. I'm afraid if that ever happens, it will be too little, too late.

[Tilkowsky]

23 hours ago, HoosierBilliken said:

As long as Tilkowsky's incorrect views are posted here, I will respond when I choose.

The basketball players should be held to the same standard, not a higher standard, as any other student at SLU.  Males should be held to the same standard, not a higher standard, as any other gender at SLU.  The administrators that affect suspensions and expulsions should be held to a higher standard of judgement and discretion, than dumb teenage students.  We expect more out of experienced and supposedly professionally trained persons to be fair to dumb students and not use them as political tools to right perceived injustices conducted by males or student athletes.

Get off your high horse Tilkowsky.  

The players are held to a HIGHER standard because they have an opportunity for a FREE college education. The rest of the student body is PAYING for their education in some way.

The other thing is that the basketball players are HIGH PROFILE members of the University. Most people don't care about rank and file members of the student body.

Little kids ask basketball players for autographs not random students.

The administrators that have handed down the suspensions have done a good job. It needs to be clear that orgies, then the filming of, then the posting online of WILL NOT be tolerated by anybody. Especially by high profile members of the University.

If you want to get rid of Title IX I suggest contacting your local Congressman. They have the power to do it.

Somewhere I read that SLU was a CATHOLIC University. I would think the mission of a Catholic University would be to teach ETHICS and MORALS. Something in short supply in the basketball team it seems.

BillyCan - Yes the fact that the girls were involved in an orgy bothers me as well. But, they weren't charged with sexual assault by one of the participants.The girls didn't film the encounter like the players did. The girls make didn't post the encounter online like the players did (only one may have actually done the posting in my mind the other three are guilty of telling him not to do it or not telling him to take it down).

If the guys want to charge the girls with sexual assault then there will be an investigation. 

[BillyCan]

Charged with sexual assault??

[billikenfan05]

Tillybear is up early again obsessed with billikens.com

 

[CBFan]

6 minutes ago, brianstl said:

It is beyond disgusting what the school is doing to these young men.  They are destroying the lives of these young men.  I don't think they can fix the damage that has been done. I really don't even care about about the damage it has caused to the basketball program anymore.  The harm that is being inflicted on these young men should anger everyone.  

Brian I have felt this way a month into this because of no charges or arrests and these young men's reputation have been damaged.

There are things that I have done in my youth that no one will ever know except the people involved that would do harm to my career so I feel for these guys that will have this hanging over them.

[Clock_Tower]

16 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

The players are held to a HIGHER standard because they have an opportunity for a FREE college education. The rest of the student body is PAYING for their education in some way.

The other thing is that the basketball players are HIGH PROFILE members of the University. Most people don't care about rank and file members of the student body.

Little kids ask basketball players for autographs not random students.

The administrators that have handed down the suspensions have done a good job. It needs to be clear that orgies, then the filming of, then the posting online of WILL NOT be tolerated by anybody. Especially by high profile members of the University.

If you want to get rid of Title IX I suggest contacting your local Congressman. They have the power to do it.

Somewhere I read that SLU was a CATHOLIC University. I would think the mission of a Catholic University would be to teach ETHICS and MORALS. Something in short supply in the basketball team it seems.

BillyCan - Yes the fact that the girls were involved in an orgy bothers me as well. But, they weren't charged with sexual assault by one of the participants.The girls didn't film the encounter like the players did. The girls make didn't post the encounter online like the players did (only one may have actually done the posting in my mind the other three are guilty of telling him not to do it or not telling him to take it down).

If the guys want to charge the girls with sexual assault then there will be an investigation. 

Again  you are dead wrong. Many kids are walking SLUs campus with full scholarships and are not held to higher standards.  And nearly everyone else has some type of financial aide package. Justice is not imposed depending upon the amount of tuition one pays. 

You may put high profile players on a pedaestal but that is you and and your personal agenda. And don’t ever attempt to speak for young kids. Your comments are wrong and childish. Not childlike. Look up the difference. 

[Littlebill]

4 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Again  you are dead wrong. Many kids are walking SLUs campus with full scholarships and are not held to higher standards.  And nearly everyone else has some type of financial aide package. Justice is not imposed depending upon the amount of tuition one pays. 

You may put high profile players on a pedaestal but that is you and and your personal agenda. And don’t ever attempt to speak for young kids. Your comments are wrong and childish. Not childlike. Look up the difference. 

Definition of insanity....

[Box and Won]

51 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Again  you are dead wrong. Many kids are walking SLUs campus with full scholarships and are not held to higher standards.  And nearly everyone else has some type of financial aide package. Justice is not imposed depending upon the amount of tuition one pays. 

You may put high profile players on a pedaestal but that is you and and your personal agenda. And don’t ever attempt to speak for young kids. Your comments are wrong and childish. Not childlike. Look up the difference. 

No need to respond to Tilky.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Quality Is Job 1

[SShoe]

41 minutes ago, Pistol said:

You can also think that Title IX is a mostly good policy with some problems that still need to be worked out, as colleges have clearly not been applying it consistently or clearly. What's become obvious in recent years is that it needs some clarifications in order to force universities to improve their policies. When a university can interpret the law to mean that a single individual can be given carte blanche to take an investigation and interpret it any way he/she chooses, only to leave the university open to inevitable lawsuits - and settlements, usually - then there's a major problem.

It can be true that sexual assaults have been underreported and underpunished for a long, long time. It can also be true that colleges are seriously mishandling these cases. The goal should be to find the balance in which victims aren't afraid to report their cases, each case is handled carefully, and justice is served fairly. This is going to be hard to achieve when Title IX is being interpreted inconsistently, and when students themselves arrive at college with minimal and/or poor sex ed. Male and female students alike are unclear about the definition of consent, and that needs to be taught at a much earlier age.

This is an extremely complicated subject and has begun to be handled with some nuance in the national press, as we've seen in previously linked NY Times and Atlantic articles. I wish there were local media members who paid more attention to SLU and were up to the task of handling this case - and broader Title IX and college sexual assault issues - with the depth it deserves. I'm afraid if that ever happens, it will be too little, too late.

Well said on these 3 major points.  The suggestion that these Title 9 investigations are some sweeping effort by lefty, feminist radicals completely ignores the flip side of the coin, which is that real sexual assault is all too common on college campuses and there needs to be a process for schools to properly adjudicate these assaults.  That said, this investigation has certainly opened my eyes to the need for various reforms. 

It's also unfortunate that the local paper has not done any actual investigative reporting on this one, as it would've been a great opportunity to highlight these issues and bring some notoriety to the paper.  My guess is that the resources are just not there, but there are other local papers doing this type of work (see Indianapolis Star and Larry Nassar).  I understand the SLU bball team doesn't generate the clicks, but the Title 9 stuff does.