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davidnark

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In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

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1 minute ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

Well said

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2 minutes ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

Preach!

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8 minutes ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

David your an attorney. What’s to keep Rosenblum from seeking an injunction forcing SLU to allow the players to play. Then seeking a judgement saying their rights were violated by gender bias decision. 

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3 minutes ago, willie said:

David your an attorney. What’s to keep Rosenblum from seeking an injunction forcing SLU to allow the players to play. Then seeking a judgement saying their rights were violated by gender bias decision. 

I think what is stopping them from doing this is the amount of time and effort for a school that CLEARLY does not want them there. 

 

They are best served by spending their time and energy suing the school for as much cash as they can get and appealing to the NCAA to get back on the court at a school that does want them as quickly as possible.

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6 minutes ago, willie said:

David your an attorney. What’s to keep Rosenblum from seeking an injunction forcing SLU to allow the players to play. Then seeking a judgement saying their rights were violated by gender bias decision. 

It would likely be a TRO. Would primarily need to show strong likelihood of success on underlying legal claim and irreparable harm that cannot be adequately remedied through monetary damages. I don't know what the underlying claim would be, but I assume it would be based upon civil rights. The respective races of everyone involved wouldn't go unnoticed. I am sure it is under strong consideration. 

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1 hour ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

Radical and extreme.  Perfect descriptors. There is absolutely no way this conclusion could have been reached without bias.

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They were in a no-win situation. Just because criminal charges weren't filed that doesn't mean there weren't civil violations. The burden of proof is much higher for a criminal charge than proving civil misconduct. SLU could have expected to be sued regardless of their decision. If there was no #MeToo movement, then this could have possibly been a different outcome.

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2 hours ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

Completely shook or complete shock ? Both work. But yes. Absolutely terrible mishandling by our Alma mater. Just want to sit down and have a nice 'talk' with one Fred pisstello

Good Luck!!!

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2 hours ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

+1

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2 hours ago, davidnark said:

In one radical and extreme decision, the university killed it's men's basketball program, destroyed it's top marketing tool, and bought itself a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It also cost itself tens if millions in revenue. Gross incompetence of this magnitude from an organization this large is rare and shocking. There were No Criminal Charges so they didn't have to do this! Pestello should resign. 

I'd have put this in the main thread, but I think my comments after having time to collect my thoughts fit better here. 

Unless the Circuit Attorney's Office files criminal charges early next week, this has the potential to work out very badly for SLU. If Rosenblum's comments are even close to accurate, then these guys have been essentially branded as sexual predators because 1-3 women were embarrassed after the fact. If the punishment was something to the effect 1 semester, or time served, then you could think that the behavior of the players was a little unsavory, and the university wasn't comfortable in letting it go unpunished, but of course that isn't what happened. 

If Rosenblum's narrative gets into the right or wrong hands, depending on your view of things, you could be looking at journalists looking around the university's practices, or potentially even the federal government poking around. As we've learned from this, it's always best to avoid the investigation phase, because anything can happen. At minimum, the university has set itself up to be the defendants in civil suits which may be filed by the players. As has been discussed, there is precedent of universities ending up paying settlement money in these suits, so SLU could be looking at several hundred thousand dollars in civil damages and legal fees there.

On to basketball: this obviously hurts the basketball program badly. Maybe the players we have that are eligible to play stay at SLU, and maybe we can keep some recruits. Key emphasis on maybe. I think we'll see some defections though. We will be behind the 8 ball in recruiting in the future, at least with some players. For probably the next 5 years, every African-American player we recruit will hear the following from competing coaches, and maybe people within their own circles: "If you go to SLU, you'll get thrown out of school for even looking at a white girl." How's that going to work out for us? Depending on how Ford feels about how this process has gone, he could decide to leave for the first chance he gets to get out of here, and we have to start over at square one. A few more years of bad records, declining attendance and interest, and slipping further into mediocrity.

I guess if there is one silver lining for SLU, it's that they'll probably still do well in getting white, suburban, female prospective students to enroll, as they and their parents can feel comfortable that if daddy's little girl has a regrettable experience with a black man, never fear: SLU will swoop in and buff that black guy out so she can go on with her life and her parents don't have to worry about being embarrassed.

I will add that with some exceptions, most of us here don't really know what happened that night. At some point in time, more details will likely come out, and maybe they will reveal some type of misconduct that justifies some or all of these suspensions. We'll have to wait to find out.    

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13 hours ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I'd have put this in the main thread, but I think my comments after having time to collect my thoughts fit better here. 

Unless the Circuit Attorney's Office files criminal charges early next week, this has the potential to work out very badly for SLU. If Rosenblum's comments are even close to accurate, then these guys have been essentially branded as sexual predators because 1-3 women were embarrassed after the fact. If the punishment was something to the effect 1 semester, or time served, then you could think that the behavior of the players was a little unsavory, and the university wasn't comfortable in letting it go unpunished, but of course that isn't what happened. 

If Rosenblum's narrative gets into the right or wrong hands, depending on your view of things, you could be looking at journalists looking around the university's practices, or potentially even the federal government poking around. As we've learned from this, it's always best to avoid the investigation phase, because anything can happen. At minimum, the university has set itself up to be the defendants in civil suits which may be filed by the players. As has been discussed, there is precedent of universities ending up paying settlement money in these suits, so SLU could be looking at several hundred thousand dollars in civil damages and legal fees there.

On to basketball: this obviously hurts the basketball program badly. Maybe the players we have that are eligible to play stay at SLU, and maybe we can keep some recruits. Key emphasis on maybe. I think we'll see some defections though. We will be behind the 8 ball in recruiting in the future, at least with some players. For probably the next 5 years, every African-American player we recruit will hear the following from competing coaches, and maybe people within their own circles: "If you go to SLU, you'll get thrown out of school for even looking at a white girl." How's that going to work out for us? Depending on how Ford feels about how this process has gone, he could decide to leave for the first chance he gets to get out of here, and we have to start over at square one. A few more years of bad records, declining attendance and interest, and slipping further into mediocrity.

I guess if there is one silver lining for SLU, it's that they'll probably still do well in getting white, suburban, female prospective students to enroll, as they and their parents can feel comfortable that if daddy's little girl has a regrettable experience with a black man, never fear: SLU will swoop in and buff that black guy out so she can go on with her life and her parents don't have to worry about being embarrassed.

I will add that with some exceptions, most of us here don't really know what happened that night. At some point in time, more details will likely come out, and maybe they will reveal some type of misconduct that justifies some or all of these suspensions. We'll have to wait to find out.    

Don't agree with the bolded at all. SLU had a basketball player accused of sexual assault before the season, they allowed him to play all season, then severely punished him for his role in the alleged sexual assault. I have no problem with them holding the 3 out of games while they're being investigated, specifically to avoid this type of scenario, where they let a basketball player play and then later have to say whoops, turns out we had a sexual predator representing SLU on the biggest stage, but please keep sending your daughters to SLU.

SLU made the absolute worst decision they could have in this situation. Ruined this season, ruined the program for the foreseeable future, while also sending the message that a sexual predator was allowed to represent the university on the biggest stage.

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Nark nailed it at the top of this thread. Saint Louis University has sacrificed their future at the altar of public opinion. Good luck marketing this dumpster fire of a university to minority students. 

I hope, when this is all done, that there is a big, smoking crater where SLU used to be after the lawsuits close the place. 

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On 1/19/2018 at 6:26 PM, davidnark said:

It would likely be a TRO. Would primarily need to show strong likelihood of success on underlying legal claim and irreparable harm that cannot be adequately remedied through monetary damages. I don't know what the underlying claim would be, but I assume it would be based upon civil rights. The respective races of everyone involved wouldn't go unnoticed. I am sure it is under strong consideration. 

I am a Dayton Flyer fan that followed the University of Dayton’s Title IX investigation of Dyshawn Pierre in 2015 closely.  There is plenty of information available on-line including the Title IX report, police reports and federal court documents involving a TRO and the dismissal of  of Pierre’s civil case in 2017. 

In Pierre’s case the Montgomery County prosecutor elected to not pursue criminal charges approximately two months before the Title IX investigation was completed.  The girl involved did not report the case to UD’s Title IX office, rather an assistant softball coach did after overhearing other girls talking about the incident.  This was approx. three weeks after the incident occurred.  At that time, the girl went to the University’s Medical Center for a rape examination despite the fact that there is major hospital with a level 1 trauma center 1/4 of a mile away from the University.  The nurse that provided the examination indicated in the Title IX report that she had no experience with sex related crimes. The Title IX report indicated that the girl went to Pierre’s room voluntarily, left Pierre’s room three times for various reasons and climbed in to Pierre’s bed three times before the alleged incident occurred.  Apparently Pierre slept in a platform bed that required the girl to use a chair to step up on to a desk and then step to the bed.  She did this three times.  She passed Pierre’s roommate two times in the hallway and did not show any signs of distress.  His roommate testified that he did not hear anything in any manner.  She also changed her story multiple times.  Pierre has a learning disability that makes it difficult for him to articulate his thoughts in writing.  He was deemed to have violated the University’s code of conduct because he was not able to “adequately articulate” the girl provided consent.

Pierre retained an attorney from a NYC boutique law firm that specializes in these case and lost every time in federal court.  Basically, there is legal precedent that essentially allows a private university to establish its own code of conduct policy and as long as the policy is  precisely followed the accused has no recourse in the courtroom.  Obviously, each case is different, and some Title IX decisions have been ruled unconstitutional, but the decks are stacked against the accused.  I believe that Public Universities are required to establish policy that actually provide the accused with some due process.

The reason for having Title IX is good, but past guidance given by Civil Rights division of the Dept of Education is over the top.  Schools are afraid of retribution for not following this guidance that includes the loss of federal aid / grants and issues with federal student loan programs.

 

 

 

Edited by UD_Flyer
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1 hour ago, UD_Flyer said:

I am a Dayton Flyer fan that followed the University of Dayton’s Title IX investigation of Dyshawn Pierre in 2015 closely.  There is plenty of information available on-line including the Title IX report, police reports and federal court documents involving a TRO and the dismissal of  of Pierre’s civil case in 2017. 

In Pierre’s case the Montgomery County prosecutor elected to not pursue criminal charges approximately two months before the Title IX investigation was completed.  The girl involved did not report the case to UD’s Title IX office, rather an assistant softball coach did after overhearing other girls talking about the incident.  This was approx. three weeks after the incident occurred.  At that time, the girl went to the University’s Medical Center for a rape examination despite the fact that there is major hospital with a level 1 trauma center 1/4 of a mile away from the University.  The nurse that provided the examination indicated in the Title IX report that she had no experience with sex related crimes. The Title IX report indicated that the girl went to Pierre’s room voluntarily, left Pierre’s room three times for various reasons and climbed in to Pierre’s bed three times before the alleged incident occurred.  Apparently Pierre slept in a platform bed that required the girl to use a chair to step up on to a desk and then step to the bed.  She did this three times.  She passed Pierre’s roommate two times in the hallway and did not show any signs of distress.  His roommate testified that he did not hear anything in any manner.  She also changed her story multiple times.  Pierre has a learning disability that makes it difficult for him to articulate his thoughts in writing.  He was deemed to have violated the University’s code of conduct because he was not able to “adequately articulate” the girl provided consent.

Pierre retained an attorney from a NYC boutique law firm that specializes in these case and lost every time in federal court.  Basically, there is legal precedent that essentially allows a private university to establish its own code of conduct policy and as long as the policy is  precisely followed the accused has no recourse in the courtroom.  Obviously, each case is different, and some Title IX decisions have been ruled unconstitutional, but the decks are stacked against the accused.  I believe that Public Universities are required to establish policy that actually provide the accused with some due process.

The reason for having Title IX is good, but past guidance given by Civil Rights division of the Dept of Education is over the top.  Schools are afraid of retribution for not following this guidance that includes the loss of federal aid / grants and issues with federal student loan programs.

 

 

 

How can a guy that can't articulate his thoughts in writing get through college?

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2 hours ago, UD_Flyer said:

I am a Dayton Flyer fan that followed the University of Dayton’s Title IX investigation of Dyshawn Pierre in 2015 closely.  There is plenty of information available on-line including the Title IX report, police reports and federal court documents involving a TRO and the dismissal of  of Pierre’s civil case in 2017. 

In Pierre’s case the Montgomery County prosecutor elected to not pursue criminal charges approximately two months before the Title IX investigation was completed.  The girl involved did not report the case to UD’s Title IX office, rather an assistant softball coach did after overhearing other girls talking about the incident.  This was approx. three weeks after the incident occurred.  At that time, the girl went to the University’s Medical Center for a rape examination despite the fact that there is major hospital with a level 1 trauma center 1/4 of a mile away from the University.  The nurse that provided the examination indicated in the Title IX report that she had no experience with sex related crimes. The Title IX report indicated that the girl went to Pierre’s room voluntarily, left Pierre’s room three times for various reasons and climbed in to Pierre’s bed three times before the alleged incident occurred.  Apparently Pierre slept in a platform bed that required the girl to use a chair to step up on to a desk and then step to the bed.  She did this three times.  She passed Pierre’s roommate two times in the hallway and did not show any signs of distress.  His roommate testified that he did not hear anything in any manner.  She also changed her story multiple times.  Pierre has a learning disability that makes it difficult for him to articulate his thoughts in writing.  He was deemed to have violated the University’s code of conduct because he was not able to “adequately articulate” the girl provided consent.

Pierre retained an attorney from a NYC boutique law firm that specializes in these case and lost every time in federal court.  Basically, there is legal precedent that essentially allows a private university to establish its own code of conduct policy and as long as the policy is  precisely followed the accused has no recourse in the courtroom.  Obviously, each case is different, and some Title IX decisions have been ruled unconstitutional, but the decks are stacked against the accused.  I believe that Public Universities are required to establish policy that actually provide the accused with some due process.

The reason for having Title IX is good, but past guidance given by Civil Rights division of the Dept of Education is over the top.  Schools are afraid of retribution for not following this guidance that includes the loss of federal aid / grants and issues with federal student loan programs.

 

 

 

Well that was terrifying, thanks 

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19 hours ago, kmbilliken said:

How can a guy that can't articulate his thoughts in writing get through college?

With the proper resources and much hard work, graduating college is an achievable goal for people with communication disabilities. I am very surprised you wrote that.

On the other hand, I have seen very smart college graduates with no communication disability who self immoliated during legal testimony.

going before a hanging judge, without legal representation, is enormously difficult.

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