cgeldmacher Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I didn't have that much of a problem with the article. I think the main point was that it is unfortunate that this situation is holding SLU back from promoting the team. That is an accurate sentiment in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 43 minutes ago, bonwich said: Any number of things have happened while or since I was there that illustrate an utter collapse of standards. A large part of this is the complete impossibility of putting out a "good" (by old-fart standards) product with no copy editors, an average age that's rapidly approaching 25 and resulting obliteration of institutional memory, and succumbing (they had not much choice) to the "feed the beast" approach to journalism. Plus a significant portion of management has simply come up through the ranks of "classic" journalism (and at least a few are incompetent), so they don't even know what they don't know. Clear enough? Yes, thank you. Was genuinely curious to hear your perspective on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Very sad and very clear Bonwich. The ignoramuses rule, at least at the PD. You could write a piece with that title. Kshoe, until the players are officially exonerated by the legal authorities, anything can happen. When we hear from the legal authorities that they fully are exonerated of any and all charges, then they are fully exonerated. Until this time comes you and your sources are just feeling the direction the wind blows at the time. Again, the University can handle this situation any way they want, as long as it does not conflict with the title IX requirements. Sexual assault is not the only issue in the University rules, there are many other issues they may well be judged upon. There is a broad spectrum of actions the University may decide to take either before or after the legal decision to charge or not to charge is made, including letting them play first and then suspending or expelling them. Until the University decision is finally announced, this issue is not over over. You are free to believe absolutely anything you want but until the final action is taken you just do not know what it will be. This issue may well be resolved quickly if the legal portion of the investigation results in a full exoneration of the players from any and all charges before the season starts. If this does not happen, the University will have a tough decision to make. From my point of view the longer the investigation drags on the worse the likely results for the players will be. You are free to believe anything you wish to believe but, all leaks you may be privy to, the fat lady has not sung yet in this case. 57 minutes ago, kshoe said: I don't see the university letting them play games if they believe there is a realistic chance that legal or university hearings would find the players guilty of sexual assault. I'm sure SLU understands the value of expediency here and every indication we have received is there won't be legal proceedings (you may not be privy to some of the same information I am which is why you keep insisting legal proceedings are quite possible). I fully expect this to be resolved, one way or the other, by the time the season starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, Old guy said: Very sad and very clear Bonwich. The ignoramuses rule, at least at the PD. You could write a piece with that title. Kshoe, until the players are officially exonerated by the legal authorities, anything can happen. When we hear from the legal authorities that they fully are exonerated of any and all charges, then they are fully exonerated. Until this time comes you and your sources are just feeling the direction the wind blows at the time. Again, the University can handle this situation any way they want, as long as it does not conflict with the title IX requirements. Sexual assault is not the only issue in the University rules, there are many other issues they may well be judged upon. There is a broad spectrum of actions the University may decide to take either before or after the legal decision to charge or not to charge is made, including letting them play first and then suspending or expelling them. Until the University decision is finally announced, this issue is not over over. You are free to believe absolutely anything you want but until the final action is taken you just do not know what it will be. This issue may well be resolved quickly if the legal portion of the investigation results in a full exoneration of the players from any and all charges before the season starts. If this does not happen, the University will have a tough decision to make. From my point of view the longer the investigation drags on the worse the likely results for the players will be. You are free to believe anything you wish to believe but, all leaks you may be privy to, the fat lady has not sung yet in this case. Old Guy, I see no reason that the university would wait for the legal side to complete its investigation if it wants to throw the book at the students for violation of university guidelines. They are two different standards. If they've determined that the students' conduct was in violation of the university's code of conduct and warranted suspension or expulsion, they have no obligation to wait for the district attorney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I don't know what you expect in the form of exoneration from the police. The police never released the names of the players accused and never took them into custody. There is no evidence that there has been any form of criminal investigation in weeks. The police never treated the accused as criminals. Why would the police need to exonerate anyone? RiseAndGrind, SLU_Nick, Box and Won and 1 other like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Metzinger Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 56 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said: Why hasn't the Post ever hired a real fan of the SLU program to write columns and keep people up to date on the program? Does Stu Durando even get paid for a full time job? Conflict of interest; when I worked at the newspaper in Peoria, I could never cover Peoria Notre Dame athletics - not even the "Olympic Sports." My biases would blind me from objectively covering the other teams. It's true. My fockin high school is the shiiit! But seriously, we could never have someone with SLU ties be affiliated as a beat boy/girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Bobby Metzinger said: Conflict of interest; when I worked at the newspaper in Peoria, I could never cover Peoria Notre Dame athletics - not even the "Olympic Sports." My biases would blind me from objectively covering the other teams. It's true. My fockin high school is the shiiit! But seriously, we could never have someone with SLU ties be affiliated as a beat boy/girl. Does Dave Matter lack ties to Mizzou? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Metzinger Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Quality Is Job 1 said: Does Dave Matter lack ties to Mizzou? Journal Star > Post Dispatch? LOL It might be harder for the P-D to side skirt this journalistic dilemma because they are probably pulling a lot of MU J-school alums. If you ever read Kirk Wessler of the Peoria Journal Star, it's hard to ignore his massive H/O for Bradley University basketball, but he's the Associate Editor - guy can do what he pleases. We had our mandates and as press mules working the graveyard shift, we just nodded our heads and covered what we were assigned in the budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Bobby Metzinger said: Journal Star > Post Dispatch? LOL Not sure it's hard to be superior to the Post-Dispatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franchise_08 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 If the university was to come down on these players, would they be allowed to practice or attend class? I am not sure they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlarry Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 3 hours ago, For-DaLove said: If your kid ever has doubts about their ability to obtain their dream job, show them one of Hochman's articles. Honestly, it blows my mind that this guy is paid to write. His articles are all over the place and never have structure. His obsessive use of 90's pop culture references drives me nuts. We get it you were a child of the 90's enough with the obscure Fresh Prince or Backstreet boys references. It doesn't make people think you are funny or clever it makes most people role their eyes. As bad as Hochman is I think Ortiz is worse. I think Fredrickson is the best of the bunch for whatever That's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Metzinger Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 19 minutes ago, dlarry said: His obsessive use of 90's pop culture references drives me nuts. We get it you were a child of the 90's enough with the obscure Fresh Prince or Backstreet boys references. It doesn't make people think you are funny or clever it makes most people role their eyes. As bad as Hochman is I think Ortiz is worse. I think Fredrickson is the best of the bunch for whatever That's worth. He makes Chuck Klosterman read like Bill Bryson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Spoon-Balls said: Why hasn't the Post ever hired a real fan of the SLU program to write columns and keep people up to date on the program? Does Stu Durando even get paid for a full time job? I am friends with a sports writer who used to work for the Globe Democrat and now writes for AP. He said you cannot be a fan of the team you cover as you will loose your objectivity. I'm just repeating what he said, you can agree or disagree as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, brianstl said: I don't know what you expect in the form of exoneration from the police. The police never released the names of the players accused and never took them into custody. There is no evidence that there has been any form of criminal investigation in weeks. The police never treated the accused as criminals. Why would the police need to exonerate anyone? The police is in charge of the investigation, the judicial directs the police in regards to whether there is evidence for a case or not and if there is anything else that might bear on it. You, the accused, do not need lawyers if it has been determined there is no case against yourself. Are the player's lawyers still in place and making comments? If they are the investigation is still on and the judicial has not decided whether this is a valid case or not. 1 hour ago, Quality Is Job 1 said: Old Guy, I see no reason that the university would wait for the legal side to complete its investigation if it wants to throw the book at the students for violation of university guidelines. They are two different standards. If they've determined that the students' conduct was in violation of the university's code of conduct and warranted suspension or expulsion, they have no obligation to wait for the district attorney. Whether you or me see things one way or the other, the University decides how to handle their side of this situation. It may make no sense to either one of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLU_Lax Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, Old guy said: You, the accused, do not need lawyers if it has been determined there is no case against yourself. Are the player's lawyers still in place and making comments? If they are the investigation is still on and the judicial has not decided whether this is a valid case or not. The lawyers are there for the University's Title IX investigation. brianstl and 3star_recruit like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenfan05 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, SLU_Lax said: The lawyers are there for the University's Title IX investigation. Also I don’t care if I’m being charged or not if the police want to question me I want my lawyer. brianstl and CBFan like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Just now, Old guy said: The police is in charge of the investigation, the judicial directs the police in regards to whether there is a case or not. You do not need lawyers if it has been determined there is no case against yourself. Are the player's lawyers still in place and making comments? If they are the investigation is still on and the judicial has not decided whether this is a valid case or not. Whether you or me see things one way or the other, the University decides how to handle their side of this situation. It may make no sense to either one of us. The lawyers are in place for the Title IX process. The criminal investigation is going nowhere. Reed, Mitchell, Jordan and Smith were all taken into police custody for questioning within hours after situation 1 was reported to police. If you think there is a criminal investigation to worry about, answer why nothing similar has happened this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Spoon balls I agree. Arguably the two best Cardinal writers in my lifetime were Bob Burnes and Rick Hummel and there was no doubt that they were fans. A professional will be able step back when a prospective is needed and honestly a passion for the home team may actually bring out honest view points that a non-fan wouldn't even care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Spoon-Balls said: Why hasn't the Post ever hired a real fan of the SLU program to write columns and keep people up to date on the program? Does Stu Durando even get paid for a full time job? In part because I consider his wife a friend and because she's a terrific human being, I shall once again stand up against the ridiculous Stu-bashing. (I'd do it for Stu directly, but I can only assess his terrific human beingness by association. Although he has always been very nice to me.) Stu works much more than a full-time job. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, he's doing a very cool long-term research project, which causes some pretty big sacrifices on his part. Making "fan" a job requirement of a beat writer is unethical in the extreme. (I should note that I saw some fabulously unethical things happen at the paper, but in general the grown-ups of my era wouldn't have stooped to this level.) As Metz pointed out, Mi$$ou tends to get its grads covering the program because there are a kazillion Mi$$ou J-school grads. SLU, on the other hand, doesn't even have a J-school. If they had posted Tom T.'s job when he left and required a SLU degree, they could have internally promoted, let's see -- me, Avis and Cleora Hughes, and they could have pushed it by hiring one of the folks who was in night school at SLU Law (Side note: Probably because I don't have one, I've never seen the benefit of a journalism degree, and in fact I think that media outlets being run by journalists has accelerated their decline.) Finally, the main problem with this whole discussion is that no one gives a flying fuok about SLU recruiting, save for people on this board and the occasional AAU coach who might be looking for prey among h.s. underclassmen. billiken_roy, rgbilliken and willie like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, bonwich said: In part because I consider his wife a friend and because she's a terrific human being, I shall once again stand up against the ridiculous Stu-bashing. (I'd do it for Stu directly, but I can only assess his terrific human beingness by association. Although he has always been very nice to me.) Stu works much more than a full-time job. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, he's doing a very cool long-term research project, which causes some pretty big sacrifices on his part. Making "fan" a job requirement of a beat writer is unethical in the extreme. (I should note that I saw some fabulously unethical things happen at the paper, but in general the grown-ups of my era wouldn't have stooped to this level.) As Metz pointed out, Mi$$ou tends to get its grads covering the program because there are a kazillion Mi$$ou J-school grads. SLU, on the other hand, doesn't even have a J-school. If they had posted Tom T.'s job when he left and required a SLU degree, they could have internally promoted, let's see -- me, Avis and Cleora Hughes, and they could have pushed it by hiring one of the folks who was in night school at SLU Law (Side note: Probably because I don't have one, I've never seen the benefit of a journalism degree, and in fact I think that media outlets being run by journalists has accelerated their decline.) Finally, the main problem with this whole discussion is that no one gives a flying fuok about SLU recruiting, save for people on this board and the occasional AAU coach who might be looking for prey among h.s. underclassmen. You make some good points, but you are way off on this last point. If you are a beat writer for a college basketball team, you have to cover recruiting and you have to use social media if you want to be at all relevant. And the counter argument that our program is not Duke, UNC, etc. to warrant that type of coverage does not fly. Beat writers of fellow A-10 programs and many lower than SLU, at least provide recruiting tidbits. I'm not expecting a lot of recruiting feature stories in the paper, just share it on social media when a recruit visits campus, etc. He can even simply retweet other sources who report it. I've been harping on this for a while and gave Stu credit when it appeared he was hearing us. Last year he started tweeting a bit about French and other recruits who would visit campus. Hopefully that will continue and at minimum he can provide basic recruiting info. If he's not writing content of interest to SLU fans, who is he writing it for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 15 minutes ago, bonwich said: In part because I consider his wife a friend and because she's a terrific human being, I shall once again stand up against the ridiculous Stu-bashing. (I'd do it for Stu directly, but I can only assess his terrific human beingness by association. Although he has always been very nice to me.) Stu works much more than a full-time job. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, he's doing a very cool long-term research project, which causes some pretty big sacrifices on his part. Making "fan" a job requirement of a beat writer is unethical in the extreme. (I should note that I saw some fabulously unethical things happen at the paper, but in general the grown-ups of my era wouldn't have stooped to this level.) As Metz pointed out, Mi$$ou tends to get its grads covering the program because there are a kazillion Mi$$ou J-school grads. SLU, on the other hand, doesn't even have a J-school. If they had posted Tom T.'s job when he left and required a SLU degree, they could have internally promoted, let's see -- me, Avis and Cleora Hughes, and they could have pushed it by hiring one of the folks who was in night school at SLU Law (Side note: Probably because I don't have one, I've never seen the benefit of a journalism degree, and in fact I think that media outlets being run by journalists has accelerated their decline.) Finally, the main problem with this whole discussion is that no one gives a flying fuok about SLU recruiting, save for people on this board and the occasional AAU coach who might be looking for prey among h.s. underclassmen. We disagree on Stu's capabilities, but I agree with you on the "fan" requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 minute ago, ACE said: You make some good points, but you are way off on this last point. If you are a beat writer for a college basketball team, you have to cover recruiting and you have to use social media if you want to be at all relevant. And the counter argument that our program is not Duke, UNC, etc. to warrant that type of coverage does not fly. Beat writers of fellow A-10 programs and many lower than SLU, at least provide recruiting tidbits. I'm not expecting a lot of recruiting feature stories in the paper, just share it on social media when a recruit visits campus, etc. He can even simply retweet other sources who report it. I've been harping on this for a while and gave Stu credit when it appeared he was hearing us. Last year he started tweeting a bit about French and other recruits who would visit campus. Hopefully that will continue and at minimum he can provide basic recruiting info. If he's not writing content of interest to SLU fans, who is he writing it for? Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 17 minutes ago, bonwich said: me There is the solution. You need to become the new Billiken beat writer. Why haven't we thought of this earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 If there is no current investigation in process, shouldn't the STL PD inform the press that there was no basis for the accusation and the case has been dropped? Since it was reported in the press the day after the accusation was made, it seems only fair to report that there's no there there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, brianstl said: The lawyers are in place for the Title IX process. The criminal investigation is going nowhere. Cosigned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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