Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[cheeseman]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

then whats the point of a student conduct handbook if it cant be enforced?

Cheating on school work, stealing, assault, drugs are all the kind of things that can be enforced.  What adults agree to do together is not.  At some point we have to understand that we all need to stay out others bedrooms unless a law is broken.

[billiken_roy]

cheating on school work is a crime?

basically the student handbook should say if you commit a crime while on campus you will be penalized.   sure would make things a lot easier to police.  

[DeSmetBilliken]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

then whats the point of a student conduct handbook if it cant be enforced?

It can be enforced, but the idea of laws in general, or a student conduct handbook, is to provide people with a reference of what they can and cannot do. That way they can conform their behavior. If laws or a code of conduct don't provide guidance on an issue, it isn't fair to punish somebody because someone in a position decided after the fact that the behavior should be prohibited.

The reality is that there are catch-all provisions that allow for punishment where specific guidance is lacking, but the principle still exists.

[WestCoastBilliken]

You can say 'we need to stay out of others bedrooms', and I agree it is a dumb rule, but I know for a fact their was language about that in our student handbook when I was there and people have been written up for it in the past. 

Can the school look the other way for these athletes, but not the other regular students? Doubtful.  If all was consensual, does this mean suspension? Doubtful. Probably looking at community service (assuming they have no previous write up history).  If any part was non consensual (sharing the video), is their a suspension of some sort? Probably. 

[brianstl]

So SLU should be kicking out students for premarital sex, gay sex and group sex?  I mean it is a Jesuit University.  I guess feeling up a girl on campus probably should get you banned from on campus housing.

The problem for SLU here is you need to either go all the way in enforcing these types of conduct rules like BYU and Liberty or you open yourself up to all kinds of charges inequitable treatment.  

[cgeldmacher]

The rule used to read that students cannot "cohabitate."  As is the case with most laws, it is written to be intentionally vague.  Back in my day, the 90s, the enforcement was basically a don't ask don't tell situation.  The university knew students had sex.  They had a policy against it.  However, they never enforced the policy unless pushed into doing so.  If a roommate complained, they had to take action.  If you were plowing the girl up against a window of Greis, they had to take action.  If you were caught by someone stumbling out of a girl's room wearing only a comforter, they had to take action.  Unfortunately, this is a situation where they will probably have to take action because of the press that this matter has gotten.

As far as Slufanskip's comment above, this sort of thing puts a Catholic university in a tough spot.  It is a private institution, and even the outstanding lawyers these kids have cannot prevent a Catholic university from enforcing its own private rules.  If the speculation is correct, if heard the supposed scenario many times so I'm basing my comments on it, that the players were engaged in a group sex situation, that alone might trigger them to have to take action.  Forget that it was recorded, that would make it worse.  Forget that a recording my have been shown to others, that would make it even worse.  Forget that the recording may have been sent through social media, that would be even worse.

Think of it this way, if they don't punish the players that were involved, then how do they punish anyone going forward for anything that's done that's less than what these kids did.  It's not the fact that it happened, it's the fact that it went public due to the girls making allegations to the police.  Now the university cannot look the other way like it, arguably, correctly has countless times over the years.

 

[AnkielBreakers]

15 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

The rule used to read that students cannot "cohabitate."  As is the case with most laws, it is written to be intentionally vague.  Back in my day, the 90s, the enforcement was basically a don't ask don't tell situation.  The university knew students had sex.  They had a policy against it.  However, they never enforced the policy unless pushed into doing so.  If a roommate complained, they had to take action.  If you were plowing the girl up against a window of Greis, they had to take action.  If you were caught by someone stumbling out of a girl's room wearing only a comforter, they had to take action.  Unfortunately, this is a situation where they will probably have to take action because of the press that this matter has gotten.

As far as Slufanskip's comment above, this sort of thing puts a Catholic university in a tough spot.  It is a private institution, and even the outstanding lawyers these kids have cannot prevent a Catholic university from enforcing its own private rules.  If the speculation is correct, if heard the supposed scenario many times so I'm basing my comments on it, that the players were engaged in a group sex situation, that alone might trigger them to have to take action.  Forget that it was recorded, that would make it worse.  Forget that a recording my have been shown to others, that would make it even worse.  Forget that the recording may have been sent through social media, that would be even worse.

Think of it this way, if they don't punish the players that were involved, then how do they punish anyone going forward for anything that's done that's less than what these kids did.  It's not the fact that it happened, it's the fact that it went public due to the girls making allegations to the police.  Now the university cannot look the other way like it, arguably, correctly has countless times over the years.

 

This isn't BYU.  I do not have clear evidence that anything like this is against the student handbook.  Also, the school, like any organization, is entitled to be wildly unfair in its rulings.  Stare decisis is not a binding principle in its decisions.  If these were the children of very wealthy donors, any school would secretly take that into consideration.

[slufan13]

They just open themselves up for a bad situation. If you punish the athletes for having consensual sex, you have to punish the women too correct? If you punish the athletes, you have to punish everyone else who does it. If you don't punish the athletes, how can you punish anyone else? 

[billiken_roy]

18 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

They just open themselves up for a bad situation. If you punish the athletes for having consensual sex, you have to punish the women too correct? If you punish the athletes, you have to punish everyone else who does it. If you don't punish the athletes, how can you punish anyone else? 

agree

[slufanskip]

53 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

The rule used to read that students cannot "cohabitate."  As is the case with most laws, it is written to be intentionally vague.  Back in my day, the 90s, the enforcement was basically a don't ask don't tell situation.  The university knew students had sex.  They had a policy against it.  However, they never enforced the policy unless pushed into doing so.  If a roommate complained, they had to take action.  If you were plowing the girl up against a window of Greis, they had to take action.  If you were caught by someone stumbling out of a girl's room wearing only a comforter, they had to take action.  Unfortunately, this is a situation where they will probably have to take action because of the press that this matter has gotten.

As far as Slufanskip's comment above, this sort of thing puts a Catholic university in a tough spot.  It is a private institution, and even the outstanding lawyers these kids have cannot prevent a Catholic university from enforcing its own private rules.  If the speculation is correct, if heard the supposed scenario many times so I'm basing my comments on it, that the players were engaged in a group sex situation, that alone might trigger them to have to take action.  Forget that it was recorded, that would make it worse.  Forget that a recording my have been shown to others, that would make it even worse.  Forget that the recording may have been sent through social media, that would be even worse.

Think of it this way, if they don't punish the players that were involved, then how do they punish anyone going forward for anything that's done that's less than what these kids did.  It's not the fact that it happened, it's the fact that it went public due to the girls making allegations to the police.  Now the university cannot look the other way like it, arguably, correctly has countless times over the years.

 

There's the rub, that it arguably (and in actuality certainly has) and correctly overlooked countless times over the years. Selectively enforcing your rules leaves you wide open for criticism and probably worse. 

[WestCoastBilliken]

It has also been enforced countless times in the past.  I know of 2 instances in my dorm Freshman year.  So how can you enforce is for one group and then decide that you do not want to enforce it for athletes?  And its not like enforcing it means suspension... I forget what it is, but I think it is clearly written out what the punishment entails. 

[Tilkowsky]

https://www.slu.edu/life-at-slu/community-standards/pdfs/17-18student-handbook.pdf

[majerus mojo]

Baby Chaifetz doesn't appear worried about available talent

[TFord and TRavs]

Slu is a Jesuit Catholic school and pretty left in administration since Biondi left. 

Dont expect any harsh penalties based on “SLU’s Catholic values” 

[WestCoastBilliken]

IF the rumors are true that a video was made and shown to people, 2.7.27 Sexual exploitation, would be one of the disciplinary items per the handbook posted above. 

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

cheating on school work is a crime?

basically the student handbook should say if you commit a crime while on campus you will be penalized.   sure would make things a lot easier to police.  

Don't be silly.  Cheating will get you kicked out anywhere. The police could care less about what the handbook says.  They do their thing irrespective.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, WestCoastBilliken said:

You can say 'we need to stay out of others bedrooms', and I agree it is a dumb rule, but I know for a fact their was language about that in our student handbook when I was there and people have been written up for it in the past. 

Can the school look the other way for these athletes, but not the other regular students? Doubtful.  If all was consensual, does this mean suspension? Doubtful. Probably looking at community service (assuming they have no previous write up history).  If any part was non consensual (sharing the video), is their a suspension of some sort? Probably. 

You and I were in school some time ago - things have changed.  I do agree with your second paragraph except that the sharing would result in a suspension.  We need to know how it was shared and by who.  What if the person who shared it was not a student at SLU? - I think one of the girls supposedly was not a SLU student from what some posted.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, brianstl said:

So SLU should be kicking out students for premarital sex, gay sex and group sex?  I mean it is a Jesuit University.  I guess feeling up a girl on campus probably should get you banned from on campus housing.

The problem for SLU here is you need to either go all the way in enforcing these types of conduct rules like BYU and Liberty or you open yourself up to all kinds of charges inequitable treatment.  

Exactly and that is why I have said don't start something you can not finish.  I would however disagree with you that we are a Jesuit University.  When Biondi filed for the TIF money he claimed that the school was not owned by the Jesuits or any Catholic entity and had a lay board so we were eligible for the money when building the arena.  It was challenged and the MO Supreme Court agreed with him and we got the money.  So, you can not have it both ways.  He may have also used the sale of the hospital as an example of the school not being a religious entity in the case.

[hoppybeer]

They have definitely left their sexual assault policy wide open.

 

“Sexual assault” is a form of harassment. “Sexual assault” refers to engaging in any form of sexual contact or conduct with another without that person’s clear, knowing, and voluntary consent. Sexual assault refers to any sexual contact without consent and includes intentional touching, either of the victim or when the victim is forced to touch, directly or through clothing, another person’s genitals, breasts, things, or buttocks.

 

I think we need an in-depth discussion on what exactly "things" means.

[Box and Won]

I once grabbed a girl's things. I consider myself lucky to have been allowed to stay in school.

EDIT: So you don't think I am some kind of animal, it was really more of a gentle, loving caress of her things.

[cheeseman]

Stop it you two - I laughing to hard.

[hoppybeer]

I sat on my things once in college, and I find that I'm doing it more often as I get older. I think the mere act of sitting on them was punishment enough though.

[slu72]

8 minutes ago, hoppybeer said:

I sat on my things once in college, and I find that I'm doing it more often as I get older. I think the mere act of sitting on them was punishment enough though.

I feel your pain. Seems to hurt more when you're wearing jeans. And I'm talking mom jeans.

[JMM28]

41 minutes ago, TFord and TRavs said:

Slu is a Jesuit Catholic school and pretty left in administration since Biondi left. 

Dont expect any harsh penalties based on “SLU’s Catholic values” 

SLU is an institution governed by a lay board who hired a lay president. They’re not catholic at all I swear! 

A girl grabbed my things by the piano at Humphreys one time and shortly thereafter I was in her Village sex dungeon. Luckily she got to stay in school too. 

[Box and Won]

2 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

SLU is an institution governed by a lay board who hired a lay president. They’re not catholic at all I swear! 

A girl grabbed my things by the piano at Humphreys one time and shortly thereafter I was in her Village sex dungeon. Luckily she got to stay in school too. 

You were smart to put the lotion in the basket.