Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, brianstl said:

 

The super SJW people you are trying to please are going to be just as angry at the school as they would have been if no suspension occurred.  They will label the whole process as a cover-up to protect "privileged athletes".  They don't care about the facts of the case.  Nothing less than the heads of the three on a platter would make them happy. 

SJW will be angry at the outcome regardless of which way. 

[brianstl]

14 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

I think the idea that SLU is waiting for Thanksgiving break to close the book on this matter does make sense.  If they were going to hand down a significant penalty they would not be concerned with the timing.  As far as the 3 players suffering given that it is possible that they really did nothing wrong per se is a bit much - you are responsible for your actions.  If you get involved in something that has questionable aspects to it then you better expect to be soiled in some respect.  Someone earlier said that the fact that the 2 who could travel per NCAA rules went to NY was right - it speaks volumes about where this may be heading.  Should the transfer sitting out this semester be expected to sit some games in the second semester since he did not miss any games this semester - no.  In life timing is everything - the 2 who have sat out simply are the victims of the investigation and how it has to play out.  The other player is not the victim in the same way but sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.  From the beginning I warned that the school better be careful for several reasons - do you really want to legislate what people do in their bedroom that is not illegal? and they better make sure that this kind of behavior (consensual) has not been overlooked by the school or school reps such as RAs in the past.  I can assure you that  sex between two students was taking place in Greisedick Hall  when I was a student from 1969-73.  I never saw or heard of anyone being disciplined.  I also know that it took place in the coed dorm at the same time and horrors of horrors I know for a fact that you could sneak in to Rogers - all girls dorm - and take care of business.  This is 2017 not 1950 when girls had to be escorted in the evening by another female.

That the players are practicing/traveling with the team should tell anyone looking at the case that the school has confidently reached the conclusion that no sexual assault happened.  It means they have had enough information in their hands weeks ago to reach that conclusion.  That makes what is happening even worse.

[Billiken Rich]

4 minutes ago, wgstl said:

SJW will be angry at the outcome regardless of which way. 

This is true but there was no way a nominally Catholic University can get away with less than they are doing.  This is not being done to please the social justice warriors.  In my opinion, it is being done to keep up a good impression on Becky Blahblah's mom in Sioux Falls who's daughter would like to attend SLU....

[slufan13]

8 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

This is true but there was no way a nominally Catholic University can get away with less than they are doing.  This is not being done to please the social justice warriors.  In my opinion, it is being done to keep up a good impression on Becky Blahblah's mom in Sioux Falls who's daughter would like to attend SLU....

But the players are still students at the school and will likely be able to play within a month. Why would that change Beckys mom's opinion?

[ACE]

15 hours ago, TFord and TRavs said:

Got word from my sources I still have. The boys are good to go. Just waiting on slu to draw it out more. They should be cleared. 

Do your "sources" have a date they will be cleared? If not, than these sources are worthless.

[Old guy]

Brianstl you are, from my point of view, entirely correct as to what the aims and needs of the University are in regards to this investigation. I also tend to think that whatever the end result of the process is, it will lead a certain percentage of the people to anger against ______ (fill the blank). This is why the University cannot give the appearance of acting in the best interest of the players or the accusers, but must take a position of having made a fair decision to all parties involved. This is a very complex situation, and on top it all of that hangs the possible penalty, if the situation is not handled strictly according to regs, of losing Federal funding. 

Given these factors I think the idea of making an announcement of any kind before all possible angles are totally covered is probably incorrect. True there does not seem to be a criminal issue involved in this case, they are not guilty of having infringed any law, but that is not the only thing they are supposed to deal within the context of title IX or the context of the University's code of conduct, or even the current frantic state of constant revelations of improper sexual advances going everywhere. This is not an easy situation to deal with anyway you look at it. 

Personally I would hope there is a favorable outcome for the players, I just do not think the University has had the necessary time to go over all the requirements of title IX yet, and they have not had the chance to fully evaluate the possible consequences to the University when they decide to go in a particular way vs going in a different way. Some things cannot be hurried, and I think this is one of them. I do not see any announcements coming out Thanksgiving (just because this would be a favorable time to do it from the point of view of the players). There is just too much hanging on the balance for the University to hurry up with a decision in this case. I think that the fate of this year's basketball team is not the most important or even one of the main considerations that the University will use to decide what they are ultimately going to do about this. In my opinion, it will take a significant amount of time to reach closure in this situation. 

[brianstl]

18 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

This is true but there was no way a nominally Catholic University can get away with less than they are doing.  This is not being done to please the social justice warriors.  In my opinion, it is being done to keep up a good impression on Becky Blahblah's mom in Sioux Falls who's daughter would like to attend SLU....

If there wasn't a false sexual assault allegation involved, I would agree.  The seriousness of the charge means you have to provide extra protection to the identities of those accused.  This case is so weak that the police have not only not pursued the case, they never even took the accused into custody for questioning like they did in Situation 1.  The STLMPD and the prosecutor's office have acted in ways to protect the identities of those falsely accused in this case.  The only institution that has took an action to connect these three with false allegations of sexual assault is SLU.  SLU allowing the players to practice and travel shows SLU has enough information to confidently determine the allegations are false.  SLU should be striving to protect these three from false allegations.

[Billiken Rich]

5 minutes ago, brianstl said:

If there wasn't a false sexual assault allegation involved, I would agree.  The seriousness of the charge means you have to provide extra protection to the identities of those accused.  This case is so weak that the police have not only not pursued the case, they never even took the accused into custody for questioning like they did in Situation 1.  The STLMPD and the prosecutor's office have acted in ways to protect the identities of those falsely accused in this case.  The only institution that has took an action to connect these three with false allegations of sexual assault is SLU.  SLU allowing the players to practice and travel shows SLU has enough information to confidently determine the allegations are false.  SLU should be striving to protect these three from false allegations.

The Police and the University are two different organizations with two vastly different standards.  I and we for the most part have little idea as to the real details of these events.  The police not charging someone of sexual assault doesn't mean it did not occur, it just means there isn't anyway to prove that it did.  SLU can pop these guys easily for violating their rules of conduct.  To this point I cannot fault SLU for it's handling of this case, no matter how much I want these guys on the court.  Hopefully they will be reinstated soon.

[RUBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The super SJW people you are trying to please are going to be just as angry at the school as they would have been if no suspension occurred.  They will label the whole process as a cover-up to protect "privileged athletes".  They don't care about the facts of the case.  Nothing less than the heads of the three on a platter would make them happy. 

Just to further the point.  I've already seen some super SJW people on twitter calling it a cover up.  If you were on twitter during and after the 1st regular season game, there was a firestorm of replies to every SLU tweet from an account that appeared to have been set up just to rant about a "cover up".  The account and replies were gone within a few hours of the game ending.  I had reported the account to Twitter for violating the terms of service.  I'm not sure if that's why it was taken down, but I'll be pretty vigilant about reporting such super SJW accounts to twitter if I see them pop up.

I mean for Christsakes the players in question seem to be suspended and a Title IX investigation is underway.  The University really can't do anything else besides that (until the investigation is complete) unless they want to get sued for not following the proper procedure.

[RiseAndGrind]

So ... still no decision ?

[Pistol]

A lot of posters are overreacting to a very, very small number of people on Twitter. I wouldn't worry about them. There are people arguing on Twitter about literally everything at all times. This particular group being complained about is tiny and has no say in this particular matter. Just ignore them and let the case play out.

Also, for what it's worth, social justice is a fundamental tenet of Jesuit teaching - and Catholicism as a whole, for that matter. I know that the terms "social justice" and "social justice warrior" have become political euphemisms in recent years, but bear in mind that social justice on a basic level is supposed to factor into everything the University does.

[brianstl]

 

1 hour ago, Billiken Rich said:

The Police and the University are two different organizations with two vastly different standards.  I and we for the most part have little idea as to the real details of these events.  The police not charging someone of sexual assault doesn't mean it did not occur, it just means there isn't anyway to prove that it did.  SLU can pop these guys easily for violating their rules of conduct.  To this point I cannot fault SLU for it's handling of this case, no matter how much I want these guys on the court.  Hopefully they will be reinstated soon.

The STLMPD and the prosecutor's office determined the case was such BS they didn't even take the players into custody for questioning.  That is not deciding there isn't enough evidence to prosecute.  That is a determination that there isn't even a reason to waste resources investigating the case.

[MusicCityBilliken]

12 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

So ... still no decision ?

According to ESPN announcement during the Providence game, the TitleIX report can be submitted no earlier them 11/24-Friday. 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

4 minutes ago, tarheelbilliken said:

According to ESPN announcement during the Providence game, the TitleIX report can be submitted no earlier them 11/24-Friday. 

you mean no later than 11/24? Looking forward to the Butler game when all of our players will be dressed!

[Macallan 18]

Here is my prediction.  The players involved will be cleared soon.  Possibly today or tomorrow.  A statement will be issued saying the matter has been handled internally and the players eligible to play now can begin playing.  Essentially suspended for the number of games they missed between the start of the season and the announcement, "time served."  The player who is not eligible to play this semester will sit-out the same amount of games once he becomes eligible.  So if this announcement happens today or tomorrow and the eligible two play tomorrow night we are talking about a four game suspension.  

[MusicCityBilliken]

5 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

you mean no later than 11/24? Looking forward to the Butler game when all of our players will be dressed!

My understanding is that the 24th is the 60th day since the Title IX investigation started and that is the minimum time stipulated for an investigation. Anyway, my feelings is that findings will be submitted Friday. Whether that's made public, anyone's guess. 

[Bills_06]

2 minutes ago, tarheelbilliken said:

My understanding is that the 24th is the 60th day since the Title IX investigation started and that is the minimum time stipulated for an investigation. Anyway, my feelings is that findings will be submitted Friday. Whether that's made public, anyone's guess. 

It's a maximum of 60 days from receipt of the report for a title IX investigation from the stltoday articles. 

[DeSmetBilliken]

16 minutes ago, Bills_06 said:

It's a maximum of 60 days from receipt of the report for a title IX investigation from the stltoday articles. 

This is also how I understood things.

[Billiken Rich]

47 minutes ago, brianstl said:

 

The STLMPD and the prosecutor's office determined the case was such BS they didn't even take the players into custody for questioning.  That is not deciding there isn't enough evidence to prosecute.  That is determination that there isn't even a reason to waste resources investigating the case.

That still doesn't mean nothing happened and it still doesn't mean SLU's rules weren't violated.  Nobody's been questioned by police in Hollywood and people are being fired and suspended by companies left and right.  I don't like the players getting suspended but in my opinion SLU has done what it had to and should do here.      

[cheeseman]

2 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

That still doesn't mean nothing happened and it still doesn't mean SLU's rules weren't violated.  Nobody's been questioned by police in Hollywood and people are being fired and suspended by companies left and right.  I don't like the players getting suspended but in my opinion SLU has done what it had to and should do here.      

In order for the police to investigate there has to be a complaint filed - I am not sure in Hollywood anybody has actually gone to the police and filed a formal complaint.  From what we know the girls did file a formal complaint thus requiring the police to investigate to some degree.

[slu06]

59 minutes ago, Pistol said:

A lot of posters are overreacting to a very, very small number of people on Twitter. I wouldn't worry about them. There are people arguing on Twitter about literally everything at all times. This particular group being complained about is tiny and has no say in this particular matter. Just ignore them and let the case play out.

Also, for what it's worth, social justice is a fundamental tenet of Jesuit teaching - and Catholicism as a whole, for that matter. I know that the terms "social justice" and "social justice warrior" have become political euphemisms in recent years, but bear in mind that social justice on a basic level is supposed to factor into everything the University does.

Quit being so rational, please (sarcasm: I agree with this post 100%).

[Billiken Rich]

2 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

In order for the police to investigate there has to be a complaint filed - I am not sure in Hollywood anybody has actually gone to the police and filed a formal complaint.  

 

There have been a couple actually.....

[Slu let the dogs out?]

1 hour ago, tarheelbilliken said:

My understanding is that the 24th is the 60th day since the Title IX investigation started and that is the minimum time stipulated for an investigation. Anyway, my feelings is that findings will be submitted Friday. Whether that's made public, anyone's guess. 

Got it. For some reason I was under the impression that any investigation had to conclude within the 60 day window but that wouldn't make much sense.

[Cowboy]

 

-I find it hard to believe the U will make a statement on a day it is not in session, but this whole ordeal is hard to believe

[slufan13]

So every time there are allegations against an athlete, they should be suspended? I know nobody is talking in that much of an extreme, but I think you have to base punishments on the facts that you have rather than trying to avoid pissing off certain people (and that includes big athletic boosters and fans). I didn't agree with the mentality, but I was fine with keeping the players out until the investigation is over. If the investigation is truly over and the evidence points towards the players being exonerated, I think you have to let them play immediately.