OT: Finally Some Good STL News

[Old guy]

Does anyone know the name of the lead prosecutor in this case? He was frankly incompetent in his presentation of the case to the court. You do not argue with the witnesses and do not present false facts as truth, like the fifth shot, in trial. 

 

[Spoon-Balls]

9 hours ago, HoosierBilliken said:

Although I disagree with your contention that there was a problem with the Supreme Court rulings, you hit the nail on the head as far as this is the issue.  If people don't like the rules, change the law.  Everything else (riots, demonstrations) are a waste of time.

Consider this: the problem may be police vs. criminals that resist arrest (black, white, Hispanic, etc.).  This is not a racial issue.  Almost every situation you can cite is a criminal resisting the police.  Bad things happen, including mistakes, when people resist the police.  By law, the police can use force to arrest.  So, you, as a criminal resisting arrest, are relying on a human being to determine in a split second what level of force to use on you.  I suggest not putting yourself in that position.   

You should read Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Blink." Then you'll understand why it absolutely is a racial issue simply because of how our brains function in situations of extreme duress. People don't like to admit it but all of the latest psychological research shows that we humans are extremely biased creatures. That affects our split second decision making and judgements about other people, especially in high stress environments. The chapter in the book about 4 cops in New York back in the 90's who end up killing an unarmed black man is very striking, just because of all the wrong split second assumptions they made about the man... When the situation precipitated, the cops were so amped up on adrenaline that when the guy reached into his pocket to pull out a wallet they shot him over 30 times. 

 

Whatever actually happened with this case, there's something to be said about the need to provide more counseling to police officers so that they won't precipitate situations needlessly. Many cops in St. Louis have suffered from toxic stress for a while and there's a lot to suggest that their split second decision making might be significantly affected by that. 

[WUH]

The Implicit Association Test and the notion of implicit bias that Malcolm Gladwell discusses may not be as it seems.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html

In this case, the officers would have know the race of the victim for nearly three minutes before the officer pulled the trigger.

Racism is still obviously a big problem.

 

[Tilkowsky]

There is a simple reason African Americans get shot by police more often - they commit more crimes than any other race even though they are only 15 percent of the population.

More whites get shot by police than African Americans.

Why do African Americans commit more crimes - they have a 75 percent out of wedlock birth rate.

Until the subjects of African Americans committing more crimes than other races and the out of wedlock birthrate are taken up - the status quo will remain.

The fixes can only come from the African American community, only after some introspection though.

Which appears to be lacking.

 

[DeSmetBilliken]

1 hour ago, Old guy said:

Does anyone know the name of the lead prosecutor in this case? He was frankly incompetent in his presentation of the case to the court. You do not argue with the witnesses and do not present false facts as truth, like the fifth shot, in trial. 

 

I don't think I would describe the prosecutor as "incompetent". Remember, it was several years before formal charges were brought in this case. Some might say that was due to some systemic biases or issues, but I think it was more likely due to a recognition that this case had some holes in it. In a less high profile situation, charges may never have been filed. Here, the decision was made to pursue those charges. When you do that, you have to present what you believe is your best case. Unfortunately for the prosecutor, Stockley had an outstanding attorney who was able to poke enough holes in that case to amount to reasonable doubt in the eyes of the judge.

[cheeseman]

23 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

There is a simple reason African Americans get shot by police more often - they commit more crimes than any other race even though they are only 15 percent of the population.

More whites get shot by police than African Americans.

Why do African Americans commit more crimes - they have a 75 percent out of wedlock birth rate.

Until the subjects of African Americans committing more crimes than other races and the out of wedlock birthrate are taken up - the status quo will remain.

The fixes can only come from the African American community, only after some introspection though.

Which appears to be lacking.

 

I don't even know where to start with this post.  So, I won't even try - you would have no ability to have a reasonable discussion on this topic.  Never mind that criminality is an out growth of poverty regardless of race- chew on that for awhile maybe you will get a clue.

[cheeseman]

8 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I don't think I would describe the prosecutor as "incompetent". Remember, it was several years before formal charges were brought in this case. Some might say that was due to some systemic biases or issues, but I think it was more likely due to a recognition that this case had some holes in it. In a less high profile situation, charges may never have been filed. Here, the decision was made to pursue those charges. When you do that, you have to present what you believe is your best case. Unfortunately for the prosecutor, Stockley had an outstanding attorney who was able to poke enough holes in that case to amount to reasonable doubt in the eyes of the judge.

Having know the defendant's lawyer personally, I can assure you that while he may be an outstanding attorney the prosecutor did not present a strong case or else holes could not have been so easily poked.  I would also venture that the judge was predispose to the police given the law that is place - why do you think they asked for a judge trial not a jury.

[Old guy]

 

9 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I don't think I would describe the prosecutor as "incompetent". Remember, it was several years before formal charges were brought in this case. Some might say that was due to some systemic biases or issues, but I think it was more likely due to a recognition that this case had some holes in it. In a less high profile situation, charges may never have been filed. Here, the decision was made to pursue those charges. When you do that, you have to present what you believe is your best case. Unfortunately for the prosecutor, Stockley had an outstanding attorney who was able to poke enough holes in that case to amount to reasonable doubt in the eyes of the judge.

Agree the case had holes. However the issue of incompetence is real in this case: 1. You do not contest the facts that your own primary witness is testifying.  2. You do not make your arguments based upon facts that are contradicted by your own witnesses testimony.  3. You have the intelligence, which appears lacking in this prosecutor, to stay away from politically charged cases that you cannot or are likely not to win. Competent people choose their battles, this guy has shown he is not capable of doing so. I totally disagree that all high profile cases should be brought to trial. If the aim of the prosecutor is to bring change to the way things are by bringing a high profile case to trial, then he MUST know or be fairly certain he will win the case. You cannot bring change by losing your cases, he should know that is the way things are. I would like to know his name so that we can vote for someone else in any future elections for office.

Cheeseman's posts make absolute sense to me, as they should have made to him. 

[STL Hoops Insider]

3 hours ago, HoosierBilliken said:

I completely agree with you that it seems that way, but only due to the media coverage.  The facts say differently. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/no-racial-bias-police-shootings-study-harvard-prof/

Black people aren't the only ones that have had problems with police.  Officers can be mean, but maybe it comes from being spit on, shot at, dealing with criminals every day, handling stressful situations, being asked to do the impossible, and then being unappreciated for it.  They are not robots.  There is a human being behind that badge and gun that has the ability to to become angry and make mistakes in using their power.  I try to be respectful and understanding of their position.     

I agree and with officers being human they can be wrong and make mistakes or be evil like anyone else, but when a video shows a suspect doing wrong they always says that's all the proof that is needed but when we see video of an officer, they tell us not to rush to judgement and that they will be conducting their own investigation and the guy is on desk duty or suspended with pay.

[STL Hoops Insider]

52 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

There is a simple reason African Americans get shot by police more often - they commit more crimes than any other race even though they are only 15 percent of the population.

More whites get shot by police than African Americans.

Why do African Americans commit more crimes - they have a 75 percent out of wedlock birth rate.

Until the subjects of African Americans committing more crimes than other races and the out of wedlock birthrate are taken up - the status quo will remain.

The fixes can only come from the African American community, only after some introspection though.

Which appears to be lacking.

 

Blacks get "caught committing more crimes than any other race because they are being monitored a policed more than any other race. If you are looking for the worst in people you will find it. There is a disconnect. Most black communities are not policed by black officers and situations are escalated to violence that never have to get to that level. To serve and protect. You're not protecting me when you choke Eric Garner over lose cigarettes or shoot Philando Castille over a tail light. Just give them a warning and move on. It's not thst serious. Police Depts have been using traffic violations for tremendous sources of revenue for years. The police towing scandal under Joe Mokwa.

[Tilkowsky]

27 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

I don't even know where to start with this post.  So, I won't even try - you would have no ability to have a reasonable discussion on this topic.  Never mind that criminality is an out growth of poverty regardless of race- chew on that for awhile maybe you will get a clue.

Thanks for proving my point. I would bet that having kids out of wedlock leads to poverty. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Agreed. The out of wedlock rate for whites is creeping up as well.

Again, more whites get shot by police than African Americans. Yet whites don't riot. Why is that?

Even Martin Luther King Jr. was alarmed by the criminality of African Americans back in the 1960's. He gave a speech and was alarmed at the high rate of criminality among African Americans versus their place in terms percentage of population.

The speech was actually in Saint Louis.

Like mist liberals you are arguing emotion, not facts.

[Tilkowsky]

8 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

Blacks get "caught committing more crimes than any other race because they are being monitored a policed more than any other race. If you are looking for the worst in people you will find it. There is a disconnect. Most black communities are not policed by black officers and situations are escalated to violence that never have to get to that level. To serve and protect. You're not protecting me when you choke Eric Garner over lose cigarettes or shoot Philando Castille over a tail light. Just give them a warning and move on. It's not thst serious. Police Depts have been using traffic violations for tremendous sources of revenue for years. The police towing scandal under Joe Mokwa.

First off the Eric Garner incident was instituted by Liberal Democrats. Why do you have such a high tax on cigarettes and  bring about a black market for cigarettes?

The other thing is if you are being arrested - comply with lawful police commands.

Had Eric Garner not fought back - he would be alive today.

If Michael Brown had listened to Darren Wilson - he would be alive today.

If Lamar Smith had pulled over and not driven through the streets at 90 MPH - he would  be alive today.

Lose the attitude. If you commit a crime, obey the lawful commands of police officers and you will live.

If you are not guilty - you will be exonerated.

[STL Hoops Insider]

16 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Thanks for proving my point. I would bet that having kids out of wedlock leads to poverty. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Agreed. The out of wedlock rate for whites is creeping up as well.

Again, more whites get shot by police than African Americans. Yet whites don't riot. Why is that?

Even Martin Luther King Jr. was alarmed by the criminality of African Americans back in the 1960's. He gave a speech and was alarmed at the high rate of criminality among African Americans versus their place in terms percentage of population.

The speech was actually in Saint Louis.

Like mist liberals you are arguing emotion, not facts.

More unarmed whites are shot?  Are the officers in those cases charged more or less? Convicted more or less?

[cheeseman]

16 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Thanks for proving my point. I would bet that having kids out of wedlock leads to poverty. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Agreed. The out of wedlock rate for whites is creeping up as well.

Again, more whites get shot by police than African Americans. Yet whites don't riot. Why is that?

Even Martin Luther King Jr. was alarmed by the criminality of African Americans back in the 1960's. He gave a speech and was alarmed at the high rate of criminality among African Americans versus their place in terms percentage of population.

The speech was actually in Saint Louis.

Like mist liberals you are arguing emotion, not facts.

No I am not arguing emotions.  I did not agree or prove your point.  The mistake I made was assuming you knew something like a higher % minority live in poverty - not higher #.  There are more whites collecting welfare of some type but the % of the total white population is lower.  This not an either or issue - of course more whites can be shot by police then blacks but the % of their population is higher.

[STL Hoops Insider]

10 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

First off the Eric Garner incident was instituted by Liberal Democrats. Why do you have such a high tax on cigarettes and  bring about a black market for cigarettes?

The other thing is if you are being arrested - comply with lawful police commands.

Had Eric Garner not fought back - he would be alive today.

If Michael Brown had listened to Darren Wilson - he would be alive today.

If Lamar Smith had pulled over and not driven through the streets at 90 MPH - he would  be alive today.

Lose the attitude. If you commit a crime, obey the lawful commands of police officers and you will live.

If you are not guilty - you will be exonerated.

Non-compliance is not a license to kill. 

[STL Hoops Insider]

I am glad this discussion has remained civil and no one lost their head. Lots of respect to many of you. 

[Tilkowsky]

5 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

Non-compliance is not a license to kill. 

Agreed. However law enforcement's first duty when he/she starts a shift is to go home alive.

Even the Supreme Court has given law enforcement a WIDE latitude in the use of deadly force.

Their reasoning? They said that who are they to decide when and how much deadly force law enforcement gets to use. The Supremes said that they don't put their lives on the line every day like law enforcement.

I am assuming you don't either.

[Tilkowsky]

12 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

No I am not arguing emotions.  I did not agree or prove your point.  The mistake I made was assuming you knew something like a higher % minority live in poverty - not higher #.  There are more whites collecting welfare of some type but the % of the total white population is lower.  This not an either or issue - of course more whites can be shot by police then blacks but the % of their population is higher.

Again, having 75 percent of their births out of wedlock I am sure is not a recipe for financial success.

Even Martin Luther King Jr. as I said sounded the alarm bells. The African American community didn't heed the call.

 

[STL Hoops Insider]

1 minute ago, Tilkowsky said:

Agreed. However law enforcement's first duty when he/she starts a shift is to go home alive.

Even the Supreme Court has given law enforcement a WIDE latitude in the use of deadly force.

Their reasoning? They said that who are they to decide when and how much deadly force law enforcement gets to use. The Supremes said that they don't put their lives on the line every day like law enforcement.

I am assuming you don't either.

Creating conflict where there is none and the claiming self-defense is wrong. If you are that scared for your life, why intervene for harmless situations? So many needless traffic stops have gone horribly wrong. I get pulled over constantly. It's an awful feeling, fearing for life, daily!!!! I shouldn't be used to it.

[STL Hoops Insider]

https://www.si.com/vault/2000/07/10/8116851/shot-through-the-heart-the-hoop-dreams-of-four-young-men-were-shatteredand-the-issue-of-racial-profiling-was-brought-into-sharp-focuswhen-new-jersey-troopers-stopped-their-van-and-opened-fire

[Tilkowsky]

28 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

Creating conflict where there is none and the claiming self-defense is wrong. If you are that scared for your life, why intervene for harmless situations? So many needless traffic stops have gone horribly wrong. I get pulled over constantly. It's an awful feeling, fearing for life, daily!!!! I shouldn't be used to it.

Why do you get pulled over constantly?

What about the two cops who were shot in the Bronx last December sitting in their car minding their own business.

In terms of African Americans not being police - that is on the African American community. Rap and hip hop music vilify police. Places like Feeguson have a hard time keeping African American police because they go to forces like the County to make more money.

Again, you have to have a high school diploma to be a police officer. That disqualifies some of the African American population.

If you get pulled over constantly then I would recommend documenting each time with address where it occurred, time of day, officer name and badge number. Then after a trend forms. Take it to an attorney.

[Tilkowsky]

15 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

https://www.si.com/vault/2000/07/10/8116851/shot-through-the-heart-the-hoop-dreams-of-four-young-men-were-shatteredand-the-issue-of-racial-profiling-was-brought-into-sharp-focuswhen-new-jersey-troopers-stopped-their-van-and-opened-fire

What happened to the troopers?

Really tough situation.

I can't imagine pulling a car over and then walking up wondering if someone had a gun.

[DeSmetBilliken]

1 hour ago, Old guy said:

 

Agree the case had holes. However the issue of incompetence is real in this case: 1. You do not contest the facts that your own primary witness is testifying.  2. You do not make your arguments based upon facts that are contradicted by your own witnesses testimony.  3. You have the intelligence, which appears lacking in this prosecutor, to stay away from politically charged cases that you cannot or are likely not to win. Competent people choose their battles, this guy has shown he is not capable of doing so. I totally disagree that all high profile cases should be brought to trial. If the aim of the prosecutor is to bring change to the way things are by bringing a high profile case to trial, then he MUST know or be fairly certain he will win the case. You cannot bring change by losing your cases, he should know that is the way things are. I would like to know his name so that we can vote for someone else in any future elections for office.

Cheeseman's posts make absolute sense to me, as they should have made to him. 

I agree with your general comments on sound trial strategy. With that noted, there are a few issues with your comments:

First, the current Circuit Attorney for the City of St. Louis (aka the head prosecutor for the city), and her predecessor, are both women. Second, unless this case was a complete anamoly, the Circuit Attorney herself did not actually try the case. The Circuit Attorney never tries cases. Bob McCullough in the County doesn't try cases either. Cases are tried by a fleet of Assistant Circuit/Prosecuting Attorneys. Decisions on trial strategy would have likely been made by the attorneys actually trying the case.

If I remember correctly, the decision to pursue charges in this case was made by the former Circuit Attorney.

Maybe I'm mistaking what you're trying to say, but it appears that you're suggesting that the prosecutor contested their own witness. The places where the witness contradicted their own testimony came when Stockley's attorney got to cross-examine them. Even the best witnesses are probably going to have some hole that can be poked in their testimony. 

The bottom line is that the prosecutor(s) trying the case had to make what they believed was the best case they could make given the facts they had. I have no idea if another strategy would have been any better, but sometimes you have to go with what you think is best, and hope that it's enough to persuade a judge or jury.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

45 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

The Circuit Attorney never tries cases. Bob McCullough in the County doesn't try cases either.

The CA does and he does.

[DeSmetBilliken]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

The CA does and he does.

Ok. I stand corrected.