SLU Soccer 2017

[William Iken]

It's sometimes said that private schools will struggle in soccer (and other non-full scholarship sports) since only a few players will be on full scholarships and the majority on partial or no scholarships - hence, paying the remainder of private school fees as opposed to lower public school rates. I have not been convinced of this, and know in the past schools (public and private) get around the scholarship limit by providing academic grants and scholarships. But I want to raise this again and ask if those with closer (more recent) connections think this argument has some validity - there does seem to be an inordinately high percentage of public schools in the tourney every year. Thoughts?

[WUH]

50 minutes ago, William Iken said:

It's sometimes said that private schools will struggle in soccer (and other non-full scholarship sports) since only a few players will be on full scholarships and the majority on partial or no scholarships - hence, paying the remainder of private school fees as opposed to lower public school rates. I have not been convinced of this, and know in the past schools (public and private) get around the scholarship limit by providing academic grants and scholarships. But I want to raise this again and ask if those with closer (more recent) connections think this argument has some validity - there does seem to be an inordinately high percentage of public schools in the tourney every year. Thoughts?

The answer varies from school to school.

A few thoughts:

The last two times SLU made a deep run in the tourney, tuition was around $21-22K per year (non including financial aid).  Tuition is $45K today though the discount is greater. 

Tuition at the University of Virginia is $15K.  This is true for both in-state and out.  Akron is $11K and 15K.  Other schools double the tuition for out of state folks.  $30K at Indiana is still way cheaper.  Obviously, this does not reflect the net price that a particular student may pay.

Tuition at Duke, Notre Dame and Stanford is even more, but they have a different student profile.

You cannot give away scholarships and grants to people who are not demonstrably eligible just to get around the scholarship issue.  SLU used to have a financial aid director who would do things most schools will not, but eventually it was discovered and SLU had to pay back millions.  They got off easy.  The new Director runs a much tighter ship.

[Tilkowsky]

McGinty should have been fired five years ago.

The City IS a scary place.

It has more to do with Power 5 conferences than private versus public. Look at the schools who have won the NCAA Division I tournament.

Only three mid- majors have won in the last thirty years. Akron, UCSB, Santa Clara.

Doesnt bode well for SLU.

[TFord and TRavs]

1 hour ago, Tilkowsky said:

McGinty should have been fired five years ago.

The City IS a scary place.

It has more to do with Power 5 conferences than private versus public. Look at the schools who have won the NCAA Division I tournament.

Only three mid- majors have won in the last thirty years. Akron, UCSB, Santa Clara.

Doesnt bode well for SLU.

BIGEAST

[Tilkowsky]

On November 11, 2017 at 9:46 AM, TFord and TRavs said:

BIGEAST

The latest I have seen on the Big East is that UCONN wants to go back.

I would think the Big East would take UCONN back before admitting SLU.

 

 

 

[prebilliken]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:51 PM, WUH said:

The answer varies from school to school.

A few thoughts:

The last two times SLU made a deep run in the tourney, tuition was around $21-22K per year (non including financial aid).  Tuition is $45K today though the discount is greater. 

Tuition at the University of Virginia is $15K.  This is true for both in-state and out.  Akron is $11K and 15K.  Other schools double the tuition for out of state folks.  $30K at Indiana is still way cheaper.  Obviously, this does not reflect the net price that a particular student may pay.

Tuition at Duke, Notre Dame and Stanford is even more, but they have a different student profile.

You cannot give away scholarships and grants to people who are not demonstrably eligible just to get around the scholarship issue.  SLU used to have a financial aid director who would do things most schools will not, but eventually it was discovered and SLU had to pay back millions.  They got off easy.  The new Director runs a much tighter ship.

My sister went to UVA as an out of state student and there was 0.00% chance that tuition was $15K. I believe as an out of state student she payed more for UVA than I did for SLU. 

[slusam]

Virginia 's out of state tuition is $42,000

[William Iken]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:51 PM, WUH said:

The answer varies from school to school.

A few thoughts:

The last two times SLU made a deep run in the tourney, tuition was around $21-22K per year (non including financial aid).  Tuition is $45K today though the discount is greater. 

Tuition at the University of Virginia is $15K.  This is true for both in-state and out.  Akron is $11K and 15K.  Other schools double the tuition for out of state folks.  $30K at Indiana is still way cheaper.  Obviously, this does not reflect the net price that a particular student may pay.

Tuition at Duke, Notre Dame and Stanford is even more, but they have a different student profile.

You cannot give away scholarships and grants to people who are not demonstrably eligible just to get around the scholarship issue.  SLU used to have a financial aid director who would do things most schools will not, but eventually it was discovered and SLU had to pay back millions.  They got off easy.  The new Director runs a much tighter ship.

Thanks for the response. While I see your point, I do wonder if there is some contradiction in the acknowledgement that schools now (in this competitive environment) "discount" off the sticker price with the later statement that schools cannot just "give away scholarships and grants". I should think that there are still a lot of these scholarships/grants with a fairly low minimum standard (ie min. GPA of 3.0) so that a school can have the opportunity to "discount" - that's how they do it, no?

And I appreciate the contribution by a subsequent poster that it is more conference than price. But I guess the question still holds, or I will shift it a little, is the price of SLU and other private universities that much more expensive post-discount/grants/scholarships such that we/they are disadvantaged? 

A related question is whether anyone knows the scholarship breakdown at SLU for this past season? How many on full, how many splitting partials and now many paying full fare (so called walk-ons in other fully funded sports)? To me, scholarship management plays a huge role in the  success (or otherwise) of a club. Any thoughts on the now departed coach in this regard?

[WUH]

My mistake on Virginia.

My point about scholarships and grants and tuition discounting is that SLU cannot arbitrarily give student athletes merit or need-based aid, but has to give it out in accordance with set institutional policies.  For most merit scholarship, they have a simple formula that considers GPA and ACT.  For need-based aid, they have to distribute according to the results of the FAFSA.

The Post Dispatch did a lengthy article on the challenges of schools such as SLU.

The ability for SLU to field a competitive soccer program goes way beyond one factor.  No question that the conference is an issue.

[Bobby Metzinger]

7 hours ago, WUH said:

 

The ability for SLU to field a competitive soccer program goes way beyond one factor.  No question that the conference is an issue.

What is the state of Missouri prep soccer situation like these days? Back in 01-05, SLU was amassing talent state-wide - kids like Will John from Rockhurst, Jackie Jewsbury was from Joplin for God sake and he came up 44  to join local stars like Brad Davis from Chaminade and John DiRaimando from SLUH. It seemed like we had some local stars slip to Indiana or Uva, but Donnigan always had great Missouri products on the roster. Are we losing the shine or are we casting a larger recruiting net?

[Bobby Metzinger]

I also hope a Kevin Kalish is on the short list of phone calls Chris May makes this week.

[billikenfan05]

1 minute ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

I also hope a Kevin Kalish is on the short list of phone calls Chris May makes this week.

He already said no from what I’ve heard

[Tilkowsky]

1 minute ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

I also hope a Kevin Kalish is on the short list of phone calls Chris May makes this week.

If I remember correctly Kalish quit coaching college soccer to go to club soccer so he could spend more time with his family.

maybe he has changed his mind on that, maybe not.

I think SLU's problems are bigger than just a coach. The conference they play in hinders them. A coach can't do anything about that.

 

[Bobby Metzinger]

Just now, billikenfan05 said:

He already said no from what I’ve heard

Shoot. Well, thanks for the info, 05.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Just now, Tilkowsky said:

If I remember correctly Kalish quit coaching college soccer to go to club soccer so he could spend more time with his family.

maybe he has changed his mind on that, maybe not.

I think SLU's problems are bigger than just a coach. The conference they play in hinders them. A coach can't do anything about that.

 

With all due respect to your SLU fandom, this is a major cop-out. UCLA basketball under Coach Wooden was probably too good for the Pac8/10 during his tenure in Westwood - but they won 88 consecutive games but out-coaching and out-playing the competition. They dominated and forced their wills on opponents. While I'm sure the last thing UCLA wanted to do was to play in Eugene, Oregon on a cold and snowy Wednesday night, but thems the breaks. Not much they could do about it, except win. A good coach, conference situation be dammed, brings a mentality of winning to a team. You have to control situations you can control - like the outcome of the game. Mike McGinty or his successor cannot control the conference situation. They cannot control having to fly to Olean. But they can control playing the game and hopefully winning the game, amassing a great conference record and doing what they can in the noncon. They can control on-field tactics and situational playing; they probably can't control how a team gels on the field, but a good coach is able to juggle egos and talent for the good of the collective.

A coach can do a lot more than you think, Tilkowsky.

[Clock_Tower]

 

47 minutes ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

With all due respect to your SLU fandom, this is a major cop-out. UCLA basketball under Coach Wooden was probably too good for the Pac8/10 during his tenure in Westwood - but they won 88 consecutive games but out-coaching and out-playing the competition. They dominated and forced their wills on opponents. While I'm sure the last thing UCLA wanted to do was to play in Eugene, Oregon on a cold and snowy Wednesday night, but thems the breaks. Not much they could do about it, except win. A good coach, conference situation be dammed, brings a mentality of winning to a team. You have to control situations you can control - like the outcome of the game. Mike McGinty or his successor cannot control the conference situation. They cannot control having to fly to Olean. But they can control playing the game and hopefully winning the game, amassing a great conference record and doing what they can in the noncon. They can control on-field tactics and situational playing; they probably can't control how a team gels on the field, but a good coach is able to juggle egos and talent for the good of the collective.

A coach can do a lot more than you think, Tilkowsky.

+1

And I don’t believe any P5 conference is interested in SLU. Also, the reality is that soccer will not dictate SLU’s  conference. Enough.

With this in mind and under these parameters,SLU either competes and puts the best team/coach they can on the field or they give up. 

Again, we saw what Bob Warming did in a short time here, what Spoon and RM also did and now what Ford is doing. We need to go this route. Turning to unproven former SLU soccer players is not the route. Am glad basketball hired Travis Ford and not Diener, Bonner, Walker...

[Bobby Metzinger]

5 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

 

+1

And I don’t believe any P5 conference is interested in SLU. Also, the reality is that soccer will not dictate SLU’s  conference. Enough.

With this in mind and under these parameters,SLU either competes and puts the best team/coach they can on the field or they give up. 

Again, we saw what Bob Warming did in a short time here, what Spoon and RM also did and now what Ford is doing. We need to go this route. Turning to unproven former SLU soccer players is not the route. Am glad basketball hired Travis Ford and not Diener, Bonner, Walker...

Great rebuttal - I think Kalish or Sorber would know the program well enough to want to restore the shine and bring back some real roots to the Hermann Stadium pitch, but perhaps an outsider would fare better (although it's a stretch given McGinty's outsider pedigree). 

I'm looking forward to the hire, whomever it may be. Time for a fresh start. 

[Billy Ken]

1 hour ago, Tilkowsky said:

If I remember correctly Kalish quit coaching college soccer to go to club soccer so he could spend more time with his family.

maybe he has changed his mind on that, maybe not.

I think SLU's problems are bigger than just a coach. The conference they play in hinders them. A coach can't do anything about that.

 

If Kalish said no thanks already, that says all that needs to be said about the state of this program. The last few years were like watching a slow motion train wreak. That's not on mcginty as much as the people who kept mcginty in his former role. Hope we are all surprised, however I have little faith in hoping the people that watched this program slowly melt are now the ones in charge of fixing it. Again hope we are all surprised.

[Bobby Metzinger]

8 minutes ago, Billy Ken said:

If Kalish said no thanks already, that says all that needs to be said about the state of this program. The last few years were like watching a slow motion train wreak. That's not on mcginty as much as the people who kept mcginty in his former role. Hope we are all surprised, however I have little faith in hoping the people that watched this program slowly melt are now the ones in charge of fixing it. Again hope we are all surprised.

Well, that's a double-edged sword way of looking at things; perhaps his children are in those years where being a Dad and a husband takes precedent -- you can't blame a guy for wanting to watch his kids grow and be a part of their lives 100% of the time. It also speaks to Kalish's character as a SLU grad (well, half Huskie-half Billiken) that he puts family over profession. Good for him. 

[Clock_Tower]

College soccer, in general, is in trouble. High school soccer is already being by passed by US Soccer and club soccer/national feeder teams. And spending 4 years in college is soon becoming the route for those not interested or able to play professionally. Changing the season and schedule of college is necessary to preserve college soccer. 

And, no, not surprised those with professional and USMNT connections are not interested in college coaching jobs such as SLU. SLU soccer is melting just like college soccer is melting. 

The right coach can offer both: a four year college degree option plus chance to play professionally.  No need to turn a a former great player and great soccer mind into a college teaching coach. Campus politics, club soccer ass kissing, fundraising, keeping boosters happy, allocating limited resources toward 17 year olds is just as important as coaching your players. Hire away a proven and experienced college coach with Midwest ties and the Scott Gallagher and Lou Fusz community will embrace him/SLU. 

[kwyjibo]

The A10 is not a great soccer conference but it had a very good year for its better teams this year.  The selection is in a few hours but I expect two at-large bids (Rhode Island is on the bubble but I expect only VCU and Fordham to get in).

UMass is the A10 champs and a few years ago they looked terrible.  They hired O'Leary a few years and he has done an outstanding job (he was Dartmouth and George Mason coach a while ago but he came from MLS and a DIII school before that).  Recruiting is still somewhat difficult for him but he gets a lot out of his players.  I admittedly have only seen the Billikens play once this year but they were obviously more talented than UMass yet UMass beat them twice.  That is coaching (UMass did not have the skills for a lot of possession and slick passing but they were obviously coached well in positioning and set pieces).  Although having seen SLU over the years I do not think this SLU team is particularly talented either -- it did have enough talent to be better than they were and to get an NCAA bid.  UMass, with less talent, is getting a bid and a bye.

I think recruiting is important and being in the A10 may be a small obstacle for that but you have to get a good tactical/system/teaching mind as well.  In fact it is the most important thing--you cannot fake it or gloss over it.  If that person has SLU or local connections so be it but there are a lot of rising programs in the NCAA right now that prove that recruiting is not the only factor (this is true in the era where foreign players are being shopped to college coaches by private agencies--you can fill in with competent players and luck without much recruiting savvy).

[HoosierPal]

Three A10 teams made the NCAA College Soccer Cup - VCU, UMass and Fordham.  The ACC leads with 9 teams, followed by the Big 10 with 4, the A10 and Pac 12 with 3 each and then the Big East bringing in only two.  The A10 was on par with all but the ACC this year. 

[aj_arete]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:51 PM, thetorch said:

Scott Gallagher has 2 top 5 kids in class of '18.

So where is the talent going? Is it Indiana?

[Gremio14]

1 hour ago, aj_arete said:

So where is the talent going? Is it Indiana?

Werder Bremen.....

[Tilkowsky]

1 hour ago, aj_arete said:

So where is the talent going? Is it Indiana?

The talent is going to P-5 schools. No one wants to play at a mid-major school like SLU. 

P-5 conference schools have DOMINATED College Cup for 30 years. Only three schools who would be considered a school like SLU have won College Cup in that timeframe.

No P-5 Conference is interested in SLU even though some on this board think the Big East is interested in SLU. As I said earlier, the Bug East would add UCONN back before adding SLU.

Sorber wouldn't be interested in the SLU job. He makes far too much money in MLS to even consider a move like that. Kalish I guess is a possibility.

College soccer is in trouble in terms of recruiting top talent. Look at Josh Sargent - no way was he even a possibility for SLU. Look at the U-17 WC team, not one kid was going to a college program. Every single one was affiliated with an Academy system.