Start of year starting lineup speculation

[Pistol]

Goodwin is a starter, period.

Put yourself in his shoes: You're a top-60 national recruit. You have offers from a bunch of Big Ten, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East, and ACC schools. In fact, on paper, your local program is actually one of your weakest offers. If they tell you anything except "You're going to start immediately and we're building the program around you", would you go there?

SLU is in no position to tell Goodwin he's going to earn his minutes. He's the highest-rated player we've signed since Larry Hughes. By signing with our program, enrolling, and now practicing and working out with the team, he has done his part. He's not going to sit on the bench behind anyone.

[Pistol]

As for the rest of the lineup, I think you have to assume Bess and Henriquez are starters based on Ford's comments. I don't know what combination of Foreman, French, and Anthony rounds out the starting five. Senior grad transfers tend to go places where they'll start, just based on my observation. I could see Anthony as the starting 5, and I'm super high on French so I'll call him the starting 4. Foreman, Roby, and Johnson are the first guys off the bench, rounding out an 8-man rotation. Bishop and Welmer will get single-digit minutes. We'll see Hines every once in a while for a few minutes. Graves is really going to shake things up in January.

Of course, not that it needs to be said, but "Starting is for high school." (Rick Majerus, RIP.) I'm basing my comments on expectations for overall minutes this season and not necessarily starting lineups only. We could see a lot of starting lineup switches based on matchups. We have the ability to go big and physical, and we'll also be able to start 4 guards in A10 play, depending on the night.

[thetorch]

12 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Goodwin is a starter, period.

Put yourself in his shoes: You're a top-60 national recruit. You have offers from a bunch of Big Ten, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East, and ACC schools. In fact, on paper, your local program is actually one of your weakest offers. If they tell you anything except "You're going to start immediately and we're building the program around you", would you go there?

SLU is in no position to tell Goodwin he's going to earn his minutes. He's the highest-rated player we've signed since Larry Hughes. By signing with our program, enrolling, and now practicing and working out with the team, he has done his part. He's not going to sit on the bench behind anyone.

Bishop will start over Goodwin.

[TFord and TRavs]

21 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Goodwin is a starter, period.

Put yourself in his shoes: You're a top-60 national recruit. You have offers from a bunch of Big Ten, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East, and ACC schools. In fact, on paper, your local program is actually one of your weakest offers. If they tell you anything except "You're going to start immediately and we're building the program around you", would you go there?

SLU is in no position to tell Goodwin he's going to earn his minutes. He's the highest-rated player we've signed since Larry Hughes. By signing with our program, enrolling, and now practicing and working out with the team, he has done his part. He's not going to sit on the bench behind anyone.

100% these people don't get it. 

9 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Bishop will start over Goodwin.

Lol 

[BIG BILL FAN]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

Goodwin is a starter, period.

Put yourself in his shoes: You're a top-60 national recruit. You have offers from a bunch of Big Ten, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East, and ACC schools. In fact, on paper, your local program is actually one of your weakest offers. If they tell you anything except "You're going to start immediately and we're building the program around you", would you go there?

SLU is in no position to tell Goodwin he's going to earn his minutes. He's the highest-rated player we've signed since Larry Hughes. By signing with our program, enrolling, and now practicing and working out with the team, he has done his part. He's not going to sit on the bench behind anyone.

He's not going to sit on the bench because he is talented! You are insulting our Coach when you state that the amount of Goodwin's playing time is not dependent on his performance. He would also lose the the respect of the entire roster and coaching staff if he intentionally played Goodwin over a more deserving player. It's amazing how little regard you apparently have for our head coach. As I said earlier, it's a moot point, because I fully expect Jordan to earn his playing time, but Jordan will not be running the team! I'm also amazed at your comment that Jordan" has already done his part". His job is far from being over. I expect him to be a good student, and a leader off an on the court. When he does that, then he will have done his part.

[Zink]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

As for the rest of the lineup, I think you have to assume Bess and Henriquez are starters based on Ford's comments. I don't know what combination of Foreman, French, and Anthony rounds out the starting five. Senior grad transfers tend to go places where they'll start, just based on my observation. I could see Anthony as the starting 5, and I'm super high on French so I'll call him the starting 4. Foreman, Roby, and Johnson are the first guys off the bench, rounding out an 8-man rotation. Bishop and Welmer will get single-digit minutes. We'll see Hines every once in a while for a few minutes. Graves is really going to shake things up in January.

Of course, not that it needs to be said, but "Starting is for high school." (Rick Majerus, RIP.) I'm basing my comments on expectations for overall minutes this season and not necessarily starting lineups only. We could see a lot of starting lineup switches based on matchups. We have the ability to go big and physical, and we'll also be able to start 4 guards in A10 play, depending on the night.

I think you have it right, although I could see Welmer filling a niche and getting into the double digits for minutes/game. 

[ACE]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

As for the rest of the lineup, I think you have to assume Bess and Henriquez are starters based on Ford's comments. I don't know what combination of Foreman, French, and Anthony rounds out the starting five. Senior grad transfers tend to go places where they'll start, just based on my observation. I could see Anthony as the starting 5, and I'm super high on French so I'll call him the starting 4. Foreman, Roby, and Johnson are the first guys off the bench, rounding out an 8-man rotation. Bishop and Welmer will get single-digit minutes. We'll see Hines every once in a while for a few minutes. Graves is really going to shake things up in January.

Of course, not that it needs to be said, but "Starting is for high school." (Rick Majerus, RIP.) I'm basing my comments on expectations for overall minutes this season and not necessarily starting lineups only. We could see a lot of starting lineup switches based on matchups. We have the ability to go big and physical, and we'll also be able to start 4 guards in A10 play, depending on the night.

 A lineup of Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French and Foreman will not be able to spread the floor very well - which is key to the way most offenses are run in today's game. When Goodwin is on the floor, which will be a LOT, in addition to Henriquez he will also need to be play with a second 3-point threat.

Goodwin's motor, physicality, rebounding, ability to see the floor and get to the rim are all college ready - it seems the two aspects that need development are 3-point shooting and ability to play the a point. As he gets his career going, pairing him with Roby, Bishop or Graves makes sense because they can help support with both of those aspects. If he proves he can do those two things consistently, then it will open up a lot more lineup possibilities.

[Pistol]

18 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

He's not going to sit on the bench because he is talented! You are insulting our Coach when you state that the amount of Goodwin's playing time is not dependent on his performance. He would also lose the the respect of the entire roster and coaching staff if he intentionally played Goodwin over a more deserving player. It's amazing how little regard you apparently have for our head coach. As I said earlier, it's a moot point, because I fully expect Jordan to earn his playing time, but Jordan will not be running the team! I'm also amazed at your comment that Jordan" has already done his part". His job is far from being over. I expect him to be a good student, and a leader off an on the court. When he does that, then he will have done his part.

Please name the player or players who is/are more deserving of a starting position than Goodwin.

Why is the idea of a freshman starting so outrageous to you? Have you watched basketball in the past 30 years?

[Pistol]

5 minutes ago, ACE said:

 A lineup of Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French and Foreman will not be able to spread the floor very well - which is key to the way most offenses are run in today's game. When Goodwin is on the floor, which will be a LOT, in addition to Henriquez he will also need to be play with a second 3-point threat.

Goodwin's motor, physicality, rebounding, ability to see the floor and get to the rim are all college ready - it seems the two aspects that need development are 3-point shooting and ability to play the a point. As he gets his career going, pairing him with Roby, Bishop or Graves makes sense because they can help support with both of those aspects. If he proves he can do those two things consistently, then it will open up a lot more lineup possibilities.

So who would you swap out of my starting lineup then? (By the way, I said French and Anthony, not that I know anything.)

Henriquez and Bess are going to be counted on as major scoring threats, if Ford is to be believed. Are you thinking four guards, even before Graves is eligible?

[Glorydays2013]

1 minute ago, Pistol said:

Why is the idea of a freshman starting so outrageous to you? Have you watched basketball in the past 30 years?

Some people only follow SLU and therefore have no idea what actual talent on the roster is. You hit the nail on the head Pistol. Goodwin will start in the season, if for some reason he doesn't perform he wont, much later in the season, close to conference time. However I do not see that happening. Crews era has twisted some people on here, and Majerus was unconventional 

[ACE]

12 minutes ago, Pistol said:

So who would you swap out of my starting lineup then? (By the way, I said French and Anthony, not that I know anything.)

Henriquez and Bess are going to be counted on as major scoring threats, if Ford is to be believed. Are you thinking four guards, even before Graves is eligible?

My guess would be Roby most likely in. I think Bess will be the 6th man, with Goodwin, Henriquez, Roby and Foreman as the most likely starters. I had the same impression as brianstl based on interviews with Ford - Bess as the 6th man. No shame in being a 6th man, Jordair showed how valuable that role could be, providing a spark of the bench.

The 4 is the most interesting position - could go in a lot of different directions - French, Johnson and possibly Bess as an undersized 4.  When Ford decides to play a stretch 4 like Johnson or Welmer, then pairing with a more rugged 3 like Bess would make a lot of sense.

[Zink]

28 minutes ago, ACE said:

 A lineup of Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French and Foreman will not be able to spread the floor very well - which is key to the way most offenses are run in today's game. When Goodwin is on the floor, which will be a LOT, in addition to Henriquez he will also need to be play with a second 3-point threat.

Goodwin's motor, physicality, rebounding, ability to see the floor and get to the rim are all college ready - it seems the two aspects that need development are 3-point shooting and ability to play the a point. As he gets his career going, pairing him with Roby, Bishop or Graves makes sense because they can help support with both of those aspects. If he proves he can do those two things consistently, then it will open up a lot more lineup possibilities.

I agree here, that putting out a lineup that adequately spreads the floor will be something of a challenge until Graves shows up. Bishop is an average 3-pt shooter, while Johnson, Roby and Henriquez are good from that range, and Graves looks to be somewhere in between. Welmer is good for a big, while French, Foreman, and Santos are not known as shooters (although French and Foreman do look reliable from 16-18ft). If Goodwin and/or Bess even shoot at an average clip (33-35%), we will be in good shape. But it is quite probable that they don't, affecting - even though they profile as key players - the rotation, as they will need to share the court with other guys who can shoot. Whether we need two or three capable shooters on at any given time will depend on a lot of things, but the consensus seems to be that we need at least two guys out there. This puts the utility of a lineup like Goodwin-Bess-French-Foreman-(+1) in doubt.

[Zink]

3 minutes ago, ACE said:

My guess would be Roby most likely in. I think Bess will be the 6th man, with Goodwin, Henriquez, Roby and Foreman as the most likely starters. I had the same impression as brianstl based on interviews with Ford - Bess as the 6th man. No shame in being a 6th man, Jordair showed how valuable that role could be, providing a spark of the bench.

The 4 is the most interesting position - could go in a lot of different directions - French, Johnson and possibly Bess as an undersized 4.  When Ford decides to play a stretch 4 like Johnson or Welmer, then pairing with a more rugged 3 like Bess would make a lot of sense.

Wholeheartedly agree with this last statement, and also think Bess could provide more value off the bench than he would as a starter.

[cgeldmacher]

I don't know how Coach Ford does things, but I can certainly see a situation where Goodwin and French don't start, but are the first guys off the bench and get starter playing time.  I can also see both Goodwin and French, and recruits for that matter, being perfectly fine with that.  Under this scenario, I can see both of them starting by mid December, because it becomes obvious that they are two of our best five guys, if that is what happens.

Saying that Goodwin needs to be starting Day 1 or else he will be unhappy may just be an insult to Jordan.  It also might be an insult to Coach Ford that he's so not in control of his own team that he has to start certain guys over others, not because its what he feels is best, but because he's beholden to recruits.

I think the best case scenario is that Roby, AD, JJ, Bess, and Foreman/Welmer begin the season in the starting lineup.  Goodwin and French are the first guys off the bench and get significant playing time.  A month into the season, it becomes obvious that Goodwin and French need to be starting and that happens then.  Under this scenario, both guys get the feeling that most college basketball players get to have in their careers.  They get to feel like they earned their way into a starting spot.  That is much better for them and their development than handing them a starting spot just because Coach is fearful of the impact on recruiting.

Let's give Goodwin and French the benefit of the doubt that they are not petty glory hounds that will pout if they are not starting day one.  From what I've heard, they're both better than that.

[HenryB]

33 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Please name the player or players who is/are more deserving of a starting position than Goodwin.

Why is the idea of a freshman starting so outrageous to you? Have you watched basketball in the past 30 years?

Stop beings so pompous!  Please tell me where Big Bill ever said it was outrageous that a freshman could start??  Don't make up crap.  Jordan is a multi talented player.  I am sure he will start.  But that doesn't mean he doesn't have to continue to perform.  There are many 4 star recruits across the nation that haven't started because they didn't live up to expectations.

[Quality Is Job 1]

6 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

I don't know how Coach Ford does things, but I can certainly see a situation where Goodwin and French don't start, but are the first guys off the bench and get starter playing time.  I can also see both Goodwin and French, and recruits for that matter, being perfectly fine with that.  Under this scenario, I can see both of them starting by mid December, because it becomes obvious that they are two of our best five guys, if that is what happens.

Saying that Goodwin needs to be starting Day 1 or else he will be unhappy may just be an insult to Jordan.  It also might be an insult to Coach Ford that he's so not in control of his own team that he has to start certain guys over others, not because its what he feels is best, but because he's beholden to recruits.

I think the best case scenario is that Roby, AD, JJ, Bess, and Foreman/Welmer begin the season in the starting lineup.  Goodwin and French are the first guys off the bench and get significant playing time.  A month into the season, it becomes obvious that Goodwin and French need to be starting and that happens then.  Under this scenario, both guys get the feeling that most college basketball players get to have in their careers.  They get to feel like they earned their way into a starting spot.  That is much better for them and their development than handing them a starting spot just because Coach is fearful of the impact on recruiting.

Let's give Goodwin and French the benefit of the doubt that they are not petty glory hounds that will pout if they are not starting day one.  From what I've heard, they're both better than that.

Excellently stated.

[BIG BILL FAN]

44 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Please name the player or players who is/are more deserving of a starting position than Goodwin.

Why is the idea of a freshman starting so outrageous to you? Have you watched basketball in the past 30 years?

did you actually read my reply? I agree 100% that Goodwin will likely be the starter. Now understand this, if he is the starter, it will because he earns it. You were implying that he will be the starter regardless of his performance. I think that is insulting to the coach, if you think that he will start Goodwin if he has not earned the job. I have no problem at all with a freshman starting if he has earned the job. You on the other hand feel he is entitled to the job just because he was a high level commit. I can't see why you would disagree with what I said. 

[Pistol]

7 minutes ago, HenryB said:

Stop beings so pompous!  Please tell me where Big Bill ever said it was outrageous that a freshman could start??  Don't make up crap.  Jordan is a multi talented player.  I am sure he will start.  But that doesn't mean he doesn't have to continue to perform.  There are many 4 star recruits across the nation that haven't started because they didn't live up to expectations.

I never said I didn't expect him to perform, or live up to expectations. I just said he was the best player on our team since Larry Hughes, and I expect him to play above the other players on our roster. He's a great player with a great attitude and there's very little in his way, joining a team that has won 34 games total in the past three seasons.

People keep talking about Goodwin having to prove himself. Isn't that what he's doing right now? You guys realize this team is working out and practicing together every day already, right? Does he need to string together a few big-time games before he deserves a chance? Have any of you actually seen what Goodwin is capable of?

This is nonsense. He's the best player. He starts.

By the way, I don't think you know what "pompous" means.

[Pistol]

3 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

did you actually read my reply? I agree 100% that Goodwin will likely be the starter. Now understand this, if he is the starter, it will because he earns it. You were implying that he will be the starter regardless of his performance. I think that is insulting to the coach, if you think that he will start Goodwin if he has not earned the job. I have no problem at all with a freshman starting if he has earned the job. You on the other hand feel he is entitled to the job just because he was a high level commit. I can't see why you would disagree with what I said. 

This is categorically false. I said he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, or "earn" his minutes beyond what he's already done - which is being the best player we've signed since Larry Hughes. He has already performed. He has earned the job by being the best player on the team. The job is his to lose.

(I'm also not implying that he can sit on the couch until the season starts. It goes without saying that he's expected to put in the work in practice and conditioning and the classroom. That's just part of the job. My baseline expectation is that all players will do it, so I don't even bother mentioning it. He's putting in the work like everyone else.)

I return to what I said about recruiting. Jordan Goodwin would not have come to SLU if he thought he'd have to wait his turn. And if you think Ford told him he'd have to wait, you're fooling yourself.

[HenryB]

3 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I never said I didn't expect him to perform, or live up to expectations. I just said he was the best player on our team since Larry Hughes, and I expect him to play above the other players on our roster. He's a great player with a great attitude and there's very little in his way, joining a team that has won 34 games total in the past three seasons.

People keep talking about Goodwin having to prove himself. Isn't that what he's doing right now? You guys realize this team is working out and practicing together every day already, right? Does he need to string together a few big-time games before he deserves a chance? Have any of you actually seen what Goodwin is capable of?

This is nonsense. He's the best player. He starts.

By the way, I don't think you know what "pompous" means.

"Irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important"  yep, I know what pompous is...you are fulfilling that to perfection.  You are probably the best poster on this board and you have earned the respect you have received.  Don't tarnish that by putting words in the mouth's of others that they didn't say to prop up a weak argument.  Your reply to me was not only pompous but also indicative of someone who is a smart ass.

[Pistol]

Just now, HenryB said:

"Irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important"  yep, I know what pompous is...you are fulfilling that to perfection.  You are probably the best poster on this board and you have earned the respect you have received.  Don't tarnish that by putting words in the mouth's of others that they didn't say to prop up a weak argument.  Your reply to me was not only pompous but also indicative of someone who is a smart ass.

I make no apology for being a smart ass.

I don't think it's pompous to say that Goodwin has to "earn" his starting spot on a team that has been brutally bad for three years. Saying Goodwin will start is like saying we will put a team on the floor this season. Until this thread, I thought this was an uncontroversial opinion. If you consider this to be a weak opinion, then I have nothing for you.

[hsmith19]

What a silly argument in what started out as a pretty solid thread.

[BIG BILL FAN]

5 minutes ago, Pistol said:

This is categorically false. I said he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, or "earn" his minutes beyond what he's already done - which is being the best player we've signed since Larry Hughes. He has already performed. He has earned the job by being the best player on the team. The job is his to lose.

(I'm also not implying that he can sit on the couch until the season starts. It goes without saying that he's expected to put in the work in practice and conditioning and the classroom. That's just part of the job. My baseline expectation is that all players will do it, so I don't even bother mentioning it. He's putting in the work like everyone else.)

I return to what I said about recruiting. Jordan Goodwin would not have come to SLU if he thought he'd have to wait his turn. And if you think Ford told him he'd have to wait, you're fooling yourself.

How can you say he doesn't have to prove himself when he hasn't played one game for the Bills???????????? Should we go ahead and proclaim him the greatest Billiken player ever and hang his jersey if the rafters now??????????? Talk about putting pressure on a player........ever heard of Ryan Leaf..........We are all rooting for Jordan, but you are out of touch with reality. Jordan has a lot of ability, but he definitely has things to work on, you know those little things like ft's and 3 pt shooting............

[TFord and TRavs]

It's just funny how so many people who haven't seen them play are picking the lineups. Goodwin will start as will french.

Also stop with the numbers. There are only guards and forwards now. 

Whoever said Rasheed grad transferred so he can start is wrong. The guy did almost nothing at seton hall. Players like Foreman have shown they can compete at the high level. I can see Foreman and French competiting for minutes, not Rasheed. 

 

[Pistol]

37 minutes ago, ACE said:

My guess would be Roby most likely in. I think Bess will be the 6th man, with Goodwin, Henriquez, Roby and Foreman as the most likely starters. I had the same impression as brianstl based on interviews with Ford - Bess as the 6th man. No shame in being a 6th man, Jordair showed how valuable that role could be, providing a spark of the bench.

The 4 is the most interesting position - could go in a lot of different directions - French, Johnson and possibly Bess as an undersized 4.  When Ford decides to play a stretch 4 like Johnson or Welmer, then pairing with a more rugged 3 like Bess would make a lot of sense.

2 things:

1. I see a starting four, not five.

2. You interpreted Ford's interviews differently than I did. 10 days ago, he said this about Bess (paraphrasing from an audio interview summarized by RiseAndGrind in another thread): "We have a lot of players who can play a lot of different positions. Everyone is going to play a lot. Bess could be one of most valuable players on the team. Could be best defender on the team. Can score in many ways. He's a 6'6" guard who can post up. Good strength. Good size. His outside jump shot is improving. He's a stat guy. I want 8-10 rebounds, couple steals, 16-18 points from Bess. He's at the gym 6 am every morning by himself."

-Those numbers are very good and would all but guarantee an all-conference selection for him. Now, I know Ford is positing those as best-case scenario numbers for a dynamic player like Bess to target, as a sort of motivational tool for him. But do you think he'd say that if he didn't pencil him in as a starter?

Jordair was an exception, as far as starting goes. I think when most of us are talking about "starters", we are thinking in terms of the top five guys in terms of minutes per game, the most common rotation on the floor. We're not talking about Grandy Glaze starting and playing a few high-energy minutes to set the tone.