FInal Roster? Potential line-ups thread

[Taj79]

To who starts I say who cares.  As Exhibit A, I offer Grandy Glaze.

 

[SLU_Nick]

37 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

 Why wouldn't Welmer play?

Because Jim Crews is no longer the coach.

[majerus mojo]

Welmer projects as the homeless man's Kelly Olynyk. If he can come in and hit a couple threes over a 4-5 minute stretch, great. If not, please remain seated

[DoctorB]

OK; I'll bite. 

This is going to be sort of fun:  seeing how the line-up emerges at first, then changes...

Personally, I think outside of Goodwin and Henriquez, it is a bit hard to say who starts; and it's pretty absurd for any of us to judge the "chemistry" of who fits best with whom, at this point.  On a sheer skill/scoring level, those 2 are the elite players, in my eyes, so it seems likely they would be starters.  I will also say, I would be surprised if Roby does not start, as senior.  He has the edge, as far as experience in the system.   The rest of this is spitballing, but here are a few more points:

Anthony's name is Rashed, not Rasheed

Bess is hardly a 4; actually he will play wing and be a terrific defensive stopper; I will be interested to see how he matches up against the other team's power scorers.

Johnson really changed and matured in just a few months, so I agree with those touting his potential.  I could see him starting.

We have significantly strengthened out bigs over the past few weeks, believe me we are going to be bigger and stronger than ever, I think.  It's going to be fun watching Foreman, Anthony, French, etc. bang it out in practice for minutes.  This will really force French, with terrific upside, to compete, everyday.

I think our bench strength is looking awesome going into the year:  really have some good players at 6, 7, 8 and beyond!!!  Best since I've been here at SLU?? maybe -- can't wait to see some live action with the newcomers over the summer... stay tuned!

OT:  I saw Coach at pre-commencement this morning, and happy to see Reggie walk the stage!!

[Zink]

2 hours ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Welmer averaged around 7 points per game, 20 minutes.  Those are good numbers.  He hit around 40% from 3.  He was even pretty effective around the rim at times.  He will definitely get playing time.  May start.  The same can be said for Johnson.  Honestly, Foreman, French, Bess, and Anthony haven't proven they can average 7 points in 20 minutes. We held opponents to a respectable 68 points down the stretch.  Why wouldn't Welmer play?

I'll reiterate, Welmer was our best player/minute by every advanced metric last year. He also passed the eye test, scoring in the post rather well (if infrequently), and demonstrating an excellent outside shot for a big - Ellis had one season with better three-point shooting, Loe had none. Interestingly, a lot of his value came on the defensive end, which we started to see in the box score towards the end of the year when he was getting more blocks. He adds a dimension that no one else on the team does, and is all the more important when two of our better guards (Bess and Goodwin) are not expected to be significant outside threats. If healthy - a big if - I don't know how you can keep him off the floor. 

My rub on Foreman is that he was never very efficient offensively (46.3% is not a good shooting percentage for a big who plays inside), and measures out as a solid, if not spectacular, defender and rebounder. But putting Bess as one of our two bigs, as Skip notes, may be useful when trying to create match-up problems, but would be a red-flag if it became our bread and butter. It would mean that French isn't as ready as we hope, Welmer and Foreman have struggles coming back from injury, Johnson hasn't improved, and Anthony can't handle minutes. Or that Bess is an all-conference first teamer (a la Dwayne Evans), I guess.

 

[slufan13]

People seem to want a 12 man rotation. Talented players are going to sit on the bench with Ford's upgraded roster. Ford doesn't like to go deep into his bench historically. 

[Old guy]

Honestly, I wish we had the kinds of problems you are worrying about every single year. It means that we are loaded with good players, this year we are. What a great comeback from last year!

[RUBillsFan]

I think too many MBMs are stuck in the traditional C, PF, SF, SG, PG mode when it comes to the lineup.  That's not how modern basketball works.  The college game has been all about guard play for a while and a lot of teams play with 4 players on the court that you would traditionally call "guards" or at least "wing" players.  NBA is trending that way as well.  Basketball is becoming about height.

Now, I think the past, people remember guys like Sloan, Meyer, Danny Brown, and to a lesser extent Evans playing the "PF" position and thinking that if we have a guy like Bess playing there, then it means something is wrong because we don't have talented big men.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if SLU goes with lineups at times where you would traditionally call Bess the PF, but it will be because that lineup gives us an advantage.

[HoosierPal]

50 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

I think too many MBMs are stuck in the traditional C, PF, SF, SG, PG mode when it comes to the lineup.  That's not how modern basketball works.  The college game has been all about guard play for a while and a lot of teams play with 4 players on the court that you would traditionally call "guards" or at least "wing" players.  NBA is trending that way as well.  Basketball is becoming about height.

Now, I think the past, people remember guys like Sloan, Meyer, Danny Brown, and to a lesser extent Evans playing the "PF" position and thinking that if we have a guy like Bess playing there, then it means something is wrong because we don't have talented big men.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if SLU goes with lineups at times where you would traditionally call Bess the PF, but it will be because that lineup gives us an advantage.

You are 100% correct.  We likely won't have anyone even listed only as a C on the roster.  Anthony was a PF on Seton Hall's roster,.  Foreman and Welmer were both listed as Forwards on the SLU roster.

One issue no one is talking about is defense.  You saw last year that if you didn't defend, you were on the bench. You can be a double digit scorer, but if you are giving up more than you score, you need to find a seat next to the coaches.

 We have maybe 6 returning players that could average double digit points (Bishop, Foreman, AD, Johnson, Roby and Welmer).  SLU has had only 14 Freshmen averaging double digit points.  Both Goodwin and French you hope can average double digits, but maybe not both of them their freshman year.  So who defends could be the larger key to who plays the majority of minutes.  

Ford has stated more than once that he likes an 8 man rotation, with two others that can 'hold the fort'.  Those are his words.   Eight players are listed above, and Bess, who isn't a scorer, is a 9th.  Throw in Anthony as a 10th, and you then can mix and match the 10 names to get your 8 in the rotation and 2 fort holders.  When Graves becomes eligible he will have to prove his worth.  Nothing will be given to him.  It will be harder for him to crack the SLU lineup than it was the BC lineup last year.  

Team chemistry is the other white element.  Which groupings of players will blend together the best.  You can look at stats all day, but if the top line stats guys can't play together, then you have a loosing situation.

[615Billiken]

So many questions up in the air, but here is my depth chart for the beginning of the season:

PG: Roby, Bishop,Ty Graves 

SG: Goodwin, Henriquez

SF: Bess, Johnson

PF:  Foreman,French

C:  Anthony, Welmer

[3star_recruit]

28 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

You are 100% correct.  We likely won't have anyone even listed only as a C on the roster.  Anthony was a PF on Seton Hall's roster,.  Foreman and Welmer were both listed as Forwards on the SLU roster.

One issue no one is talking about is defense.  You saw last year that if you didn't defend, you were on the bench. You can be a double digit scorer, but if you are giving up more than you score, you need to find a seat next to the coaches.

 We have maybe 6 returning players that could average double digit points (Bishop, Foreman, AD, Johnson, Roby and Welmer).  SLU has had only 13 Freshmen averaging double digit points.  Both Goodwin and French you hope can average double digits, but maybe not both of them their freshman year.  So who defends could be the larger key to who plays the majority of minutes.  

Ford has stated more than once that he likes an 8 man rotation, with two others that can 'hold the fort'.  Those are his words.   Eight players are listed above, and Bess, who isn't a scorer, is a 9th. 

Saying a kid who averaged 20 ppg against good high school competition isn't a scorer because he was relegated to a defensive specialist at Michigan State may be overly presumptuous.  I expect him to be at least as good as Ash.

[majerus mojo]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

I think too many MBMs are stuck in the traditional C, PF, SF, SG, PG mode when it comes to the lineup.  That's not how modern basketball works.  The college game has been all about guard play for a while and a lot of teams play with 4 players on the court that you would traditionally call "guards" or at least "wing" players.  NBA is trending that way as well.  Basketball is becoming about height.

Now, I think the past, people remember guys like Sloan, Meyer, Danny Brown, and to a lesser extent Evans playing the "PF" position and thinking that if we have a guy like Bess playing there, then it means something is wrong because we don't have talented big men.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if SLU goes with lineups at times where you would traditionally call Bess the PF, but it will be because that lineup gives us an advantage.

Bingoooo. Ford is going to have these guys running rampant up and down the court. We might see more dunks next season than in the previous 5 combined 

[slufanskip]

22 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

True, Ford will provide all of us MBM's with the answers in due time.  Until then, opinions are free to post, and free to criticize.

All of the media reports, backed up by his stats, suggest that Bess is a poor outside shooter.  He is 2-11 from the Arc for his career.  In 500 minutes of playing time, he has shot 11 three pointers, or less than one per 40 minute game.  The East Lansing sports pundits also wrote that he had limited outside game.  And they saw the kid play.  So if you want a wing that doesn't have to be closely guarded outside of 15 feet, then Bess might fit the bill. He might be better suited for playing closer to the paint. Again, positional numbers don't mean anything this day.  You might see Bess, Foreman and French all on the floor at the same time.  But the scheme at the time might be an outside-in game.  You could get away with that if your other two players are three point shooters, such as Roby and AD.  Bess' primary job might be to set picks for shooters.

 

Did I question whether anyone should post an opinion or criticize one? Thanks for informing though just in case I was thinking differently. I get his lack of outside game, I also get you could have him in the game with say Welmer and Bess will work more inside than Welmer on the offensive end, However most of the post above wanted Bess as one of 2 bigs. And if you saw Bess, French, and Foreman on the floor at the same time Bess would be considered the 3 and he'd guard the opposing 3

[slufanskip]

17 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

I think too many MBMs are stuck in the traditional C, PF, SF, SG, PG mode when it comes to the lineup.  That's not how modern basketball works.  The college game has been all about guard play for a while and a lot of teams play with 4 players on the court that you would traditionally call "guards" or at least "wing" players.  NBA is trending that way as well.  Basketball is becoming about height.

Now, I think the past, people remember guys like Sloan, Meyer, Danny Brown, and to a lesser extent Evans playing the "PF" position and thinking that if we have a guy like Bess playing there, then it means something is wrong because we don't have talented big men.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if SLU goes with lineups at times where you would traditionally call Bess the PF, but it will be because that lineup gives us an advantage.

No one is saying there won't be times where the matchup dictates it. However, if Bess plays the majority of his minutes as the 2nd big, our true bigs will have been disappointing. If he's on the floor with Welmer and Foreman or French and Forman or any 2 other bigs he's the 3.  We've never had so much depth with true bigs, so why would you play Bess there on a normal basis. Hell if that's the way it works out Ford isn't as good of a recruiter as we thought as he wasted a few scholarships on bigs that aren't good enough to play.

Most of us aren't thinking Bess won't be the 2nd big or (4) normally because we understand the game not because we remember Sloan or Evans. Evans played the 4 at times because we lacked many better inside options. Sloan and Meyer played the 4 because that's the player they were but if our bigs are as good as I think they are neither of those 2 guys would get a lot of minutes on this years team and Evans would play and guard the opposing 3 

[BIG BILL FAN]

17 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

I think too many MBMs are stuck in the traditional C, PF, SF, SG, PG mode when it comes to the lineup.  That's not how modern basketball works.  The college game has been all about guard play for a while and a lot of teams play with 4 players on the court that you would traditionally call "guards" or at least "wing" players.  NBA is trending that way as well.  Basketball is becoming about height.

Now, I think the past, people remember guys like Sloan, Meyer, Danny Brown, and to a lesser extent Evans playing the "PF" position and thinking that if we have a guy like Bess playing there, then it means something is wrong because we don't have talented big men.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if SLU goes with lineups at times where you would traditionally call Bess the PF, but it will be because that lineup gives us an advantage.

There is a lot to think about when deciding what your best combination at any given time should be. I came across this article which gives some interesting insight. It also gives some evidence as to the value of a player like Welmer,who is able to step out and hit the 3.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2017-02-21/breaking-down-3-point-shooting-scoring-boom-college

[STL Hoops Insider]

Bess being great at the 4 spot does not mean the other bugs aren't good, just means he could be a matchup nightmare there, a more athletic Evans.

[BIG BILL FAN]

27 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

Bess being great at the 4 spot does not mean the other bugs aren't good, just means he could be a matchup nightmare there, a more athletic Evans.

Agree, but there needs to be complintary players on the floor to maximize his talents. Maybe a Welmer and Bess or a Welmer and Foreman combination  would be more effective against a given opponent than a Foreman, Bess lineup. 

[NextYearBill]

17 hours ago, majerus mojo said:

Bingoooo. Ford is going to have these guys running rampant up and down the court. We might see more dunks next season than in the previous 5 combined 

my mouth starting watering when i read that

[WVBilliken]

On 5/17/2017 at 10:44 PM, Glorydays2013 said:

My starting line-up for the first game as of right now

Goodwin-1

Roby-2

Adonys-3

French and Bess as our forwards

 

I can see Bishop coming in for Roby

Johnson coming in for Adonys

Foreman and Rasheed coming in for Bess or French

 

Later in the season add graves to come in for Roby or Goodwin, maybe even start over Roby

Welmer coming in later for French or Bess or being an alternate to Rasheed or foreman. This one is tough since he has a more diversified skill set than Foreman and Rasheed

 

Disagree.

Line up on day 1........Goodwin, Roby, Henriquez, Foreman, Johnson.

See Bishop, Bess, French getting lots of minutes off the bench.  See startinGermany changing as the year goes on.

But of course...........only time will tell.

[STL Hoops Insider]

I don't see any way Javon, Adonys, or DJ don't start. Now the positions are debatable. I could see DJ starting at the 5 or 4. I could see Bess anywhere 2-4, Adonys 2 or 3.

[HoosierPal]

46 minutes ago, WVBilliken said:

Disagree.

Line up on day 1........Goodwin, Roby, Henriquez, Foreman, Johnson.

See Bishop, Bess, French getting lots of minutes off the bench.  See startinGermany changing as the year goes on.

But of course...........only time will tell.

I can buy into this rotation.  Welmer will get his minutes, pending his health. 

As we play a more aggressive, faster style, the minutes will be spread around. Two reasons, the first being a likely increase in fouls from a more aggressive style (until the guys figure out how the refs are calling games) and the second fatigue.  There is no time to rest on the floor.  Last season we had three players average over 30 mpg for the season.  That shouldn't happen this coming season.

Match ups will be the next key.  If our opponent is playing small ball, can our bigger lineup adequately guard them and play to our strength of a bigger, more physical lineup?  If we face a four guard lineup, what is our best match up?  There is always a HUGE step up on defense from High School to College.  How long until the freshman can adequately satisfy Coach on the defensive end?  Coach has a lot of time to figure this out.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Not much shooting outside Adonys, but I look at Bess' stroke and I think he can make shots, just might've shot poorly due to pressing a big at Michigan State. I'm not sure if you go big with Anthony or French alongside Foreman or smaller with Bess or Johnson at the 4 and Foreman at the 5. I don't see a scenario with Foreman as a reserve.

[Quality Is Job 1]

3 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

Not much shooting outside Adonys, but I look at Bess' stroke and I think he can make shots, just might've shot poorly due to pressing a big at Michigan State. I'm not sure if you go big with Anthony or French alongside Foreman or smaller with Bess or Johnson at the 4 and Foreman at the 5. I don't see a scenario with Foreman as a reserve.

You seem to be forgetting about Roby and Bishop.  Also, Johnson and Welmer have shown they can hit perimeter shots.  And when Graves is eligible, in game 10 or 11 (or so), he's another shooter.  Three-point shooting might not be this squad's major strength as it was during the Claggett/Highmark/Waldman era, but I don't think it will be a major weakness, either.

[STL Hoops Insider]

15 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

You seem to be forgetting about Roby and Bishop.  Also, Johnson and Welmer have shown they can hit perimeter shots.  And when Graves is eligible, in game 10 or 11 (or so), he's another shooter.  Three-point shooting might not be this squad's major strength as it was during the Claggett/Highmark/Waldman era, but I don't think it will be a major weakness, either.

I just meant in the starting lineup. Roby and Johnson are the only returnees I see that could possibly start. But i don't think they would be in your ideal lineup.

[CBFan]

3 hours ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

I just meant in the starting lineup. Roby and Johnson are the only returnees I see that could possibly start. But i don't think they would be in your ideal lineup.

That is interesting coach I really like Roby and Johnson and I thought they would make a good lineup.

I am just a fan not a coach so I value your opinion so I will rethink the lineup.