Voters could bring the MLS to St. Louis April 4th

[bk18]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/voters-could-bring-the-mls-to-st-louis-with-soccer/article_e4e820be-46c8-51ac-b278-2cd3f0831136.html

[Old guy]

The issue with soccer has always been getting the warm bodies to pay for tickets and to attend games. I believe there have been prior attempts to establish professional soccer teams in St. Louis that have not been successful. The real question is what happens if the city, etc... shell out the money and the professional soccer league in St. Louis is, once more, not successful. 

[Soderball]

3 minutes ago, Old guy said:

The issue with soccer has always been getting the warm bodies to pay for tickets and to attend games. I believe there have been prior attempts to establish professional soccer teams in St. Louis that have not been successful. The real question is what happens if the city, etc... shell out the money and the professional soccer league in St. Louis is, once more, not successful. 

the MLS has pro soccer in the US at a status it hasn't been in the past.

I think a third pro sports franchise is good for St Louis. This town can easily support it.

Getting fans engaged with the MLS product is another matter; particularly if they end up not being in the upper rungs of the league. I harbor my doubts if they will be able to build a strong brand and a strong following The potential is there, making it happen is another matter.

[gobillsgo]

55 minutes ago, Old guy said:

The issue with soccer has always been getting the warm bodies to pay for tickets and to attend games. I believe there have been prior attempts to establish professional soccer teams in St. Louis that have not been successful. The real question is what happens if the city, etc... shell out the money and the professional soccer league in St. Louis is, once more, not successful. 

St Louis would undoubtedly support an MLS team. 

[Billboy1]

8 minutes ago, gobillsgo said:

St Louis would undoubtedly support an MLS team. 

Remains to be seen.  Expansion team several years of poor record-will fan base continue support.

[gobillsgo]

6 minutes ago, Billboy1 said:

Remains to be seen.  Expansion team several years of poor record-will fan base continue support.

Same can be said of any sports team anywhere. 

[Old guy]

Well gobillsgo, if you are so sure this is going to be fully supported by St. Louis you should mortgage your house, empty your 401k and invest it all in the new franchise. Who knows you may be driving a Lamborghini before too long. 

Come on guy, talk is cheap and good wishes are a dime a dozen. It is hard to monetize a thing like this in a city with a prior history of failing to do so in the not so distant past. This is likely to be money down the drain. Worse than that even, the tax (if it passes) will never be repealed. If the MLS league fails it will remain in place but the money will be put to use into some other boondoggle by the City. Ever heard of the gift that keeps on giving? 

Soderball, I agree St. Louis can support such a venue, but making it to succeed will not be easy. Perhaps gobillsgo may make some money with the MLS after all.

[slufanskip]

4 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Well gobillsgo, if you are so sure this is going to be fully supported by St. Louis you should mortgage your house, empty your 401k and invest it all in the new franchise. Who knows you may be driving a Lamborghini before too long. 

Come on guy, talk is cheap and good wishes are a dime a dozen. It is hard to monetize a thing like this in a city with a prior history of failing to do so in the not so distant past. This is likely to be money down the drain. Worse than that even, the tax (if it passes) will never be repealed. If the MLS league fails it will remain in place but the money will be put to use into some other boondoggle by the City. Ever heard of the gift that keeps on giving? 

Soderball, I agree St. Louis can support such a venue, but making it to succeed will not be easy. Perhaps gobillsgo may make some money with the MLS after all.

This is like saying the NFL can't make it in St. Louis because we've had a few unsuccessful semi-pro teams.

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, Old guy said:

 

Come on guy, talk is cheap and good wishes are a dime a dozen. It is hard to monetize a thing like this in a city with a prior history of failing to do so in the not so distant past. This is likely to be money down the drain. Worse than that even, the tax (if it passes) will never be repealed

 

The use tax and sales tax already exist.  The vote is for 1) increase in the sales tax and a corresponding increase in the use tax and 2) to put the new use tax funds into the MLS stadium.  Even if the vote fails, the taxes will still exist.

The Entertainment Tax is placed on the game ticket.  You don't go, you don't pay.  Pretty simple.  No public vote is needed for this.  Your vote is whether or not you go to the game.

[Old guy]

Well, at least the taxes will not be raised if the measure fails HoosierPal. 

Sulfan, if you had the money and the connections to do so, would you bet a few hundred million dollars (or more, assume your name if Buffet for a while) in trying to get a new NFL franchise into St. Louis and make it work. If not, why not?

[slufanskip]

9 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Well, at least the taxes will not be raised if the measure fails HoosierPal. 

Sulfan, if you had the money and the connections to do so, would you bet a few hundred million dollars (or more, assume your name if Buffet for a while) in trying to get a new NFL franchise into St. Louis and make it work. If not, why not?

No. I have no interest in the NFL and what does that have to do with anything? 

[Old guy]

It means that there are any number of other people in this area who share a lack of interest in the NFL with you, which would make the establishment of a viable NFL franchise in St. Louis very difficult, and certainly not worth the millions upon millions of dollars it would cost. A same case may be made about MLS.

[Soderball]

1 hour ago, Old guy said:

Well, at least the taxes will not be raised if the measure fails HoosierPal. 

Sulfan, if you had the money and the connections to do so, would you bet a few hundred million dollars (or more, assume your name if Buffet for a while) in trying to get a new NFL franchise into St. Louis and make it work. If not, why not?

Would I like to see an NFL franchise in STL? Sure. Will it happen? No. Will I watch or listen or pay attention in any way to the NFL's crappy product? No.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, Old guy said:

It means that there are any number of other people in this area who share a lack of interest in the NFL with you, which would make the establishment of a viable NFL franchise in St. Louis very difficult, and certainly not worth the millions upon millions of dollars it would cost. A same case may be made about MLS.

OK from all your post you obviously do not like soccer.  StL can support and will support a MLS team - don't worry.  No I am not putting my money into it - they need deeper pockets then mine.  I will however purchase a ticket from time to time.  Hope that meets with your money where your mouth is position.

[STL Hoops Insider]

I'd rather have NBA D League basketball than MLS Soccer 

[Box and Won]

24 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

I'd rather have NBA D League basketball than MLS Soccer 

Uh, no thanks.

[Soderball]

32 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

I'd rather have NBA D League basketball than MLS Soccer 

Uhh, you can keep that. Maybe they could have one in Peoria or in Springfield IL.

If St Louis gets anywhere on the NBA radar, i expect a full NBA team.

I'd rather have an NBA team than an MLS team, but i'd much, much, much rather have an MLS team than some D league team.

Our town has taken enough knocks and hits before you spout stuff like that. Are you on our side?

[RiseAndGrind]

43 minutes ago, STL Hoops Insider said:

I'd rather have NBA D League basketball than MLS Soccer 

This makes no sense. I'm sure people would be waiting in line to see Patrick O'Bryant wannabees

[Soderball]

2 hours ago, Old guy said:

It means that there are any number of other people in this area who share a lack of interest in the NFL with you, which would make the establishment of a viable NFL franchise in St. Louis very difficult, and certainly not worth the millions upon millions of dollars it would cost. A same case may be made about MLS.

Old guy, I think the consensus is that we would all like to see an MLS team and believe there is a reasonable possibility of success. Like you, I have reservations on the issue. I would follow the team and how they are progressing. It would be a win for our region, especially to beat out the California and Florida markets we are competing with on this one. We'll be able to sign a much smarter lease/agreement than the loot job that was offered to the vermin kroenke. Hopefully. Leave it to city officials to screw that up.

[Soderball]

6 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

This makes no sense. I'm sure people would be waiting in line to see Patrick O'Bryant wannabees

That is some really foolish stuff. Just go watch some AAU ball. St Louis has a great AAU scene and great high school basketball. What on earth does a market of this size need a D-league team for? NBA scouts already show up here. We have an airport that is well-connected within the continental united states(even if its pathetic reach goes not beyond these shores). This isn't some podunk town in the middle of nowhere. Maybe Olean needs a D-league team.

NBA scouts will be here to watch high school players in the area if they need to be, SLU doesn't need a d-league team to sell NBA exposure. I'm scratching my head on that viewpoint.

[moytoy12]

Would love to see MLS in St. Louis.  St. Louis FC is averaging about 5,000 fans, which gives me a reasonable amount of confidence that an MLS team could be solidly supported.  MLS, for its many issues, is on solid footing as a sports league and is only improving.  Finally, having an MLS team/facility close to SLU could lead to good things for SLU soccer.  

In terms of hosting a pro franchise in a city, there is no rational argument for wanting a D league team over an MLS team. 

[Old guy]

Soderball, I have big doubts about this one, and no I have no intention of going to see an MLS game. I think yes, a few people will buy a ticket here and there like you said you would, but this is plainly not enough to fill a professional size stadium in a regular basis.

If you add to it the fact that we are currently competing with California and Florida for the MLS franchise it gets much worse. We are asked to raise taxes and set aside real money from the budget for something that is not more than a competition, a dream so far. We have absolutely no assurance of getting the team in St. Louis! Insane! Hell, if those promoters want to have a professional soccer team in St. Louis let them ante their own money, and come asking for public funding once they get the franchise confirmed for St. Louis. If they want money guarantees before the commitment of the team to St. Louis is reached, they should be required to repay the public funds provided for the purpose if the team goes elsewhere. The city spent $30 M in planning the new NFL stadium that was turned down like a big package of dog crap by the Rams. No way we can do this imbecility again, this is ridiculous, pure Disney: "Dream, dream, and your  dreams will come true". How many empty stadium mortgages does the city want to continue paying for the next 20  years or so. Insane!  

You want to dream baby, great, use your own dough or get out of the bidding.

 

[gobillsgo]

9 hours ago, Old guy said:

Soderball, I have big doubts about this one, and no I have no intention of going to see an MLS game. I think yes, a few people will buy a ticket here and there like you said you would, but this is plainly not enough to fill a professional size stadium in a regular basis.

If you add to it the fact that we are currently competing with California and Florida for the MLS franchise it gets much worse. We are asked to raise taxes and set aside real money from the budget for something that is not more than a competition, a dream so far. We have absolutely no assurance of getting the team in St. Louis! Insane! Hell, if those promoters want to have a professional soccer team in St. Louis let them ante their own money, and come asking for public funding once they get the franchise confirmed for St. Louis. If they want money guarantees before the commitment of the team to St. Louis is reached, they should be required to repay the public funds provided for the purpose if the team goes elsewhere. The city spent $30 M in planning the new NFL stadium that was turned down like a big package of dog crap by the Rams. No way we can do this imbecility again, this is ridiculous, pure Disney: "Dream, dream, and your  dreams will come true". How many empty stadium mortgages does the city want to continue paying for the next 20  years or so. Insane!  

You want to dream baby, great, use your own dough or get out of the bidding.

 

Actually, it is a sure thing. If the stadium vote passes, we will have a team. And none of your tax dollars will go toward it unless you go to the games. (Or if you own a business that imports from out of state, then you will have a slight increase in use tax.)  If you can't understand this by now, no one is going to change your mind, which is a shame because our city needs a win. 

[slufanskip]

10 hours ago, Old guy said:

Soderball, I have big doubts about this one, and no I have no intention of going to see an MLS game. I think yes, a few people will buy a ticket here and there like you said you would, but this is plainly not enough to fill a professional size stadium in a regular basis.

If you add to it the fact that we are currently competing with California and Florida for the MLS franchise it gets much worse. We are asked to raise taxes and set aside real money from the budget for something that is not more than a competition, a dream so far. We have absolutely no assurance of getting the team in St. Louis! Insane! Hell, if those promoters want to have a professional soccer team in St. Louis let them ante their own money, and come asking for public funding once they get the franchise confirmed for St. Louis. If they want money guarantees before the commitment of the team to St. Louis is reached, they should be required to repay the public funds provided for the purpose if the team goes elsewhere. The city spent $30 M in planning the new NFL stadium that was turned down like a big package of dog crap by the Rams. No way we can do this imbecility again, this is ridiculous, pure Disney: "Dream, dream, and your  dreams will come true". How many empty stadium mortgages does the city want to continue paying for the next 20  years or so. Insane!  

You want to dream baby, great, use your own dough or get out of the bidding.

 

For someone who lectures and talks down to the board more often than they have a real conversation you are completely clueless.

BTW... I know a lot of people who don't care for hockey. They don't go to games, nor do they watch them on TV. I'm one of them yet Hockey has proven to be pretty successful despite my indifference. It's not whether there are people who don't care that matter. It's whether there are enough people that do care that will make the difference. And you may be right, it may not make it if the general public is as uninformed as you are. Your first argument was minor league soccer has failed so the MLS will fail is just stupid now it will fail because some people don't like soccer and won't spend their money. You need to get a clue with how soccer is growing in the USA. Take a real look at the MLS and see how they are doing.

How about we say the same for the Zoo and Forest Park regarding dough. I don't go to either so why should I want any of my tax dollars to go to them?

The MLS isn't the NFL the franchise will happen if we get funding for a stadium. I'll make a deal with you if we get stadium funding in place and we don't get a team I'll give you $100 that will cover any lost tax money you've had. However, if we do get the team you give me $100 just because you caused me to waste my time arguing with someone so clueless.

And I will put my money where my mouth is with season tickets and I know quite a few others that will also. St. Louis will support a team. Like all sports if the product sucks the support will fade. Let the Cardinals be below 500 for 5-10 years in a row and see how many people go. Check attendance in the early 90's and that's within a decade of being in 2 World Series and winning 1. Check the 70's also within a decade of 2 world series and 1 win. Let the Cards become mediocre again and the support will quickly diminish. The public paid for part of Busch, the Scottrade Center,  Forest Park and it's entities, the Zoo, I'd assume the Science Center, bicycle trails, other parks, etc ... so if we're going to be in the business of funding entertainment why would a MLS stadium be different? And if gobillsgo is correct (I don't know myself so I'm taking his word here) above it won't cost the average tax payer who doesn't go to the games a penny.

I feel the same here as I do with most of your condescending posts.  I'd prefer to read Glory Days

[Old guy]

Fine, let's say we get the stadium built and we get the MLS. The city of St. Louis projections for their expense in the project is $60 M, they also projected potential earnings resulting from this $60 M to be $70 M over 30 years. If you think that is a good rate of return on a capital expenditure think again. Remember these are projections generated by people working for a government body, and therefore the chances of being correct are let's say slim. They tend to be very optimistic projections designed to get a project passed by the voters (that is my own bias). However, let's accept the projections as a true statement of fact. Assuming a steady rate of earnings, we would get earnings of about $2.3 M per year out of this investment, in a percentage basis this is 3.88% a year earnings yield. Now then, the US bonds with absolutely no risk associated with payments yield the following at this time: 10 year US bonds 2.59%, 30 year bonds 3.17% with no absolutely no risk and guaranteed payment at maturity. Compare this to some kind of estimated yield (based upon estimated projections that are not guaranteed) that is only 0.71% over the yield of the 30 year US bond but have absolutely no guarantees that it will be realized by maturity.

I have no idea how you came up with the idea that if the stadium is built we are guaranteed the MLS will choose St. Louis over the competition. Is there a written agreement between the promoters and the MLS guaranteeing this to happen? If so why is there a competition between a number of cities to get this commitment from the MLS? Again, it sounds to me like misinformation designed to get the project done. I know I am negative about this. It really does not matter, it will be what it will be, all it will succeed in doing is to impoverish St. Louis city even more. Have it your way. I am certainly not going to vote in favor of this and neither will a lot of other people, who may also be clueless. However I believe we, the people against the project, are thought to be clueless primarily because we do not see this issue the same way as those that favor the project do.

By the way, keep your money, it is generous of you to offer but I will not accept it.