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7 hours ago, Franchise_08 said:

If we had Tatum this year with this group of guys, where do we finish? I wouldn't say tournament bound but probably damn close. 

If nothing else we would of had better chance to win A-10 tournament and get automatic bid. I always think of Larry Bird and Indiana St. when wondering how good a team can be with one and done level player and average players filling out roster.

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7 hours ago, Glorydays2013 said:

We could have been dancing with Tatum and here is why, if we got Tatum, local talent would have come with him. Cook would have come and maybe the guy who went to K state. This would have had to have come with an early commit from Tatum though. It could have been a lesser Duquene when they had Curry. 

Pure speculation though. I guess that would have probably only happen if we had Ford one year earlier though, because Crews couldn't have done that

There would be NO Cook with Tatum. I repeat, there would be NO Cook with Tatum. Cook was looking to make his own mark outside STL. Well known fact. Don't bank on him having brought too many others with him. 

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7 hours ago, Glorydays2013 said:

We could have been dancing with Tatum and here is why, if we got Tatum, local talent would have come with him. Cook would have come and maybe the guy who went to K state. This would have had to have come with an early commit from Tatum though. It could have been a lesser Duquene when they had Curry. 

Pure speculation though. I guess that would have probably only happen if we had Ford one year earlier though, because Crews couldn't have done that

Double post. 

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15 minutes ago, The Pelican said:

Double post. 

Pelican - do you have any bits of info that could make this board more enjoyable?

Between Mizzou, Illinois, and the bickering back and forth - we could use some good news/tidbit.

hell make it up. I don't care.

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8 hours ago, The Pelican said:

There would be NO Cook with Tatum. I repeat, there would be NO Cook with Tatum. Cook was looking to make his own mark outside STL. Well known fact. Don't bank on him having brought too many others with him. 

A big part of the problem with Sneed was that the feeling in Sneed's camp was that Crews and Co only really cared about Tatum in St Louis.  That is compared to Weber and especially Lowery who made them feel like they where part of big family.

I don't see how landing Tatum would have fixed that problem.

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GloryDays ---- serious question ... where were you in 1997-98?  Why do I ask?  Because that was the year of Larry Hughes.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and all these recruits would follow.  Get Larry Hughes they said and all these national-level recruits would follow to play with him.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and ride two years of his stardom to a top fifty forever program.  Twenty years later, and you're advocating the very same thing by being the "they" in "Get Jayson Tatum they said."

We got Larry Hughes.  The local recruits followed him --- Baniak, Tatum the father, Redden.  Guess what?  They weren't that good because when Larry left, mediocrity returned.  We got Larry Hughes and national recruit Chris Heinrich came in from Philly.  Chris Heinrich, national recruit?  Sure, what did we know.  But the rumors of other national recruits was amazing ---- Quentin Richardson.  Pete Mickeal.  Others long forgotten.  Some will even tell you Justin Love signed with us to play with the Legend.  But the Legend left after one year not two.  The players he brought with him all seemed to suffer for his leaving.  I believe that much like LeBron, the Legend made those around him all that much better.  Without him, flat line city.  Well, that's unfair but not anywhere near where "top" recruits should have you. 

The next year, our coach quit.  Spoon hung it up (temporarily) and in came Romar and he posted a 51 - 44 record.  Mediocre.  Save one Miracle in Memphis run.  Then Soderberg and his mediocre 80 and 74 record.  It took Majerus four years to get it going (sans one due to the Situation).  But Majerus built with nary a five-star recruit.  He built with a system.  And then here comes Jayson Tatum.  Into [dead] world with nary a clue on the bench. 

I believe that if you asked Spoon, Romar and Sodeberg about what their system was and what their plan was, they might have an answer.  I know Majerus had one.  Because Majerus was the only one that made it work, I naively believe his was best.  Who wouldn't.  But much like kids sign with coaches, programs are similar to those coaches as well.  Coach K, Self, Izzo, Williams, Calipari --- these guys, ergo those programs ---- do the one-and-doner every year.  In some cases, two or three guys go per year.  They just reload.  They know how and have the fortitude to be considered by all the biggest names for this reason.  And the replacement parts can sometimes be better than those leaving.  Hughes showed me at least, that this program has no clue what a one-and-doner means.  It is too rare of air at good ol' Saint Louie Ewie.  I don't have a problem with Gordon right now because 1) Ford had some experience with Marcus Smart and more importantly 2) the talent around Gordon would be much more improved provided Goodwin, Thatch, French and Graves all meet expectations.

Having lived through it once, my line was "Jayson Tatum -- no thank you" amplified by my utmost desire to sever ties with [dead].  Having had that happen and looking at the results --- I am extremely happy right now.

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2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

GloryDays ---- serious question ... where were you in 1997-98?  Why do I ask?  Because that was the year of Larry Hughes.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and all these recruits would follow.  Get Larry Hughes they said and all these national-level recruits would follow to play with him.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and ride two years of his stardom to a top fifty forever program.  Twenty years later, and you're advocating the very same thing by being the "they" in "Get Jayson Tatum they said."

We got Larry Hughes.  The local recruits followed him --- Baniak, Tatum the father, Redden.  Guess what?  They weren't that good because when Larry left, mediocrity returned.  We got Larry Hughes and national recruit Chris Heinrich came in from Philly.  Chris Heinrich, national recruit?  Sure, what did we know.  But the rumors of other national recruits was amazing ---- Quentin Richardson.  Pete Mickeal.  Others long forgotten.  Some will even tell you Justin Love signed with us to play with the Legend.  But the Legend left after one year not two.  The players he brought with him all seemed to suffer for his leaving.  I believe that much like LeBron, the Legend made those around him all that much better.  Without him, flat line city.  Well, that's unfair but not anywhere near where "top" recruits should have you. 

The next year, our coach quit.  Spoon hung it up (temporarily) and in came Romar and he posted a 51 - 44 record.  Mediocre.  Save one Miracle in Memphis run.  Then Soderberg and his mediocre 80 and 74 record.  It took Majerus four years to get it going (sans one due to the Situation).  But Majerus built with nary a five-star recruit.  He built with a system.  And then here comes Jayson Tatum.  Into [dead] world with nary a clue on the bench. 

I believe that if you asked Spoon, Romar and Sodeberg about what their system was and what their plan was, they might have an answer.  I know Majerus had one.  Because Majerus was the only one that made it work, I naively believe his was best.  Who wouldn't.  But much like kids sign with coaches, programs are similar to those coaches as well.  Coach K, Self, Izzo, Williams, Calipari --- these guys, ergo those programs ---- do the one-and-doner every year.  In some cases, two or three guys go per year.  They just reload.  They know how and have the fortitude to be considered by all the biggest names for this reason.  And the replacement parts can sometimes be better than those leaving.  Hughes showed me at least, that this program has no clue what a one-and-doner means.  It is too rare of air at good ol' Saint Louie Ewie.  I don't have a problem with Gordon right now because 1) Ford had some experience with Marcus Smart and more importantly 2) the talent around Gordon would be much more improved provided Goodwin, Thatch, French and Graves all meet expectations.

Having lived through it once, my line was "Jayson Tatum -- no thank you" amplified by my utmost desire to sever ties with [dead].  Having had that happen and looking at the results --- I am extremely happy right now.

To be fair - Justin Love came because of Hughes.  The problem was Hughes left and that left Love my himself.  To make matters worse that was the year he was hurt - bad back. With Love and Hughes Spoon would have his Sweet 16 team - depending on the draw of course, if we would have gotten a KY again in the second round all bets would have been off but they had a real shot. Spoon retired and Romar came - the rest is history.

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2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

GloryDays ---- serious question ... where were you in 1997-98?  Why do I ask?  Because that was the year of Larry Hughes.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and all these recruits would follow.  Get Larry Hughes they said and all these national-level recruits would follow to play with him.  Get Larry Hughes, they said, and ride two years of his stardom to a top fifty forever program.  Twenty years later, and you're advocating the very same thing by being the "they" in "Get Jayson Tatum they said."

 

Is it true that the internet has been a game changer for recruiting? Watching videos online of players to see what they can do without being there in person before you dedicate your time to them, online stat sheets, twitter, national recruit rankings. I think you also proved top local talent came with Hughes, but they didn't pan out like we expected.

I guess we can see in the next month where Porter goes. If players make a lateral move with him, that can be an example of what Tatum could have been. But to be honest talking about the past with Tatum goes nowhere unless we are talking up Ford's ability.

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15 hours ago, The Pelican said:

There would be NO Cook with Tatum. I repeat, there would be NO Cook with Tatum. Cook was looking to make his own mark outside STL. Well known fact. Don't bank on him having brought too many others with him. 

That is consistent with what I was hearing from the start. Cook didn't have much interest in SLU or with following Jayson.

Justin Tatum was on with Martin Kilcoyne and Charlie Marlow this afternoon and said some things of interest for us Billiken fans. Essentially said that Jayson is a real homebody and had things been different at SLU, there would have been a much better chance of him staying home (maybe someone can find the exact quote). He was also very complimentary of Travis Ford and the job he has done.

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Just now, TheChosenOne said:

That is consistent with what I was hearing from the start. Cook didn't have much interest in SLU or with following Jayson.

Justin Tatum was on with Frank C. this afternoon and said some things of interest for us Billiken fans. Essentially said that Jayson is a real homebody and had things been different at SLU, there would have been a much better chance of him staying home (maybe someone can find the exact quote). He was also very complimentary of Travis Ford and the job he has done.

Larry Hughes said some similar things during a broadcast earlier this season. Hinting that SLU screwed it up.

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14 hours ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Pelican - do you have any bits of info that could make this board more enjoyable?

Between Mizzou, Illinois, and the bickering back and forth - we could use some good news/tidbit.

hell make it up. I don't care.

We are getting a visit from Marcedus Leech from Poplar Bluff.

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8 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

That is consistent with what I was hearing from the start. Cook didn't have much interest in SLU or with following Jayson.

Justin Tatum was on with Frank C. this afternoon and said some things of interest for us Billiken fans. Essentially said that Jayson is a real homebody and had things been different at SLU, there would have been a much better chance of him staying home (maybe someone can find the exact quote). He was also very complimentary of Travis Ford and the job he has done.

Think Tatum was going to be on with Kilcoyne.  I'll listen once the podcast is posted.  

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4 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

My bad, he was on with Kilcoyne and Marlow. Sorry about that (I updated my original post).

No problem.  Frank's podcasts from todays show are already posted and I didn't see it so I double checked.  Thanks for the heads up!

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34 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

We are getting a visit from Marcedus Leech from Poplar Bluff.

Not even going to check if this is true or not. GIMME. 

I also forgot that Tate coached at Mineral Area for years, which may help explain why we are suddenly making inroads in SEMO.

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cheese -- I thought I was fair, I said "some will tell you Justin Love signed with us to play with the Legend."  I put it that way because I always heard that second- and third-hand.  I don't dispute its factuality, I'm just not an authority on whether or not that happened.  Not saying it didn't either.

Glory --- I asked you a direct question ... where were you in 1997-98?  You answered by going off into a tangent about the internet and recruiting.  Answer my question, in the mean time, I'll answers yours.

1 hour ago, Glorydays2013 said:

Is it true that the internet has been a game changer for recruiting? Watching videos online of players to see what they can do without being there in person before you dedicate your time to them, online stat sheets, twitter, national recruit rankings. I think you also proved top local talent came with Hughes, but they didn't pan out like we expected.

I guess we can see in the next month where Porter goes. If players make a lateral move with him, that can be an example of what Tatum could have been. But to be honest talking about the past with Tatum goes nowhere unless we are talking up Ford's ability.

I would say the internet has been an enabler of recruiting.  More people can see more things at more times.  However, the views are definitely slanted.  No one is going to put a mix tape up of themselves clanging rims, blowing layups, and wilting under pressure.  Neither is any member of their entourage going to do that in case the recruit is their personal "lottery" ticket to big times, bright lights and big money -- as every 16- to 17-year-old sees themselves.  In essences, its all subjective.  So too are twitter and national recruit rankings.  Clark Francis did rankings a long time ago.  The AP now has to include KenPom, BPI, Sagarin and LaDeDah ratings as well.  Stat sheets mean nothing --- a guy throws down 30 per game, except for one game.  Off night?  Or playing equal competition?  No -- the reality is as many on this board have advocated --- GOSEETHEKIDSPLAY.  All the internet does for me is maybe help cull the wheat from the chaff.  In case you did not know, Spoon took kids sight unseen based on such input.  Check out the career totals for Donnie Adkins and Ricky Cranford to see how that went.  It's an aid, another tool in the toolbox -- but not an end all.  Like intelligence gathering you cannot eliminate the human element and expect a complete, exact synopsis.

Given the careers of Baniak, Tatum and Redden, I will agree that "local" talent came with Hughes.  I don't believe in hindsight it was "top local talent" given the results.  But that in essence is the problem with recruiting -- it's a crap shoot.  Baniak and Tatum with Hughes were like 8's or 9's -- Baniak was even Top 100 at one point.  Both without Hughes dropped down to 4 to 5 level, even lower to me because expectations were so high to begin with.  Neither seemed to have much of a game without Hughes. 

Finally, Porter.  If players do or do not make a move with Porter, to randomly says such a same thing would have happened with Tatum is pure poppycock and drivel.  I can't state this as a fact but it seems to me that Tatum was a lone ranger ---- Cook went away, Barnes went away, Lewis II went away.  The only tie Tatum seems to have had was with Harry Giles --- who also went away and to Duke with Jayson. 

Finally, I 'll agree with one thing completely --- you can't talk Tatum without Ford's ability.  And since none of that happen, all talk is speculation. 

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

cheese -- I thought I was fair, I said "some will tell you Justin Love signed with us to play with the Legend."  I put it that way because I always heard that second- and third-hand.  I don't dispute its factuality, I'm just not an authority on whether or not that happened.  Not saying it didn't either.

Glory --- I asked you a direct question ... where were you in 1997-98?  You answered by going off into a tangent about the internet and recruiting.  Answer my question, in the mean time, I'll answers yours.

I would say the internet has been an enabler of recruiting.  More people can see more things at more times.  However, the views are definitely slanted.  No one is going to put a mix tape up of themselves clanging rims, blowing layups, and wilting under pressure.  Neither is any member of their entourage going to do that in case the recruit is their personal "lottery" ticket to big times, bright lights and big money -- as every 16- to 17-year-old sees themselves.  In essences, its all subjective.  So too are twitter and national recruit rankings.  Clark Francis did rankings a long time ago.  The AP now has to include KenPom, BPI, Sagarin and LaDeDah ratings as well.  Stat sheets mean nothing --- a guy throws down 30 per game, except for one game.  Off night?  Or playing equal competition?  No -- the reality is as many on this board have advocated --- GOSEETHEKIDSPLAY.  All the internet does for me is maybe help cull the wheat from the chaff.  In case you did not know, Spoon took kids sight unseen based on such input.  Check out the career totals for Donnie Adkins and Ricky Cranford to see how that went.  It's an aid, another tool in the toolbox -- but not an end all.  Like intelligence gathering you cannot eliminate the human element and expect a complete, exact synopsis.

Given the careers of Baniak, Tatum and Redden, I will agree that "local" talent came with Hughes.  I don't believe in hindsight it was "top local talent" given the results.  But that in essence is the problem with recruiting -- it's a crap shoot.  Baniak and Tatum with Hughes were like 8's or 9's -- Baniak was even Top 100 at one point.  Both without Hughes dropped down to 4 to 5 level, even lower to me because expectations were so high to begin with.  Neither seemed to have much of a game without Hughes. 

Finally, Porter.  If players do or do not make a move with Porter, to randomly says such a same thing would have happened with Tatum is pure poppycock and drivel.  I can't state this as a fact but it seems to me that Tatum was a lone ranger ---- Cook went away, Barnes went away, Lewis II went away.  The only tie Tatum seems to have had was with Harry Giles --- who also went away and to Duke with Jayson. 

Finally, I 'll agree with one thing completely --- you can't talk Tatum without Ford's ability.  And since none of that happen, all talk is speculation. 

Sorry I must have missed that.

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4 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

That is consistent with what I was hearing from the start. Cook didn't have much interest in SLU or with following Jayson.

Justin Tatum was on with Martin Kilcoyne and Charlie Marlow this afternoon and said some things of interest for us Billiken fans. Essentially said that Jayson is a real homebody and had things been different at SLU, there would have been a much better chance of him staying home (maybe someone can find the exact quote). He was also very complimentary of Travis Ford and the job he has done.

They asked if anybody had a chance or if Duke was so far ahead on the list that it was 98% Duke.  Justin said the other chance was the hometown.  If circumstances were different, if they were what they are now, SLU and Duke would've been a nail biter.  At that time, the right situation was Duke for him to go to and it showed this last month.  Duke wasn't a landslide ahead but it was the best situation and if things were different with SLU or even Mizzou or Ilinois things would be different because he's such a hometown kid and he's even home now.  

Here's a link to the full interview.  Link

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