WestCoastBilliken Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Jesus... this is the new "SLU should be in the Valley" talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Glorydays, are you retired and have nothing to do except post here? Sure beats watching TV does it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Surely you missed the part where I never want to be in the Valley....... I want SLU to be in a better conference than they are now. A10 was great, then Butler and Xavier left and it is not so great anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Glorydays2013 said: Surely you missed the part where I never want to be in the Valley....... I want SLU to be in a better conference than they are now. A10 was great, then Butler and Xavier left and it is not so great anymore. The problem is that right now and for the forseeable future, SLU has nowhere better to go than the A10. What is the current Big East in large measure has been the goal for many of us for decades, for me since I was at SLU from '78-'85. That's why it is so disappointing that SLU somehow did not get in the Big East in '13, and that Creighton of Omaha is sitting in our Big East seat. There are reasons for this, ones I dispute, but have to begrudgingly accept. That doesn't mean that I like it. That SLU took the Interim tag off Crews, who then proceeded to have back to back 21 loss seasons in '15 and '16 after the Sons of Majerus departed after the '14 season, certainly has not helped the situation. This being said, I do think SLU is back on track and headed in the right direction behind Travis Ford. I attended the NCAA Tournament Sunday in Sacramento. There was Oregon out there playing that zone defense again, the one that completely befuddled the Crews coached Billikens in San Jose in '13. In different segments, that Oregon zone had Rhode Island struggling, once during an Oregon run in the first half, from which Rhode Island recovered and actually took control of the game, and again at crunch time at the end of the game. Altman with that zone basically just dares you to jack up 3's. You can't dribble into that zone. Parts of that game brought back nightmares, shades of '13. Rhode Island did a better job overall than SLU did, but still succumbed. I don't have a crystal ball, but my take is Dayton and VCU are staying put in the A10. VCU has nowhere better to go, as right now Wichita State probably has the higher brand and is #1 in line for the 1 possible open spot in the American. Dayton is blocked from the Big East by Xavier primarily, and Marquette has an old beef with Dayton, which might go back to Dayton's addition to the old MCC (now Horizon League) and the MCC Tournament being awarded to Dayton. It may be something else. But my understanding is there is something there. Dayton fans think there is a Jesuit conspiracy against Dayton. VCU is a public school, not a stellar one academically, and it being a public school would open up the Big East to those messy Freedom of Information Act, Public Records Requests. VCU's ceiling is probably the A10, right where it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said: The problem is that right now and for the forseeable future, SLU has nowhere better to go than the A10. What is the current Big East in large measure has been the goal for many of us for decades, for me since I was at SLU from '78-'85. That's why it is so disappointing that SLU somehow did not get in the Big East in '13, and that Creighton of Omaha is sitting in our Big East seat. There are reasons for this, ones I dispute, but have to begrudgingly accept. That doesn't mean that I like it. That SLU took the Interim tag off Crews, who then proceeded to have back to back 21 loss seasons in '15 and '16 after the Sons of Majerus departed after the '14 season, certainly has not helped the situation. This being said, I do think SLU is back on track and headed in the right direction behind Travis Ford. I attended the NCAA Tournament Sunday in Sacramento. There was Oregon out there playing that zone defense again, the one that completely befuddled the Crews coached Billikens in San Jose in '13. In different segments, that Oregon zone had Rhode Island struggling, once during an Oregon run in the first half, from which Rhode Island recovered and actually took control of the game, and again at crunch time at the end of the game. Altman with that zone basically just dares you to jack up 3's. You can't dribble into that zone. Parts of that game brought back nightmares, shades of '13. Rhode Island did a better job overall than SLU did, but still succumbed. I don't have a crystal ball, but my take is Dayton and VCU are staying put in the A10. VCU has nowhere better to go, as right now Wichita State probably has the higher brand and is #1 in line for the 1 possible open spot in the American. Dayton is blocked from the Big East by Xavier primarily, and Marquette has an old beef with Dayton, which might go back to Dayton's addition to the old MCC (now Horizon League) and the MCC Tournament being awarded to Dayton. It may be something else. But my understanding is there is something there. Dayton fans think there is a Jesuit conspiracy against Dayton. VCU is a public school, not a stellar one academically, and it being a public school would open up the Big East to those messy Freedom of Information Act, Public Records Requests. VCU's ceiling is probably the A10, right where it is now. Thank you, I guess all I can say is that if there is an opportunity, SLU should be selfish and take it IF it comes. I am just optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 6 hours ago, kwyjibo said: Travis Ford went from UMass to OK State. Jim Barron also moved up from St. Bonaventure. Also, FGCU's Dooley is leading candidate at UMass with Winthrop's Kelsey leading the group of Plan B's. King Rice is a UMass plan B but likely to be hired by Duquesne. I know that Jim but some on here were in diapers likely back then. Just had a "recent" cutoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almaman Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said: The idea is to stockpile enough coaching, talent, and experience to compete at a very high level in as good of a conference as possible -- good enough that winning a regular-season championship merits an at-large bid to the NCAA Tournament. (See Illinois State.) You also want that conference to be respected enough to get preferential seeding in early-season tournaments. Juan Bid ("one-bid") leagues don't get that; they get sent on the road for the first couple of rounds and play in the "lightweights" division even if they win against any of the "heavyweights." (See Ball State.) Also, members of higher-caliber conferences are able to schedule reciprocal home series (aka "home-and-home," which I don't think makes sense) against "Power 5" or "Power 6" conference schools. Such conferences get more (many more) of their members' games shown on national television, and the most talented recruits want to play for such schools. In other words, Gonzaga is an anomaly that won't last forever, not a formula for success. I'll take Zags flash in the pan last 15 years + whatever over our last 40 years in a NY minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soderball Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 On 3/19/2017 at 5:19 PM, slufan13 said: How is a weakened VCU good for anyone in the A10? It isn't. It makes it way harder to get into the tournament. The A10 turning into the Missouri Valley is not good for anybody. We are dependent on VCU Dayton and SLU to keep the A10 above that crappy level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I have to object to the disparagement of the A-10 outside of VCU and Dayton. The A10 has been a bit down the last few years (and I cannot say what the future will hold) but there is still lots of recent tourney history for the majority of the conference. In fact EVERY A10 team outside of Duquesne and Fordham have gone to the NCAA tournament since 2011 (several multiple times). Also 5 different A10 teams have made Elite 8 runs since 2004. Team Last Tourney Number Elite 8 or Better this Century Saint Joseph's 2016 20 2004 Dayton 2017 18 2014 VCU 2017 16 2011 Davidson 2013 13 2008 La Salle 2013 12 George Washington 2014 11 Rhode Island 2017 9 Richmond 2011 9 Saint Louis 2014 9 Massachusetts 2014 8 St. Bonaventure 2012 6 George Mason 2011 6 2006 Duquesne 1977 5 Fordham 1992 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 We'll have to agree to split hairs here Jim ...... first off, my first "I disagree" statement is your inclusion of VCU, Mason and Davidson on your list of "Elite 8" or better. None was in the A10 when that run took place; Mason I believe was in the Colonial and Davidson was in the Southern Conference and VCU didn't join the A10 until 2012 -- which would the year after their run. And also Colonial. My second point is a reverse disagreement of sorts for St. Joe's. Their run was in 2004 as noted; we didn't join the A10 until 2005. Therefore, just to me, what they did back then is immaterial in the way I apply the A10 to Saint Louis University. Its like me watching the great La Salle team of Larry Cannon and Billy Taylor ---- back in 1968. It is of no relevance but to me and only me. So to me, the only runs the A10 has in the fold are Dayton in 2014 and La Salle the year before that. TWO. And when I put that in the context of "what have you done for me lately," I'm out. Conversely, Umass under Calipari with Camby has no bearing either. Much like us, I think the issue with the A10 is sustainability ---- namely Dayton and VCU seem to be there every year; the others are more one-and-doners than most. Like La Salle or the Bonnies ---- La Salle's next Sweet Sixteen will likely involve hell freezing over and the Bonnies will hover just above mediocre until maybe Andrew Nicholson's son or grandson shows up to follow in dad/granddad's footsteps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 20 minutes ago, Taj79 said: We'll have to agree to split hairs here Jim ...... first off, my first "I disagree" statement is your inclusion of VCU, Mason and Davidson on your list of "Elite 8" or better. None was in the A10 when that run took place; Mason I believe was in the Colonial and Davidson was in the Southern Conference and VCU didn't join the A10 until 2012 -- which would the year after their run. And also Colonial. My second point is a reverse disagreement of sorts for St. Joe's. Their run was in 2004 as noted; we didn't join the A10 until 2005. Therefore, just to me, what they did back then is immaterial in the way I apply the A10 to Saint Louis University. Its like me watching the great La Salle team of Larry Cannon and Billy Taylor ---- back in 1968. It is of no relevance but to me and only me. So to me, the only runs the A10 has in the fold are Dayton in 2014 and La Salle the year before that. TWO. And when I put that in the context of "what have you done for me lately," I'm out. Conversely, Umass under Calipari with Camby has no bearing either. This is really reaching. The point is (or should be) how recently the current group of A10 teams have all had success. The fact that VCU and other schools were in different conferences just a few years ago doesn't change the fact that they're in the A10 now. This is especially irrelevant for schools like Mason, VCU, and Davidson, all of whom had recent success while playing in leagues much WORSE than the current A10. Likewise, it doesn't matter that SLU wasn't in the A10 12 years ago. Yeah the A10 has been down the last couple years, but when your down year still produces three tournament teams it isn't the end of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 If you havent produced in the very recent years, it makes it really hard for recruiting. It does not matter if your program made it to the tournament years ago with different players and a different coach. However what we have going for us is a coach who has proven to push athletes from NCAA to the NBA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaLBErt Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, hsmith19 said: This is really reaching. The point is (or should be) how recently the current group of A10 teams have all had success. The fact that VCU and other schools were in different conferences just a few years ago doesn't change the fact that they're in the A10 now. This is especially true for schools like Mason, VCU, and Davidson, all of whom had recent success while playing in leagues much WORSE than the curre t A10. Likewise, it doesn't matter that SLU wasn't in the A10 12 years ago. Yeah the A10 has been down the last couple years, but when your down year still produces three tournament teams it isn't the end of the world. I think it does kind of matter because what have they done since they were in the A10? Part of their run in the tournament was the element of surprise. Being in the A10 is great for getting into the tournament but once you're there it is kind of a double edged sword. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, Glorydays2013 said: If you havent produced in the very recent years, it makes it really hard for recruiting. It does not matter if your program made it to the tournament years ago with different players and a different coach. However what we have going for us is a coach who has proven to push athletes from NCAA to the NBA. Total BS. A big factor, especially for local kids committing to SLU recently, is that these kids grew up watching SLU have success. The fact that Jordair, Kwamain, and Dwayne were all gone several years ago and Crews replaced them with flotsam wasn't enough to erase that. The shelf life of a memorable tourney run is probably close to 10 years, as that's how long it takes for young kids just starting to discover basketball to make it through high school and reach the age to commit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, TaLBErt said: I think it does kind of matter because what have they done since they were in the A10? Part of their run in the tournament was the element of surprise. Being in the A10 is great for getting into the tournament but once you're there it is kind of a double edged sword. Just my thoughts. VCU has been pretty damn good since they joined the A10. They've gone from Cinderella to a team everyone expects to be in the tourney every year, which I would say is much more valuable to their conference. Davidson also had success in the A10 at first, though not as much as VCU. George Mason I will agree with you on, since they've not been any good in the A10 and their final four run is getting close to the ancient history stage. As for Saint Joe's, their undefeated run is also close to ancient history but they had another good tourney run just a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, hsmith19 said: Total BS. A big factor, especially for local kids committing to SLU recently, is that these kids grew up watching SLU have success. The fact that Jordair, Kwamain, and Dwayne were all gone several years ago and Crews replaced them with flotsam wasn't enough to erase that. The shelf life of a memorable tourney run is probably close to 10 years, as that's how long it takes for young kids just starting to discover basketball to make it through high school and reach the age to commit. "Hey kid remember the good ole days? I know we have been trash since then, forget about the top teams who are recruiting you who HAVE produced in the past few years more than us. Why join a team that just dominated in the tournament and is projected to next year when you can take a chance on us, a team that finished bottom of the NCAA this year" players are coming for Ford and his accomplishments. Not ours from years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For-DaLove Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 15 minutes ago, Glorydays2013 said: "Hey kid remember the good ole days? I know we have been trash since then, forget about the top teams who are recruiting you who HAVE produced in the past few years more than us. Why join a team that just dominated in the tournament and is projected to next year when you can take a chance on us, a team that finished bottom of the NCAA this year" players are coming for Ford and his accomplishments. Not ours from years ago. Hmm. Our top ranked recruit in the class of 2017 has explicitly said otherwise. Was Goodwin lying about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaLBErt Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 1 minute ago, hsmith19 said: VCU has been pretty damn good since they joined the A10. They've gone from Cinderella to a team everyone expects to be in the tourney every year, which I would say is much more valuable to their conference. Davidson also had success in the A10 at first, though not as much as VCU. George Mason I will agree with you on, since they've not bern any good in the A10 and their final four run is getting close to the ancient history stage. As for Saint Joe's, their undefeated run is also close to ancient history but they had another good tourney run just a few years ago. Yeah that's true. I'm not totally on topic, but I just think it is hard to have success in the tournament being in the A10. Not because it's a bad league but I do think there is a gap between the A10 and the next best conference, and then another gap between the A10 and the conference blow them. That being said, being in the middle makes it tough to make the deep tournament run that gives a program like VCU or Butler national exposure that I think we all desire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, For-DaLove said: Hmm. Our top ranked recruit in the class of 2017 has explicitly said otherwise. Was Goodwin lying about that? Goodwin only came here for #23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, For-DaLove said: Hmm. Our top ranked recruit in the class of 2017 has explicitly said otherwise. Was Goodwin lying about that? Oh my gosh you are right. That's exactly why all the top recruits in Saint louis went elsewhere in the past 5+ years and why we were able to get top ranked Talent before the Ford era. you are SO RIGHT. It's just a coincidence that now that Ford is here, that we have attracted the best on paper talented recruiting class. Has absolutely nothing to do with Ford and has everything to do with the state of this program 4 years ago. Gordon came here over Kansas because of our history. Goodwin came here over Illinois because of our history. Bess left Michigan state and came here because of our history. GET REAL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I have no idea if this statement concerning Wade's leaving VCU is remotely true or fabrication. This came off the A-10 board. If there is any truth, this is weak. Wade bailed. He did not tell a soul other than LSU. He met with the team at 3pm to have a end of the season meeting. He did not say a word about leaving. Last I heard was the contract was waiting. He did not tell his staff or our AD. They all found out on twitter. I am moving on because I have a real good feeling right now. I wanted Mike Rhoades last go around due to what is happening at this very moment. Mike has always been a stand up man. I also love his family. Great people. Coach Rhoades is a fine person and coach. Not fake. He is real. That is what I am hanging my hat on and I think this is gonna happen. Gotta move on. Players seem to be sticking together. This was a shock and they sound like they want to adopt that us against the world attitude. If Coach Rhoades is hired I am going to be one happy camper. Just saying. If Mike Rhoades does accept the big question to me is the recruiting class. I have a feeling Wade might take Mayan Kiir. I hope that Silva, Mobley and Batts can be retained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, For-DaLove said: Hmm. Our top ranked recruit in the class of 2017 has explicitly said otherwise. Was Goodwin lying about that? That is correct. Goodwin mentioned seeing Jordair and enjoying those teams, seeing a winning team in his hometown as having an impact on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastBilliken Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 40 minutes ago, For-DaLove said: Hmm. Our top ranked recruit in the class of 2017 has explicitly said otherwise. Was Goodwin lying about that? Wait... are you telling me that if we had Crews Goodwin would still be coming here? Please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, ACE said: That is correct. Goodwin mentioned seeing Jordair and enjoying those teams, seeing a winning team in his hometown as having an impact on him. When you combine Jordair Jett + Marcus Smart you get one, Jordan Goodwin. All the pieces matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, WestCoastBilliken said: Wait... are you telling me that if we had Crews Goodwin would still be coming here? Please... "Touché" Although Goodwin was miffed that Crews hadn't offered at one point, yea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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